Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

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Joe Mauer Hall of Fame Vote

Poll ended at Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:59 am

Yes
3
38%
No
5
63%
 
Total votes: 8

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:24 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
He was primarily a catcher his for the first 10 years of his career. If he would have retired after 10 years, would he be HOF worthy to you? Name another AL catcher that won a batting title, let alone 3, as a catcher? If you play the games per season game, Johnny Bench played 10, Lombardi 12 and Roy Campanella just shy of 8. Catchers don't play every day.


Slap-hitting catchers will never be HOF-worthy. :coffee:


Ernie Lombardi?
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:36 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Yes, he had a great career as a catcher, no one is arguing that. The argument has always been that Mauer only played predominately catcher for something like 6 years of his career. The rest was played at 1B and DH. He doesn't have HOF stats at those positions, which were at least half of his career. If he hadn't have been so injured and if he could've played a lot more years at catcher with those stats he'd be a shoo-in for the HOF. That didn't happen, and unfortunately he looks to be on the outside looking in.


He was primarily a catcher his for the first 10 years of his career. If he would have retired after 10 years, would he be HOF worthy to you? Name another AL catcher that won a batting title, let alone 3, as a catcher? If you play the games per season game, Johnny Bench played 10, Lombardi 12 and Roy Campanella just shy of 8. Catchers don't play every day.


Here's my take from earlier in the thread when we had the same discussion...


Gannonfan wrote:Come on, now you're stretching things to try to force the case. Heck, in your 10 seasons you're probably even including 2012 where he played 74 games at catcher and 72 games at either DH or 1B. I still go back to whether he was playing the position like other catchers, and he only played 81 games or more at catcher in any one season 6 times. IMO, when you start playing less than half the games in a season at catcher then you aren't going to be judged as a full time catcher. For reference, Ivan Rodriguez played 20 (yes, 20) seasons where he played in excess of 81 games at catcher (and often well in excess of that). That's a full time catcher, not a guy who played his early years at the position and then played elsewhere for the other half of it. Mauer's biggest problem is that people know he wasn't a full time catcher, therefore you can't just judge him versus other catchers. As a first baseman, he wasn't HOF worthy.


The dude just wasn't a catcher enough for him to be compared to other catchers when deciding HOF inclusion.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:59 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
He was primarily a catcher his for the first 10 years of his career. If he would have retired after 10 years, would he be HOF worthy to you? Name another AL catcher that won a batting title, let alone 3, as a catcher? If you play the games per season game, Johnny Bench played 10, Lombardi 12 and Roy Campanella just shy of 8. Catchers don't play every day.


Here's my take from earlier in the thread when we had the same discussion...


Gannonfan wrote:Come on, now you're stretching things to try to force the case. Heck, in your 10 seasons you're probably even including 2012 where he played 74 games at catcher and 72 games at either DH or 1B. I still go back to whether he was playing the position like other catchers, and he only played 81 games or more at catcher in any one season 6 times. IMO, when you start playing less than half the games in a season at catcher then you aren't going to be judged as a full time catcher. For reference, Ivan Rodriguez played 20 (yes, 20) seasons where he played in excess of 81 games at catcher (and often well in excess of that). That's a full time catcher, not a guy who played his early years at the position and then played elsewhere for the other half of it. Mauer's biggest problem is that people know he wasn't a full time catcher, therefore you can't just judge him versus other catchers. As a first baseman, he wasn't HOF worthy.


The dude just wasn't a catcher enough for him to be compared to other catchers when deciding HOF inclusion.


I-Rod was a bulky, muscular looking catcher before they started testing for Roids. So 921 games as a catcher, is not enough to compare to any other catcher. He still has the best average for a player while playing catcher.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby css75 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm

AZGrizFan wrote:A year later and he still doesn't belong.



What about Harold Baines, do you consider him a legit gamer?


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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:23 pm

css75 wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:A year later and he still doesn't belong.



What about Harold Baines, do you consider him a legit gamer?


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Hall of Fame catcher Rick Ferrell: .281 average, 1962 hits, 45 Home Runs.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby JoltinJoe » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:11 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:Thurman Munson :coffee:


I'd take Mauer, both won 3 Gold Gloves, Mauer was a better hitter when he was a catcher. Fielding pct, Mauer .995, Munson .982, passed balls Munson 93, Mauer 40, both were 5-6 points above the league average in catching runners trying to steal.

Munson had good press with winning world series titles, Mauer bad press because of his contract and concussions.


Munson and Mauer are an interesting comparison. Munson was nearly a full-time catcher for 10 seasons. Even in his first 10 seasons, Mauer DHed a lot more than Munson ever did. Munson played in 1,311 games in 10 full seasons. He caught in 1,278 of them. Mauer was a "catcher" for 11 of his seasons, but caught in only 921 of his games in his career. So Munson caught in 357 games than Mauer over a comparable period, which places the passed balls number in a different perspective.

10-Year War as Catcher: Munson 46.1; Mauer 44.

I think Mauer should make the Hall, but Munson has a better case. Rookie of the Year; MVP; seven-time All-Star; three Gold Gloves. And, if you ever want to look at Catchers' ERA, look out. Munson's numbers are eye popping. (I think Catchers' ERA has relevance, despite some of the obvious limitations of the stat).

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby css75 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:20 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
css75 wrote:

What about Harold Baines, do you consider him a legit gamer?


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Hall of Fame catcher Rick Ferrell: .281 average, 1962 hits, 45 Home Runs.


At least he was a catcher, Baines was a DH, mainly because he was a clank with the glove.


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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 am

JoltinJoe wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I'd take Mauer, both won 3 Gold Gloves, Mauer was a better hitter when he was a catcher. Fielding pct, Mauer .995, Munson .982, passed balls Munson 93, Mauer 40, both were 5-6 points above the league average in catching runners trying to steal.

Munson had good press with winning world series titles, Mauer bad press because of his contract and concussions.


Munson and Mauer are an interesting comparison. Munson was nearly a full-time catcher for 10 seasons. Even in his first 10 seasons, Mauer DHed a lot more than Munson ever did. Munson played in 1,311 games in 10 full seasons. He caught in 1,278 of them. Mauer was a "catcher" for 11 of his seasons, but caught in only 921 of his games in his career. So Munson caught in 357 games than Mauer over a comparable period, which places the passed balls number in a different perspective.

10-Year War as Catcher: Munson 46.1; Mauer 44.

I think Mauer should make the Hall, but Munson has a better case. Rookie of the Year; MVP; seven-time All-Star; three Gold Gloves. And, if you ever want to look at Catchers' ERA, look out. Munson's numbers are eye popping. (I think Catchers' ERA has relevance, despite some of the obvious limitations of the stat).


Munson and Mauer are pretty close. Not sure why Munson isn't in the Hall. Both were MVP's, both won 3 Gold Gloves. Munson was a ROY, Mauer won 5 silver slugger awards and 3 batting titles. Mauer finished in the top 10 MVP voting 4 times, Munson 3. Munson 7 all-star appearances, Mauer 5.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby AZGrizFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:55 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Slap-hitting catchers will never be HOF-worthy. :coffee:


Ernie Lombardi?


Slap-hitting catchers from the live ball era.....to be exact.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:21 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Ernie Lombardi?


Slap-hitting catchers from the live ball era.....to be exact.


Yadier Molina has a good chance to get in, and maybe Buster Posey.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby AZGrizFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:30 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Slap-hitting catchers from the live ball era.....to be exact.


Yadier Molina has a good chance to get in, and maybe Buster Posey.


I don't think either will sniff the HOF.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:40 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Yadier Molina has a good chance to get in, and maybe Buster Posey.


I don't think either will sniff the HOF.


I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:00 pm

GannonFan wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
I don't think either will sniff the HOF.


I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.


Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4
6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6
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Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby css75 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:10 pm

GannonFan wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
I don't think either will sniff the HOF.


I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.


The bar got lowered with the election of guys like Baines, Niekro, Sutton, and many other very good, but not great players. I would pull about 1/4 of them out at least.


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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:24 pm

css75 wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.



The bar got lowered with the election of guys like Baines, Niekro, Sutton, and many other very good, but not great players. I would pull about 1/4 of them out at least.


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Niekro is actually ranked 15 by sabermetrics, while Sutton is 72nd for pitchers. Part of it is lifetime achievement. Baines is 74th for Right Field, behind such notables like Shawn Green, Kirk Gibson, Nelson Cruz, Ken Singleton etc.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:34 pm

css75 wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.


The bar got lowered with the election of guys like Baines, Niekro, Sutton, and many other very good, but not great players. I would pull about 1/4 of them out at least.


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There's always going to be a mistake here or there, like Baines was. Doesn't mean we keep compounding that mistake.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby GannonFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:34 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.


Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4
6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6


He's not a career catcher.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:37 pm

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4
6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6


He's not a career catcher.


His best years and stats came as a catcher.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby AZGrizFan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:06 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
I agree, those two aren't close to being HOF'ers, especially Molina. Good ball players and nice careers, but HOF should be pretty exclusive. Those guys ain't it.


Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4

6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6


That's where the line should be drawn.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:29 pm

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4

6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6


That's where the line should be drawn.


You just lost me. Cutting off a 15 time All-Star, 10 Rings, 3 MVP's. No Roy Campanella, another 3 time MVP.
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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby JoltinJoe » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:32 pm

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Sabermetrics calculation for Hall of Fame worthiness of the top 20 rated catchers of all-time.

1 Johnny Bench HOF 61.2
2 Gary Carter HOF 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez HOF 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk HOF 53.0
5 Mike Piazza HOF 51.4

6 Yogi Berra HOF 49.0
7 Bill Dickey HOF 47.3
8 Joe Mauer 47.0
9 Gabby Hartnett HOF 46.7
10 Ted Simmons 42.6
11 Mickey Cochrane HOF 42.1
12 Thurman Munson 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 40.9
14 Buck Ewing HOF 39.4
15 Bill Freehan 39.3
16 Buster Posey 39.2
17 Ernie Lombardi HOF 37.8
18 Wally Schang 37.8
19 Jorge Posada 37.7
20 Roger Bresnahan HOF 36.6


That's where the line should be drawn.


Well, first of all, not sure where Gil got his WAR numbers, but they are not the same as the WAR numbers on Baseball Reference.com.

But where you've drawn the line, you've included a steroid wonder (Pudge Rodriguez); a compiler (Fisk); and a guy who should have grabbed a first basemen's mitt, given his defensive limitations as a catcher (Piazza). I would take Munson over Fisk or Piazza behind the dish any day; and I would take him over the non-steroid Pudge too.

You've left Yogi Berra, one of two All-Century catchers, out? Seriously?

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby JoltinJoe » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:35 pm

And I chuckle when people call Gene Tenace a catcher.

The guy caught in only 57% of his games. He was an awful defensive catcher (like Ted Simmons). He got moved by Dick Williams from the behind the plate, to make room for Ray Fosse (who could actually play catcher).

Look at the starts in the '73 World Series. In big games, who did Williams start behind the plate?

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby css75 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:45 pm

Ok, I just went back and reviewed all hall of farmers. Ones I never heard of I did not rank. I started following in 1962, so I seen at least on tv all since then. I did not worry about managers, execs, etc., only players. The requirement of all time great started to slide in the 90s and more make my list the further we go.

Ashburn 1995, while very good he certainly was not elite. Having friends as a broadcaster probably helped him a lot.

Niekro and Sutton 1999. While very consistently good, neither were great in their era, but their longevity got them in.

Perez 2000, I still struggle on him. His totals weren’t great .279 and 379 hr, but he was pre-steroid era. Rice 2009 also falls into this area, though average .298 higher.

Mazeroski 2001. Him and Baines are the weakest. 1 big homer and good defense are not enough.

Molitor 2004 Very good not great.

Trammel 2011 same as Molitor

Larkin and Santo 2012 both fall into very good category, broadcasting helped Santo a lot

Piazza 2016 not a very good catcher, but a solid power hitter. Also, did he get some help after first 2 minor league seasons, which were not good.

Bagwell and Rodriguez 2017 steroids in play here?

Hoffman 2018 I just didn’t think he was all that good, blew lead in 2007 play in game.

One omission that I feel should’ve in: Maury Wills, he totally changed the game in early 60s, bringing speed back to it. Without him Henderson, Brock and others might never have had the impact they did.






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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby JoltinJoe » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:47 pm

Let's watch Hall of Famer Mike Piazza make his biggest defensive play of his career: 9th inning of Game 5 of the 2000 World Series. Game is tied 2-2; Met's starter Al Leiter is gutting it out on his 142nd pitch of the night. Luis Sojo bleeds one through the IF, but Mets CF Jay Payton charges the ball and makes a great throw that is going to nail Jorge Posada at the plate.

But wait. Hall of Famer Mike Piazza makes the cardinal defensive sin of allowing the runner to get in between him and the throw. Why isn't he in front of the plate, so he can catch Payton's bulls' eye pea and slap Posada with the tag? Well, because he sucked, that's why. As my old HS coach use to say, if the ball hits the runner, that means he could have been out.

For good measure, due to Piazza's suckdom, an insurance run crosses the plate, pretty much ending the Mets' dreams.



Touch them all, Mike. You'll never blow a bigger play.

Now let's watch a guy who won two World Series show how you defend a play like this at the plate. When defending at a base, NEVER let the runner get in between you and the throw. NEVER.

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Re: Joe Mauer Hall of Famer?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:56 pm

JoltinJoe wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
That's where the line should be drawn.


Well, first of all, not sure where Gil got his WAR numbers, but they are not the same as the WAR numbers on Baseball Reference.com.

But where you've drawn the line, you've included a steroid wonder (Pudge Rodriguez); a compiler (Fisk); and a guy who should have grabbed a first basemen's mitt, given his defensive limitations as a catcher (Piazza). I would take Munson over Fisk or Piazza behind the dish any day; and I would take him over the non-steroid Pudge too.

You've left Yogi Berra, one of two All-Century catchers, out? Seriously?


It's a calculation of WAR, called JAWS, used to calculate HOF worthiness of players. If you look at the baseball reference page and find the spot for HOF JAWS for the players position.
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