2020 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[dbackjon]

Wins are an over-rated stat for pitchers. Playoff wins as well, given the team dynamics of the sport.

Prime example - 2009 Post-season. Pettite went 2-0 in the World Series, but didn't pitch well - the Yankees out-slugged the Phillies and had an excellent bullpen.

Pettite doesn't measure up particularly well in most HOF standards, except ones that over value wins.

However, he likely will get in eventually do to the win factor.

[89Hen]

Wins are an over-rated stat for pitchers.

* can be

Mike Mussina with 19 wins on a 71-73 Orioles team is a pretty good stat.

[Gil Dobie]

Wins are an over-rated stat for pitchers.

* can be

Mike Mussina with 19 wins on a 71-73 Orioles team is a pretty good stat.

Almost there with Steve Carlton 27 wins on a 59 win Phillies team.

[89Hen]

* can be

Mike Mussina with 19 wins on a 71-73 Orioles team is a pretty good stat.

Almost there with Steve Carlton 27 wins on a 59 win Phillies team.

[UNI88]

I don't really care, but propping up a record for post season wins for 150 years when for the first 100 years there was only one best of 7 requires an awfully large asterisk IMO.

strong point
it's kinda the inverse argument about Bigfoot
before everybody had a phone on their camera - there were a lot of sightings - now days - not so much

Before their were 3 rounds of playoffs
a playoff win had more significant value

agreed...

I see Bigfoot all the time in Oregon. Squatch and Yeti are everywhere.

[Chizzang]

strong point
it's kinda the inverse argument about Bigfoot
before everybody had a phone on their camera - there were a lot of sightings - now days - not so much

Before their were 3 rounds of playoffs
a playoff win had more significant value

agreed...

I see Bigfoot all the time in Oregon. Squatch and Yeti are everywhere.

[UNI88]

I see Bigfoot all the time in Oregon. Squatch and Yeti are everywhere.

They're ubiquitous ...

[UNI88]

I see Bigfoot all the time in Oregon. Squatch and Yeti are everywhere.

Here they are not far from Bend ...

[CAA Flagship]

Wins are an over-rated stat for pitchers. Playoff wins as well, given the team dynamics of the sport.

Prime example - 2009 Post-season. Pettite went 2-0 in the World Series, but didn't pitch well - the Yankees out-slugged the Phillies and had an excellent bullpen.

Pettite doesn't measure up particularly well in most HOF standards, except ones that over value wins.

However, he likely will get in eventually do to the win factor.

Agree. I wish there was a good way to determine run support. If there was, you could look at wins along with ERA and run support to get a better handle on the wins.

In general, I'm a WHIP guy. Your job as a pitcher is to get outs. The only problem with WHIP though is that it doesn't include HBP and doesn't account for errors like ERA does. But as sample sizes get bigger, ERA and WHIP are fine. You also have to make an adjustment for pitchers batting in the NL.

[JoltinJoe]

I don't agree that wins are over-rated. I mean, "Ws" are the big thing in the standings.

I do agree wins were more significant when starters were expected to go 7+ innings.

Today, if I see a guy with a lot of wins, and a lot of innings pitched (200+), I see a guy who goes deep into games, and actually delivers the "W" -- rather than a guy who depends on the middle-inning relievers. Pettitte meets that test. Pettitte's ERA seems high by HOF standards, but his ERA+ is 117. This reflects that he pitched in a highly-charged offensive era, and also pitched in a lot of "batter's ballparks." He did win 256 games; won a ton of post-season games; and has a career winning percentage of .685.

If he played for any other team than the Yankees, he'd be in already. But the argument is that he benefited a lot by playing for the Yankees (which is true).

And, of course, there is always the anti-Yankee bias at work. I mean, two Yankees have "Hall of Fame Monitor Scores" of 134 and haven't come close to making the Hall. (According to Bill James, a HOF monitor score of "100" is a likely Hall of Famer; "134" is a "lock").

There are only three players already eligible for the Hall, without any steroid taint, with scores of 130 or more, who are not in the Hall. So if the Yankees can't even get players who should be "locks" into the Hall, then I don't have much hope that Pettitte gets it. (Pettitte's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 128; not a "lock," but well above a "likely" Hall of Famer). (The other player is Steve Garvey (131), who should be in the Hall, and would have been elected a long time ago but for his personal scandals that pissed off the writers, who had always bought into his "golden boy" image).

I do think it is great that the Yankees -- understanding the anti-Yankee bias at work in the Hall of Fame process -- retire the numbers of players with Hall of Fame Monitor Scores that indicate that they should be in the Hall. I mean, having your number retired by the Yankees is truly the greatest honor in all of sports. The Hall of Fame is secondary.

[CAA Flagship]

Regarding Pettitte and wins, here is a list of active pitchers with the most wins. Not sure how many will surpass the 256 that Pettitte has.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... tive.shtml


And here is where he sits on the all-time wins list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ns_leaders


Again, the Pettitte case is very interesting. There are so many pluses and minuses.

[Ivytalk]

Regarding Pettitte and wins, here is a list of active pitchers with the most wins. Not sure how many will surpass the 256 that Pettitte has.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... tive.shtml


And here is where he sits on the all-time wins list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ns_leaders


Again, the Pettitte case is very interesting. There are so many pluses and minuses.

Not sure we’ll ever see another 300-game winner, with 5-Man rotations and coddling of starters (pitch counts, etc.). Who was the last one?

[SuperHornet]

Regarding Pettitte and wins, here is a list of active pitchers with the most wins. Not sure how many will surpass the 256 that Pettitte has.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... tive.shtml


And here is where he sits on the all-time wins list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ns_leaders


Again, the Pettitte case is very interesting. There are so many pluses and minuses.

Not sure we’ll ever see another 300-game winner, with 5-Man rotations and coddling of starters (pitch counts, etc.). Who was the last one?

Including this bogus new definition of "quality start," setting the bar at six bloody innings. You finish what you start. Period....

[Gil Dobie]

Regarding Pettitte and wins, here is a list of active pitchers with the most wins. Not sure how many will surpass the 256 that Pettitte has.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... tive.shtml


And here is where he sits on the all-time wins list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ns_leaders


Again, the Pettitte case is very interesting. There are so many pluses and minuses.

Not sure we’ll ever see another 300-game winner, with 5-Man rotations and coddling of starters (pitch counts, etc.). Who was the last one?

Verlander needs to average 19 wins the next 4 years.

[GannonFan]

Pettitte was a cheater, that's his issue. It's tough to get in the hall when you use the juice. Or at least it should be.

[tribe_pride]

With an additional 22 ballots over original posters, Schilling gained in % while Bonds and Clemens dropped so that Bonds is on the cusp and Clemens is out. Think both will wind up out this year but in next year. Very weak 1st timers on the ballot next year. Would be interesting to see a Bonds/Clemens class and see how people react to that one.

Public Ballots: 131
Anonymous Ballots: 4
% of Ballots Known: 32.8%
"Last Updated:
1/6/2020 at 08:21 PST"
Derek Jeter 100.0%
Larry Walker 84.4%
Curt Schilling 80.0%
Barry Bonds 75.6%
Roger Clemens 74.1%
Scott Rolen 49.6%
Omar Vizquel 45.2%
Gary Sheffield 39.3%
Manny Ramirez 35.6%
Todd Helton 35.6%
Billy Wagner 31.9%
Jeff Kent 27.4%
Andruw Jones 27.4%
Sammy Sosa 19.3%
Andy Pettitte 12.6%
Bobby Abreu 6.7%
Cliff Lee 0.7%
Paul Konerko 0.7%
Jason Giambi 0.7%
Eric Chávez 0.0%
Rafael Furcal 0.0%
Alfonso Soriano 0.0%
Josh Beckett 0.0%
Heath Bell 0.0%
Adam Dunn 0.0%
Chone Figgins 0.0%
Raúl Ibañez 0.0%
Carlos Peña 0.0%
Brad Penny 0.0%
JJ Putz 0.0%
Brian Roberts 0.0%
José Valverde 0.0%

[JoltinJoe]

Pettitte was a cheater, that's his issue. It's tough to get in the hall when you use the juice. Or at least it should be.

He used HGH twice while rehabbing in 2002. Yea, throw out his entire career.

Statutory Rapist Mitchell should have been embarrassed to include Pettitte in his "report," but he was a Red Sox hack trying to inflict damage on the Yankees.

[Chizzang]

Pettitte was a cheater, that's his issue. It's tough to get in the hall when you use the juice. Or at least it should be.

He used HGH twice while rehabbing in 2002. Yea, throw out his entire career.

Statutory Rapist Mitchell should have been embarrassed to include Pettitte in his "report," but he was a Red Sox hack trying to inflict damage on the Yankees.

I'm a Red Sox fan and I cannot imagine the Hall of Fame without that guy...

[AZGrizFan]

I believe the last 300 game winner was Randy Johnson.

[dbackjon]

I believe the last 300 game winner was Randy Johnson.

You are correct - June 4, 2009

Before that it was Tom Glavine, 8/5/2007

Only four this century:
Clemens, Maddux, Glavine and Johnson

By Decade (Accepted, not JJ defination )
1880's = 1
1890's - 4
1900's - 2
1910's - 2
1920's - 2
1930's - 0
1940's - 1
1950's - 0
1960's - 2
1970's - 0
1980's - 5
1990's - 1
2000's - 4
2010's - 0

[dbackjon]

There are only 2 pitchers active with 200+ wins:

Verlander - 225
Greinke - 205

Both are 36 - Randy Johnson had 190 wins at that age

[AZGrizFan]

There are only 2 pitchers active with 200+ wins:

Verlander - 225
Greinke - 205

Both are 36 - Randy Johnson had 190 wins at that age

I think it’s likely that Verlander gets there. Probable that Greinke gets there.

[CAA Flagship]

Pettitte was a cheater, that's his issue. It's tough to get in the hall when you use the juice. Or at least it should be.

Yup. But he is in a different class of cheater when compared to most of the others. He was one of the few that didn't do it for performance enhancing. He did it to heal faster from and injury to get back on the field sooner.

Still not right, but that's a significant difference.
It's like speeding to get away from an erratic driver. Still wrong since you had the option of slowing down to put distance between you and the erratic driver.

[JoltinJoe]

Pettitte was a cheater, that's his issue. It's tough to get in the hall when you use the juice. Or at least it should be.

Yup. But he is in a different class of cheater when compared to most of the others. He was one of the few that didn't do it for performance enhancing. He did it to heal faster from and injury to get back on the field sooner.

Still not right, but that's a significant difference.
It's like speeding to get away from an erratic driver. Still wrong since you had the option of slowing down to put distance between you and the erratic driver.

What's appropriate for rehab is a medical issue. A high school soccer player my son knows suffered a cartilage tear in his knee. His doctor recommended treating it with HGH. When the parents said they had reservations, because HGH is banned by the state athletics board, he responded (paraphrasing), "I'm a doctor. They're not. People who aren't doctors shouldn't be practicing medicine."

[CAA Flagship]

I'm a Red Sox fan and I cannot imagine the Hall of Fame without that guy...

Here's the problem. Usually you look to determine where the HOF candidate ranks with others in his era.

Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina, Johnson, Pedro, Clemens, Moyer, Halladay, Schilling, Sabathia, Colon, Moyer, Wakefield, and several others had part of their prime years overlap with Pettitte's prime years. I think there are 83 pitchers in the HOF now. That includes 7 listed above.
How deep can you go? If you say 10, he would have to be better than Clemens, Schilling, or Sabathia.
It's a great debate.