Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

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Joe Mauer Hall of Fame Vote

Poll ended at Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:59 am

Yes
3
38%
No
5
63%
 
Total votes: 8

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Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:59 am

Recently retired, has the credentials for the Hall of Fame as a catcher.

6 x All Star
5 x Silver Slugger
3 x Batting Champ
3 x Gold Glove
2009 MVP
.306 Average
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby AZGrizFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:03 am

nope.

Enter Clenzy....
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:04 am

AZGrizFan wrote:nope.

Enter Clenzy....


Just curious, who are the better catchers in your lifetime?

Bench, Fisk...........
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby 93henfan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:08 am

Who?
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Grizalltheway » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:15 am

93henfan wrote:Who?

The Zach Parise of baseball.

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:18 am

Grizalltheway wrote:
93henfan wrote:Who?

The Zach Parise of baseball.


I would say the Phil Housley of hockey.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:23 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:nope.

Enter Clenzy....


Just curious, who are the better catchers in your lifetime?

Bench, Fisk...........

Thurman Munson :coffee:

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Chizzang » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:32 am

Mauer was a catcher..?
Wasn't he a first baseman and DH for the last half of his career..?
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:37 am

Gil Dobie wrote:Recently retired, has the credentials for the Hall of Fame as a catcher.

6 x All Star
5 x Silver Slugger
3 x Batting Champ
3 x Gold Glove
2009 MVP
.306 Average


The thing is, do you count him as a catcher? He was only a full-time catcher (i.e. played at least half the year as a catcher) for like 6 seasons. He was a full-time 1B for 5 years, so you almost have to compare him against first basemen as well and then the comparison isn't as good.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:38 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:nope.

Enter Clenzy....


Just curious, who are the better catchers in your lifetime?

Bench, Fisk...........


Bench, Fisk, Carter, Pudge, Piazza (hitting at least). And most of those guys played catcher throughout their career, not just the first half.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 am

CAA Flagship wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Just curious, who are the better catchers in your lifetime?

Bench, Fisk...........

Thurman Munson :coffee:


I'd take Mauer, both won 3 Gold Gloves, Mauer was a better hitter when he was a catcher. Fielding pct, Mauer .995, Munson .982, passed balls Munson 93, Mauer 40, both were 5-6 points above the league average in catching runners trying to steal.

Munson had good press with winning world series titles, Mauer bad press because of his contract and concussions.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:44 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:Thurman Munson :coffee:


I'd take Mauer, both won 3 Gold Gloves, Mauer was a better hitter when he was a catcher. Fielding pct, Mauer .995, Munson .982, passed balls Munson 93, Mauer 40, both were 5-6 points above the league average in catching runners trying to steal.

Munson had good press with winning world series titles, Mauer bad press because of his contract and concussions.


Gets back to the what position did he play. Munson was a full-time catcher, playing there 10 seasons to Mauer's 6 seasons, so you're including 4 more years for Munson where he was older and more worn down from the position and comparing it to the first 6 of Mauer's career.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:45 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:Recently retired, has the credentials for the Hall of Fame as a catcher.

6 x All Star
5 x Silver Slugger
3 x Batting Champ
3 x Gold Glove
2009 MVP
.306 Average


The thing is, do you count him as a catcher? He was only a full-time catcher (i.e. played at least half the year as a catcher) for like 6 seasons. He was a full-time 1B for 5 years, so you almost have to compare him against first basemen as well and then the comparison isn't as good.


For 10 seasons, catcher was his primary position. 921 games as a catcher, 603 at first base, 310 as a DH.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:47 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I'd take Mauer, both won 3 Gold Gloves, Mauer was a better hitter when he was a catcher. Fielding pct, Mauer .995, Munson .982, passed balls Munson 93, Mauer 40, both were 5-6 points above the league average in catching runners trying to steal.

Munson had good press with winning world series titles, Mauer bad press because of his contract and concussions.


Gets back to the what position did he play. Munson was a full-time catcher, playing there 10 seasons to Mauer's 6 seasons, so you're including 4 more years for Munson where he was older and more worn down from the position and comparing it to the first 6 of Mauer's career.


Munson played 1271 games at catcher, of 1423 total.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:54 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
The thing is, do you count him as a catcher? He was only a full-time catcher (i.e. played at least half the year as a catcher) for like 6 seasons. He was a full-time 1B for 5 years, so you almost have to compare him against first basemen as well and then the comparison isn't as good.


For 10 seasons, catcher was his primary position. 921 games as a catcher, 603 at first base, 310 as a DH.


Come on, now you're stretching things to try to force the case. Heck, in your 10 seasons you're probably even including 2012 where he played 74 games at catcher and 72 games at either DH or 1B. I still go back to whether he was playing the position like other catchers, and he only played 81 games or more at catcher in any one season 6 times. IMO, when you start playing less than half the games in a season at catcher then you aren't going to be judged as a full time catcher. For reference, Ivan Rodriguez played 20 (yes, 20) seasons where he played in excess of 81 games at catcher (and often well in excess of that). That's a full time catcher, not a guy who played his early years at the position and then played elsewhere for the other half of it. Mauer's biggest problem is that people know he wasn't a full time catcher, therefore you can't just judge him versus other catchers. As a first baseman, he wasn't HOF worthy.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:55 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Just curious, who are the better catchers in your lifetime?

Bench, Fisk...........


Bench, Fisk, Carter, Pudge, Piazza (hitting at least). And most of those guys played catcher throughout their career, not just the first half.


Only Piazza had a higher batting average, .308 to .306. None of them had a higher On Base Percentage. Most of Mauer's good numbers came when he was a catcher. After the concussions and permanent position change, his numbers went down.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:57 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Gets back to the what position did he play. Munson was a full-time catcher, playing there 10 seasons to Mauer's 6 seasons, so you're including 4 more years for Munson where he was older and more worn down from the position and comparing it to the first 6 of Mauer's career.


Munson played 1271 games at catcher, of 1423 total.


So you're proving my point - Munson played 89% of his games at catcher, Mauer player 50% (50.2%) at catcher. Mauer can't just be considered as a catcher only, that's only half his story.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:58 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Bench, Fisk, Carter, Pudge, Piazza (hitting at least). And most of those guys played catcher throughout their career, not just the first half.


Only Piazza had a higher batting average, .308 to .306. None of them had a higher On Base Percentage. Most of Mauer's good numbers came when he was a catcher. After the concussions and permanent position change, his numbers went down.


And all those other guys played their whole careers, or most of it, at catcher. Their numbers came down as they aged but were still playing the position. Mauer's not getting into the HOF based on playing catcher for 6 years when we have almost the same amount of time playing other positions where he wasn't a HOF'er.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
For 10 seasons, catcher was his primary position. 921 games as a catcher, 603 at first base, 310 as a DH.


Come on, now you're stretching things to try to force the case. Heck, in your 10 seasons you're probably even including 2012 where he played 74 games at catcher and 72 games at either DH or 1B. I still go back to whether he was playing the position like other catchers, and he only played 81 games or more at catcher in any one season 6 times. IMO, when you start playing less than half the games in a season at catcher then you aren't going to be judged as a full time catcher. For reference, Ivan Rodriguez played 20 (yes, 20) seasons where he played in excess of 81 games at catcher (and often well in excess of that). That's a full time catcher, not a guy who played his early years at the position and then played elsewhere for the other half of it. Mauer's biggest problem is that people know he wasn't a full time catcher, therefore you can't just judge him versus other catchers. As a first baseman, he wasn't HOF worthy.


It's good that you are comparing him to Hall of Famers. Mauer didn't play first base until his 8th season, at 28 years old. He played more than half his games, that he was healthy enough to play, at catcher in 10 seasons.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:02 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Come on, now you're stretching things to try to force the case. Heck, in your 10 seasons you're probably even including 2012 where he played 74 games at catcher and 72 games at either DH or 1B. I still go back to whether he was playing the position like other catchers, and he only played 81 games or more at catcher in any one season 6 times. IMO, when you start playing less than half the games in a season at catcher then you aren't going to be judged as a full time catcher. For reference, Ivan Rodriguez played 20 (yes, 20) seasons where he played in excess of 81 games at catcher (and often well in excess of that). That's a full time catcher, not a guy who played his early years at the position and then played elsewhere for the other half of it. Mauer's biggest problem is that people know he wasn't a full time catcher, therefore you can't just judge him versus other catchers. As a first baseman, he wasn't HOF worthy.


It's good that you are comparing him to Hall of Famers. Mauer didn't play first base until his 8th season, at 28 years old. He played more than half his games, that he was healthy enough to play, at catcher in 10 seasons.


And his health is a knock against his HOF case as well. It's a shame, but if you're not able to play we can't just assume that you would've had great numbers. Those extra 4 years you're giving him for playing catcher are a fraction of what healthy players were playing. Injuries suck but it's a reality that has to be dealt with.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:04 am

Chizzang wrote:Mauer was a catcher..?
Wasn't he a first baseman and DH for the last half of his career..?


He had his best days when he was a catcher. Had he retired instead of switching positions, the argument might be different to others. Guess he had $23 million reasons a year to continue to play.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:05 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
Chizzang wrote:Mauer was a catcher..?
Wasn't he a first baseman and DH for the last half of his career..?


He had his best days when he was a catcher. Had he retired instead of switching positions, the argument might be different to others. Guess he had $23 million reasons a year to continue to play.


And if he had only played those 6 years as a catcher he still wouldn't have made the HOF since unless you're a Sandy Koufax (and Mauer was not the Koufax of catchers) then that's not going to be long enough to make a HOF case.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:10 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
He had his best days when he was a catcher. Had he retired instead of switching positions, the argument might be different to others. Guess he had $23 million reasons a year to continue to play.


And if he had only played those 6 years as a catcher he still wouldn't have made the HOF since unless you're a Sandy Koufax (and Mauer was not the Koufax of catchers) then that's not going to be long enough to make a HOF case.


If Mauer had retired at age 30, he would be a clear cut HOFer, IMO. Only 50+ games at first base. Mauer had a .323 career average after the 2013 season.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby AZGrizFan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:06 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Bench, Fisk, Carter, Pudge, Piazza (hitting at least). And most of those guys played catcher throughout their career, not just the first half.


Only Piazza had a higher batting average, .308 to .306. None of them had a higher On Base Percentage. Most of Mauer's good numbers came when he was a catcher. After the concussions and permanent position change, his numbers went down.


Piazza had a higher BA. And about 300 more home runs. over 400 more RBI. OPS 100 points higher.
And played 1629 games at Catcher, just 70 at 1B, and 122 as a DH. 12 Silver Sluggers to 5 for Mauer...14 All Star games to 6 for Mauer...

Honestly, it's not even close. Mauer is not a hall of famer...
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:15 pm

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Only Piazza had a higher batting average, .308 to .306. None of them had a higher On Base Percentage. Most of Mauer's good numbers came when he was a catcher. After the concussions and permanent position change, his numbers went down.


Piazza had a higher BA. And about 400 more home runs.


He had a lower fielding percentage, lower than the league average in throwing out runners, actually 8 points below the league average. Easy to steal a base off of, and never won a gold glove.
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