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CAA Flagship wrote:

Chizzang wrote:
I'm a Red Sox fan and I cannot imagine the Hall of Fame without that guy...

Here's the problem. Usually you look to determine where the HOF candidate ranks with others in his era.

Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina, Johnson, Pedro, Clemens, Moyer, Halladay, Schilling, Sabathia, Colon, Moyer, Wakefield, and several others had part of their prime years overlap with Pettitte's prime years. I think there are 83 pitchers in the HOF now. That includes 7 listed above.
How deep can you go? If you say 10, he would have to be better than Clemens, Schilling, or Sabathia.
It's a great debate.

Bottom line is this: he was a Yankee, so he's out. If you principally played as a Yankee, your case has to be perfect to get into the Hall. It's why a guy like Kirby Puckett, who had a short career that ended due to injury is in, and why Don Mattingly, who had a short career that ended to due injury, is out. Look at their career numbers. Practically identical. But one was a Yankee.

Poor Yankees.

JoltinJoe wrote:
Bottom line is this: he was a Yankee, so he's out. If you principally played as a Yankee, your case has to be perfect to get into the Hall. It's why a guy like Kirby Puckett, who had a short career that ended due to injury is in, and why Don Mattingly, who had a short career that ended to due injury, is out. Look at their career numbers. Practically identical. But one was a Yankee.

Funny thing about Mattingly: When I was in college in Norfolk, as a Yankee fan I would always go to a game when the Columbus Clippers were in town to play the Tidewater Tides (Mets). Saw some great players on both teams. When I saw Mattingly, he was a little known outfielder on Columbus. I think at that time they had Steve Balboni and a guy named Marshall Brant playing first base. And they both hit a boat load of homers. I remember being shocked when Mattingly got called up to the Yankees and moved to first base. Turned out to be a great move obviously with 9 Gold Gloves.

Fun fact: Mattingly played every OF position as well as 1B, 2B, and 3B for the Yankees.

JoltinJoe wrote:
Bottom line is this: he was a Yankee, so he's out. If you principally played as a Yankee, your case has to be perfect to get into the Hall. It's why a guy like Kirby Puckett, who had a short career that ended due to injury is in, and why Don Mattingly, who had a short career that ended to due injury, is out. Look at their career numbers. Practically identical. But one was a Yankee.

Trying the old Puckett reach-around again I see. Mattingly had 6 good season out of 14. He played 1st base compared to Centerfield. Puckett made 10 all-star teams in 12 season, Mattingly 6 in 14, and Puckett lead his team to 2 World Series Championships. Mattingly was the original Joe Mauer as people on this site point out. Great early career, not so great last 6 years. Puckett has a higher Average, higher WAR, more hits and is close to Mattingly in power stats, even thou he wasn't a power hitter. Puckett would carry the Twins on his back, Mattingly made 1 playoff.

I would have no problem with Mattingly in the HOF, but he's no Kirby Puckett.

Gil Dobie wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Bottom line is this: he was a Yankee, so he's out. If you principally played as a Yankee, your case has to be perfect to get into the Hall. It's why a guy like Kirby Puckett, who had a short career that ended due to injury is in, and why Don Mattingly, who had a short career that ended to due injury, is out. Look at their career numbers. Practically identical. But one was a Yankee.

Trying the old Puckett reach-around again I see. Mattingly had 6 good season out of 14. He played 1st base compared to Centerfield. Puckett made 10 all-star teams in 12 season, Mattingly 6 in 14, and Puckett lead his team to 2 World Series Championships. Mattingly was the original Joe Mauer as people on this site point out. Great early career, not so great last 6 years. Puckett has a higher Average, higher WAR, more hits and is close to Mattingly in power stats, even thou he wasn't a power hitter. Puckett would carry the Twins on his back, Mattingly made 1 playoff.

I would have no problem with Mattingly in the HOF, but he's no Kirby Puckett.

Mattingly was the greatest player in the game for five to six years. Puckett was never as good as that. And Mattingly wasn't a shitty person.

And mentioning World Series? I mean, when we point out Munson was the most valuable player on back-to-back World Champions, and hit .371 in post-season play, we're told championships don't matter.

More accurately, championships and post-season matter -- unless you're a Yankee.

Thanks for posting and proving my points.

JoltinJoe wrote: Mattingly was the greatest player in the game for five to six years. Puckett was never as good as that. And Mattingly wasn't a shitty person.

What "five to six years" would THAT be?

AZGrizFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote: Mattingly was the greatest player in the game for five to six years. Puckett was never as good as that. And Mattingly wasn't a shitty person.

What "five to six years" would THAT be?

Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

JoltinJoe wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
Trying the old Puckett reach-around again I see. Mattingly had 6 good season out of 14. He played 1st base compared to Centerfield. Puckett made 10 all-star teams in 12 season, Mattingly 6 in 14, and Puckett lead his team to 2 World Series Championships. Mattingly was the original Joe Mauer as people on this site point out. Great early career, not so great last 6 years. Puckett has a higher Average, higher WAR, more hits and is close to Mattingly in power stats, even thou he wasn't a power hitter. Puckett would carry the Twins on his back, Mattingly made 1 playoff.

I would have no problem with Mattingly in the HOF, but he's no Kirby Puckett.

Mattingly was the greatest player in the game for five to six years. Puckett was never as good as that. And Mattingly wasn't a shitty person.

And mentioning World Series? I mean, when we point out Munson was the most valuable player on back-to-back World Champions, and hit .371 in post-season play, we're told championships don't matter.

More accurately, championships and post-season matter -- unless you're a Yankee.

Thanks for posting and proving my points.

I have no problem with Munson either, and Puckett wasn't a shitty person. I haven't met Mattingly, but I've met Puckett and know his friends, he's was always a good person. I have never heard anything bad about Puckett other than the Klobuchar witch hunt. Throwing dirt towards Puckett doesn't make Mattingly any better. Puckett was acquitted of the BS charges by Amy Klobuchar. It was basically he said, she said. You are blind to the facts about how good Puckett was beyond the stats. You need to find someone else that fits Mattingly's profile better than Puckett, maybe another first basemen.

JoltinJoe wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:


What "five to six years" would THAT be?

Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

That was one year. 1986. I’ll give you 85, 86 and 87. Beyond that? It’s a real stretch to say 5-6 years....

JoltinJoe wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:


What "five to six years" would THAT be?

Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

Let’s play this game with different variables, shall we?

1. SAT Score

2. “Likely admission to Harvard”

3. “Unless you are Asian”

Ivytalk wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

Let’s play this game with different variables, shall we?

1. SAT Score

2. “Likely admission to Harvard”

3. “Unless you are Asian”

This comparison is 100% accurate. Mattingly is like an Asian trying to get into Harvard.

JoltinJoe wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:


What "five to six years" would THAT be?

Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

According to Baseball Reference he's a similar batter to 10 other players, 9 of whom are also not in the HOF. Interestingly, the only similar batter who is in the HOF on that list is Kirby Puckett, but since you said he doesn't belong in the HOF then that hurts Donnie's case.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... do01.shtml

With another 20 votes (155) 37.6% of total, Jeter still at 100%, Walker and Schilling staying strong at 80%+ but Bonds and Clemens are now both below the line at 74.8% and 73.5%. Will be interesting to see if they even stay above 70% at this point. As said before, with nobody of interest next year, I see them missing this year but getting voted in next year.

Public Ballots: 148
Anonymous Ballots: 7
% of Ballots Known: 37.6%
"Last Updated:
1/16/2020 at 06:55 PST"
Derek Jeter 100.0%
Larry Walker 85.2%
Curt Schilling 80.0%
Barry Bonds 74.8%
Roger Clemens 73.5%
Scott Rolen 50.3%
Omar Vizquel 45.8%
Gary Sheffield 39.4%
Todd Helton 36.1%
Manny Ramirez 35.5%
Billy Wagner 32.9%
Jeff Kent 28.4%
Andruw Jones 27.7%
Sammy Sosa 18.1%
Andy Pettitte 12.3%
Bobby Abreu 7.1%
Cliff Lee 0.6%
Paul Konerko 0.6%
Jason Giambi 0.6%
Eric Chávez 0.0%
Rafael Furcal 0.0%
Alfonso Soriano 0.0%
Josh Beckett 0.0%
Heath Bell 0.0%
Adam Dunn 0.0%
Chone Figgins 0.0%
Raúl Ibañez 0.0%
Carlos Peña 0.0%
Brad Penny 0.0%
JJ Putz 0.0%
Brian Roberts 0.0%
José Valverde 0.0%

Chone Figgins getting no votes is exactly why the BHOF is a joke. I mean, c'mon.

tribe_pride wrote:With another 20 votes (155) 37.6% of total, Jeter still at 100%, Walker and Schilling staying strong at 80%+ but Bonds and Clemens are now both below the line at 74.8% and 73.5%. Will be interesting to see if they even stay above 70% at this point. As said before, with nobody of interest next year, I see them missing this year but getting voted in next year.

Public Ballots: 148
Anonymous Ballots: 7
% of Ballots Known: 37.6%
"Last Updated:
1/16/2020 at 06:55 PST"
Derek Jeter 100.0%
Larry Walker 85.2%
Curt Schilling 80.0%
Barry Bonds 74.8%
Roger Clemens 73.5%
Scott Rolen 50.3%
Omar Vizquel 45.8%
Gary Sheffield 39.4%
Todd Helton 36.1%
Manny Ramirez 35.5%
Billy Wagner 32.9%
Jeff Kent 28.4%
Andruw Jones 27.7%
Sammy Sosa 18.1%
Andy Pettitte 12.3%
Bobby Abreu 7.1%
Cliff Lee 0.6%
Paul Konerko 0.6%
Jason Giambi 0.6%
Eric Chávez 0.0%
Rafael Furcal 0.0%
Alfonso Soriano 0.0%
Josh Beckett 0.0%
Heath Bell 0.0%
Adam Dunn 0.0%
Chone Figgins 0.0%
Raúl Ibañez 0.0%
Carlos Peña 0.0%
Brad Penny 0.0%
JJ Putz 0.0%
Brian Roberts 0.0%
José Valverde 0.0%

Probably depends on how this whole Astros cheating thing works out. Guys are getting fired left and right now for cheating, so how would the optics work to, this year or next year, induct into the HOF two of the most notorious cheaters of all?

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Around the time when the MLB players said so.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/07/spor ... ingly.html

Mattingly's Hall of Fame Monitor Score is 134. 100+ = "likely Hall of Famer"; 130+ = "lock"

"Lock" -- unless you are a Yankee.

According to Baseball Reference he's a similar batter to 10 other players, 9 of whom are also not in the HOF. Interestingly, the only similar batter who is in the HOF on that list is Kirby Puckett, but since you said he doesn't belong in the HOF then that hurts Donnie's case.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... do01.shtml

Interesting, because three guys on that list had careers shortened by injuries: Mattingly; Puckett, who is in; Tony Oliva, who should be in. It's mind boggling that Tony Oliva isn't it. I know he had a short career but, man, what a player.

So I see that list as supporting Mattingly.

JoltinJoe wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
According to Baseball Reference he's a similar batter to 10 other players, 9 of whom are also not in the HOF. Interestingly, the only similar batter who is in the HOF on that list is Kirby Puckett, but since you said he doesn't belong in the HOF then that hurts Donnie's case.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... do01.shtml

Interesting, because three guys on that list had careers shortened by injuries: Mattingly; Puckett, who is in; Tony Oliva, who should be in. It's mind boggling that Tony Oliva isn't it. I know he had a short career but, man, what a player.

So I see that list as supporting Mattingly.

Mattingly’s stats trailed off after 1989. 1990 was his only really subpar year, but I think the overall downward trend may have kept him out so far.

Ivytalk wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Interesting, because three guys on that list had careers shortened by injuries: Mattingly; Puckett, who is in; Tony Oliva, who should be in. It's mind boggling that Tony Oliva isn't it. I know he had a short career but, man, what a player.

So I see that list as supporting Mattingly.

Mattingly’s stats trailed off after 1989. 1990 was his only really subpar year, but I think the overall downward trend may have kept him out so far.

That's true. After his crippling back injury, Mattingly soldiered on, playing well above average for a number of years -- just nothing like he was from 1984 through 1989.

Oliva's injury ended his effective career at 32. Yes, he limped along for four more seasons, but he was really just an average ballplayer.

Both of these guys though, for many years, were far and away better on their worst day than many of the guys who made it to the Hall by compiling over 15-20 years. I think what Mattingly and Oliva did is far tougher than compiling. Being the "best" or "near best" player in the game for five or six years -- the list of guys who can say that is much short than the list of "compilers."

JoltinJoe wrote:

Ivytalk wrote: Mattingly’s stats trailed off after 1989. 1990 was his only really subpar year, but I think the overall downward trend may have kept him out so far.

That's true. After his crippling back injury, Mattingly soldiered on, playing well above average for a number of years -- just nothing like he was from 1984 through 1989.

Oliva's injury ended his effective career at 32. Yes, he limped along for four more seasons, but he was really just an average ballplayer.

Both of these guys though, for many years, were far and away better on their worst day than many of the guys who made it to the Hall by compiling over 15-20 years. I think what Mattingly and Oliva did is far tougher than compiling. Being the "best" or "near best" player in the game for five or six years -- the list of guys who can say that is much short than the list of "compilers."

three. You keep expanding the window of "greatness"....it's really three years for Mattingly. '85-'87.

AZGrizFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
That's true. After his crippling back injury, Mattingly soldiered on, playing well above average for a number of years -- just nothing like he was from 1984 through 1989.

Oliva's injury ended his effective career at 32. Yes, he limped along for four more seasons, but he was really just an average ballplayer.

Both of these guys though, for many years, were far and away better on their worst day than many of the guys who made it to the Hall by compiling over 15-20 years. I think what Mattingly and Oliva did is far tougher than compiling. Being the "best" or "near best" player in the game for five or six years -- the list of guys who can say that is much short than the list of "compilers."

three. You keep expanding the window of "greatness"....it's really three years for Mattingly. '85-'87.

You're out of your mind. He had six consecutive seasons with an OPS+ that are Hall of Fame type years.

JoltinJoe wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
three. You keep expanding the window of "greatness"....it's really three years for Mattingly. '85-'87.

You're out of your mind. He had six consecutive seasons with an OPS+ that are Hall of Fame type years.

Where are you drawing that line? 120?

Then Paul Goldschmidt should just pack it in, because he's a mortal lock for the HOF at this point.

AZGrizFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
You're out of your mind. He had six consecutive seasons with an OPS+ that are Hall of Fame type years.

Where are you drawing that line? 120?

Then Paul Goldschmidt should just pack it in, because he's a mortal lock for the HOF at this point.

Current Polling
Derek Jeter
SS -- Yankees
Year on ballot: 1st
Currently polling at: 100% (153 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 60.2% (156 of 259)

Larry Walker
OF -- Rockies, Expos, Cardinals
Year on ballot: 10th (final)
Currently polling at: 85.0% (130 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 69.1% (179 of 259)
Votes flipped so far from 2019-20 ("No" to "Yes"): 24 of 45 (53.3%)
Flip rate needed for induction (based on 2019 totals): 44.9%

Curt Schilling
RHP -- Phillies, D-backs, Red Sox, Orioles, Astros
Year on ballot: 8th
Currently polling at: 79.7% (122 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 72.2% (187 of 259)
Votes flipped from 2019-20: 9 of 35 (25.7%)
Flip rate needed: 36.0%

Barry Bonds
OF -- Giants, Pirates
Year on ballot: 8th
Currently polling at: 75.8% (116 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 74.5% (193 of 259)
Votes flipped from 2019-20: 3 of 36 (8.3%)
Flip rate needed: 38.9%

Roger Clemens
RHP -- Red Sox, Yankees, Astros, Blue Jays
Year on ballot: 8th
Currently polling at: 74.5% (114 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 75.3% (195 of 259)
Votes flipped from 2019-20: 3 of 37 (8.1%)
Flip rate needed: 38.2%

Scott Rolen
3B -- Phillies, Cardinals, Reds, Blue Jays
Year on ballot: 3rd
Currently polling at: 51.0% (78 of 153)
% needed on remaining ballots: 89.2% (231 of 259)
Votes flipped from 2019-20: 39 of 110 (35.5%)
Flip rate needed: 69.8%

Don Mattingly
1B -- Yankees
Year on ballot: Expired
Currently polling at: 0%

Scott Rolen? GMAFB.

Ivytalk wrote:Scott Rolen? GMAFB.

Agreed, if Scott Rolen gets in why even bother excluding people from making it. Rolen was a perfectly fine, kinda above average player throughout his career. Not a HOF'er though.

Looks like Schilling is trending out and Walker is still hanging on but may wind up close in his last try. Bonds Clemens about to be back in the 60-70% when voting is announced today.

Public Ballots: 209
Anonymous Ballots: 8
% of Ballots Known: 52.7%
"Last Updated:
1/21/2020 at 10:16 PST"
Derek Jeter 100.0%
Larry Walker 83.4%
Curt Schilling 77.9%
Barry Bonds 71.0%
Roger Clemens 70.0%
Omar Vizquel 49.3%
Scott Rolen 47.9%
Gary Sheffield 35.9%
Billy Wagner 35.5%
Jeff Kent 33.2%
Todd Helton 32.7%
Manny Ramirez 31.3%
Andruw Jones 24.9%
Sammy Sosa 17.1%
Andy Pettitte 10.6%
Bobby Abreu 6.0%
Cliff Lee 0.5%
Paul Konerko 0.9%
Jason Giambi 0.5%
Eric Chávez 0.5%
Rafael Furcal 0.0%
Alfonso Soriano 0.0%
Josh Beckett 0.0%
Heath Bell 0.0%
Adam Dunn 0.0%
Chone Figgins 0.0%
Raúl Ibañez 0.0%
Carlos Peña 0.0%
Brad Penny 0.0%
JJ Putz 0.0%
Brian Roberts 0.0%
José Valverde 0.0%