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Jose Canseco responded to the outing of David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez as PED users by claiming that there already is a juicer enshrined at Cooperstown. Since Canseco denied Rickey Henderson was, to his knowledge, a juicer, was he referring to Dennis Eckersly? The list of players already in Cooperstown who played with Canseco is not that long -- Henderson, Eckersly; and Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, and Nolan Ryan at the end of their careers.

Or maybe Nolan Ryan ... I always loved the guy, but his dramatic, late-career resurgence now looks a lot like Roger Clemens's resurgence ... and his heart troubles at a young age ... makes you wonder. I've had some suspicions about Ryan over the last few years.

Could Dennis Eckersley be Hall of Fame’s Juicer?

And if one was....lots were...adding evidence to the claim that NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPION from probably the mid 80's was a completely clean team...

Col Hogan wrote:And if one was....lots were...adding evidence to the claim that NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPION from probably the mid 80's was a completely clean team...

They didn't win the World Series, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the 93 Phillies were not clean.

I'd like to see one player be a man and out himself before a teammate or positive test does it.

BlueHen86 wrote:

Col Hogan wrote:And if one was....lots were...adding evidence to the claim that NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPION from probably the mid 80's was a completely clean team...

They didn't win the World Series, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the 93 Phillies were not clean.

Dykstra and a couple other guys on that team really bulked up mid-career a la Brady Anderson.

Then you look at some other WS teams during this era and you can't think of a single guy who fits the steroid profile.

JoltinJoe wrote:

BlueHen86 wrote:

They didn't win the World Series, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the 93 Phillies were not clean.

Dykstra and a couple other guys on that team really bulked up mid-career a la Brady Anderson.

Then you look at some other WS teams during this era and you can't think of a single guy who fits the steroid profile.

As several writers pointed out on "The Sports Reporters" this morning....it's a myth that there is a "steroid profile"...

No one suspected A-Rod due to any physical profile...some players had the bulk up...some did not...

If that's your only evidence, you are, in my humble opinion, choosing to ignore some facts...

Pretty sure Dykstra has been outed (Mitchell Report?)... but if he was on anything it was the dip juice that he didn't spit onto the CF turf at the vet. Him and the Kruker were high on dip. Dalton had to be on something to, though I think it would have probably been more on the mind altering drugs than the PED's.

Col Hogan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Dykstra and a couple other guys on that team really bulked up mid-career a la Brady Anderson.

Then you look at some other WS teams during this era and you can't think of a single guy who fits the steroid profile.

As several writers pointed out on "The Sports Reporters" this morning....it's a myth that there is a "steroid profile"...

No one suspected A-Rod due to any physical profile...some players had the bulk up...some did not...

If that's your only evidence, you are, in my humble opinion, choosing to ignore some facts...

Yup - steriods are not just for power, but for injury recovery, adding velocity to pitches, endurance, etc.

Col Hogan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Dykstra and a couple other guys on that team really bulked up mid-career a la Brady Anderson.

Then you look at some other WS teams during this era and you can't think of a single guy who fits the steroid profile.

As several writers pointed out on "The Sports Reporters" this morning....it's a myth that there is a "steroid profile"...

No one suspected A-Rod due to any physical profile...some players had the bulk up...some did not...

If that's your only evidence, you are, in my humble opinion, choosing to ignore some facts...

It's a myth there is a steroid profile? Of course there is a steroid profile. And Arod potentially fit it.

You may recall that there was a discussion on AGS some time back, and the issue of Arod came up ... and I said, I don't know about Arod, but if he is using steroids, he's been doing it since high school.

Years later, Selena Roberts reported that he started juicing in high school.

As for Ortiz, he possessed numerous indica of steroid use -- the steroid profile in every sense: mid-career offensive explosion; mid-career bulk-up; unusual health problems like irregular heartbeat, fatigue, dehydration; quirky tendon, wrist, knee injuries.

I called Ortiz as a PED user years ago, and was ridiculed by Bosox fans for saying it. Now that Ortiz is outed, now they say "everyone did" and "no one is clean" and "every title in the past 20 years" was won with a PED user.

JMU DJ wrote:Pretty sure Dykstra has been outed (Mitchell Report?)... but if he was on anything it was the dip juice that he didn't spit onto the CF turf at the vet. Him and the Kruker were high on dip. Dalton had to be on something to, though I think it would have probably been more on the mind altering drugs than the PED's.

Had to be some strong stuff. Dalton thinks he can talk to lizards, he was probably just watching a Geico commercial.

BlueHen86 wrote:I'd like to see one player be a man and out himself before a teammate or positive test does it.

Do you think more drivers should man up and report any of their own speeding incidences to the authorities before a patrolman or radar reading does it?

JayJ79 wrote:

BlueHen86 wrote:I'd like to see one player be a man and out himself before a teammate or positive test does it.

Do you think more drivers should man up and report any of their own speeding incidences to the authorities before a patrolman or radar reading does it?

Only if they make over $5 million per year.

Gil Dobie wrote:

JayJ79 wrote:
Do you think more drivers should man up and report any of their own speeding incidences to the authorities before a patrolman or radar reading does it?

Only if they make over $5 million per year.

Yup, and my money doesn't contribute to the income of a speeder sooooo I'm gonna have to say no here. But, since many PED's weren't illegal in the MLB for a period of time I don't think some of these players should be scrutinized... when were roids banned? HGH? Probably not when Eckersly, Ryan, etc were playing. Blame Selig for turning a blind eye and acting like a fucking twat by not taking action more soon.

JayJ79 wrote:

BlueHen86 wrote:I'd like to see one player be a man and out himself before a teammate or positive test does it.

Do you think more drivers should man up and report any of their own speeding incidences to the authorities before a patrolman or radar reading does it?

Your analogy is not an equivalent situation. I'm talking about players that have already been caught.

There is supposedly a list of 104 or players that tested positive. The players whose names are on that list know who they are (allegedly). That list is slowly being leaked out. When Ortizs' name was leaked he acted suprised to hear that his name was on the list. These players are still in denial, they know they were caught, and they still lie about it. If I was on the list I'd admit it now, before someone else did and get the negative publicity behind me that much sooner.

JMU DJ wrote:Yup, and my money doesn't contribute to the income of a speeder sooooo I'm gonna have to say no here. But, since many PED's weren't illegal in the MLB for a period of time I don't think some of these players should be scrutinized... when were roids banned? HGH? Probably not when Eckersly, Ryan, etc were playing. Blame Selig for turning a blind eye and acting like a **** twat by not taking action more soon.

Blog about Fay Vincent's Memo from 1991
Link

After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball’s banned list. The memo stated: “The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited … This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs … including steroids.” The seven-page document didn’t include a testing plan — that had to be bargained with the union — but it did outline treatment and penalties.

So on June 7, 1991, baseball did in fact tell all those unethical players that they were now cheaters if they continued their use of steroids or other banned substances in baseball, but as we look at those future hall of famers it looks as if they did not heed baseballs warning: Canseco-1991- home run leader, Bonds 1993, 2001 home run leader, Troy Glaus, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez-home run leaders and steroid users after 1991, the list could continue, but why?

Why do we defend those heroes that constantly let us down as fans, why do we feel as if we must play a game of semantics for the modern day player who tried, or tries, to circumvent the rules and then flashes a smile and tells us, “he wasn’t sure”, “he didn’t know”, “nobody told him”.

If you are a cheat, you are a cheat and let us get it very clear that those baseball players who used and are still using steroids and other banned substances by Baseball are just one thing CHEATERS. And, if you want to look at other players that have broken rules, and say that they too don’t belong in the Hall of Fame because of what they did, then please do. Then, someday, perhaps we will have a Hall of Fame that represents those that truly belong there.

Steriods were illegal BEFORE 1991...


So they were cheating before then

Col Hogan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Dykstra and a couple other guys on that team really bulked up mid-career a la Brady Anderson.

Then you look at some other WS teams during this era and you can't think of a single guy who fits the steroid profile.

As several writers pointed out on "The Sports Reporters" this morning....it's a myth that there is a "steroid profile"...

No one suspected A-Rod due to any physical profile...some players had the bulk up...some did not...

If that's your only evidence, you are, in my humble opinion, choosing to ignore some facts...

Arod is an ectomorph body type that doesn't show the traits of steroid use like a mesomorph, or an endomorph body style does but he still retains all the other benefits other than outward appearance.

dbackjon wrote:Steriods were illegal BEFORE 1991...


So they were cheating before then

Yes, but the commish is calling them cheaters starting in 1991

JoltinJoe wrote:Jose Canseco responded to the outing of David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez as PED users by claiming that there already is a juicer enshrined at Cooperstown. Since Canseco denied Rickey Henderson was, to his knowledge, a juicer, was he referring to Dennis Eckersly? The list of players already in Cooperstown who played with Canseco is not that long -- Henderson, Eckersly; and Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, and Nolan Ryan at the end of their careers.

Or maybe Nolan Ryan ... I always loved the guy, but his dramatic, late-career resurgence now looks a lot like Roger Clemens's resurgence ... and his heart troubles at a young age ... makes you wonder. I've had some suspicions about Ryan over the last few years.

Could Dennis Eckersley be Hall of Fame’s Juicer?

Not sure what you qualify as a "late career resurgence" by Ryan. He pitched 26 complete seasons and NEVER had an ERA over 3.94---EVER. In fact after that season (at age 24), Ryan only TWICE reached a 3.72 ERA. Ryan had 222......COMPLETE GAMES. He was the model of consistency his entire career, and really only had one achilles heel----the base on balls. 11 times in 26 seasons he had over 100 BB, and 8 times he led the league. Hell, TWICE he walked over 200 batters!!! That would be unheard of in today's world of pitching.

A career 3.19 ERA and career 1.24 WHIP, with VERY consistent numbers, doesn't speak "steroids" to me. But that's just one man's opinion.

AZGrizFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:Jose Canseco responded to the outing of David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez as PED users by claiming that there already is a juicer enshrined at Cooperstown. Since Canseco denied Rickey Henderson was, to his knowledge, a juicer, was he referring to Dennis Eckersly? The list of players already in Cooperstown who played with Canseco is not that long -- Henderson, Eckersly; and Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, and Nolan Ryan at the end of their careers.

Or maybe Nolan Ryan ... I always loved the guy, but his dramatic, late-career resurgence now looks a lot like Roger Clemens's resurgence ... and his heart troubles at a young age ... makes you wonder. I've had some suspicions about Ryan over the last few years.

Could Dennis Eckersley be Hall of Fame’s Juicer?

Not sure what you qualify as a "late career resurgence" by Ryan. He pitched 26 complete seasons and NEVER had an ERA over 3.94---EVER. In fact after that season (at age 24), Ryan only TWICE reached a 3.72 ERA. Ryan had 222......COMPLETE GAMES. He was the model of consistency his entire career, and really only had one achilles heel----the base on balls. 11 times in 26 seasons he had over 100 BB, and 8 times he led the league. Hell, TWICE he walked over 200 batters!!! That would be unheard of in today's world of pitching.

A career 3.19 ERA and career 1.24 WHIP, with VERY consistent numbers, doesn't speak "steroids" to me. But that's just one man's opinion.

First year in Texas (1989), he K's 301 batters even though he pitched only 19 more innings than prior season with Houston, when he K'ed 228.

Ryan in Texas threw to no-hitters, even though his last no-hitter had been 1975 before that. He went 15 seasons between no-hitters. Also, he had a number of games where he threatened no hitters.

My impression remains he had much nastier stuff in 1989, all of a sudden, than what he had in 1988.

That, and the heart problems at a young age, create suspicion. That's all it is. I would love to be wrong and hope I am.

What about Cal Ripken?

bluehenbillk wrote:What about Cal Ripken?

For keeping his streak alive?

JoltinJoe wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
Not sure what you qualify as a "late career resurgence" by Ryan. He pitched 26 complete seasons and NEVER had an ERA over 3.94---EVER. In fact after that season (at age 24), Ryan only TWICE reached a 3.72 ERA. Ryan had 222......COMPLETE GAMES. He was the model of consistency his entire career, and really only had one achilles heel----the base on balls. 11 times in 26 seasons he had over 100 BB, and 8 times he led the league. Hell, TWICE he walked over 200 batters!!! That would be unheard of in today's world of pitching.

A career 3.19 ERA and career 1.24 WHIP, with VERY consistent numbers, doesn't speak "steroids" to me. But that's just one man's opinion.

First year in Texas (1989), he K's 301 batters even though he pitched only 19 more innings than prior season with Houston, when he K'ed 228.

Ryan in Texas threw to no-hitters, even though his last no-hitter had been 1975 before that. He went 15 seasons between no-hitters. Also, he had a number of games where he threatened no hitters.

My impression remains he had much nastier stuff in 1989, all of a sudden, than what he had in 1988.

That, and the heart problems at a young age, create suspicion. That's all it is. I would love to be wrong and hope I am.

If you look at his stats, you'll see that he consistently struck out more batters when facing AL teams than he did in his seasons with NL teams. Why remains a mystery....maybe it was the station-station baseball waiting for the 3-run HR mentality that was pervasive in the AL (and still is, to some degree.)

bluehenbillk wrote:What about Cal Ripken?

That's the name I heard too.

Grizo406 wrote:

bluehenbillk wrote:What about Cal Ripken?

That's the name I heard too.

That would be a huge blow to baseball ... However, Canseco was never a teammate of Ripken's. How would he know?