The ChampSub Top 25 Poll

[89Hen]

As I said back then, I don't disagree with the logic at all but all that is needed is one other voter to agree just to be sure on the matter. Once you start breaking the hard, fast, & simple rules like that one you drag yourself into many, many silly arguments with many, many other people saying that it was allowed when this happened and so forth.

When you have around 100 voters you have the resources to request at least a "second" on the motion just to make things easy. You know how damn difficult people can be to work with on this sort of thing.

That is much easier if you are a school with multiple voters...

The "second" can be from anyone. Even a homer Big Sky fan.

[clenz]

It just had to be a simple rule. If 50 people are voting and you are the ONLY one who thinks a team is #1 and that team happens to be the one you root for.... The big issue is all polls will publish the number of #1 votes. A #1 vote is different than all other votes. In the case of the voter who forced this issue, he wanted to see that (1) next to his team's name as a protest for the playoff snub. Obviously that's not the impetus for many, but it became clear that one voter could sabotage the poll.

What if you voted your team #1 all year and they fell in and out of the top 10, 15, 20, whatever... don't you think that would be an issue for the people who take their voting seriously? Remember, voters weren't privately invited to join. They just had to have the requisite number of posts on a message board. IIRC, we never banned anyone from voting, not even Mr Homer.

There are people in the media and coaches poll who fuck with it. Wasn't it Spurrier who used to always Duke at #25 just so they'd be listed under ORV?

Of course if the team isn't even in the top 10 that's an issue. When the team is getting 90+% of their votes in the top 5 it's not unreasonable to assume a #1 vote is okay.

[89Hen]

It just had to be a simple rule. If 50 people are voting and you are the ONLY one who thinks a team is #1 and that team happens to be the one you root for.... The big issue is all polls will publish the number of #1 votes. A #1 vote is different than all other votes. In the case of the voter who forced this issue, he wanted to see that (1) next to his team's name as a protest for the playoff snub. Obviously that's not the impetus for many, but it became clear that one voter could sabotage the poll.

What if you voted your team #1 all year and they fell in and out of the top 10, 15, 20, whatever... don't you think that would be an issue for the people who take their voting seriously? Remember, voters weren't privately invited to join. They just had to have the requisite number of posts on a message board. IIRC, we never banned anyone from voting, not even Mr Homer.

There are people in the media and coaches poll who fuck with it. Wasn't it Spurrier who used to always Duke at #25 just so they'd be listed under ORV?

Of course if the team isn't even in the top 10 that's an issue. When the team is getting 90+% of their votes in the top 5 it's not unreasonable to assume a #1 vote is okay.

OK, how about if they are getting 82% of the votes in the top 7?

Point is, whatever the rule is, somebody will disagree.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

As I said back then, I don't disagree with the logic at all but all that is needed is one other voter to agree just to be sure on the matter. Once you start breaking the hard, fast, & simple rules like that one you drag yourself into many, many silly arguments with many, many other people saying that it was allowed when this happened and so forth.

When you have around 100 voters you have the resources to request at least a "second" on the motion just to make things easy. You know how damn difficult people can be to work with on this sort of thing.

I know. I get the logistics of it. It's just frustrating because I know how a large number of people on AGS vote. I've talked to a couple UNI guys who vote/used to vote and said they didn't even think about putting UNI #1 unless they knew it was a slam dunk because it wasn't worth the having to "answer to it" if no one else had UNI #1. I don't even know if there are any other UNI voters at this point. I am the only one that's consistently active on the board.

Also, what is the rule for homer voting? What if I had one more UNI fan I could get to vote and if we ever got to the point of being in contention for being a reasonable #1 vote we both put UNI there? I mean, UNI would have 2 votes, just both from UNI guys?

I completely understand your side of it, without question. I understand that if you give an inch those vultures will take 4234 miles.

I think the year I had issue was 2014. UNI lost 21-23 at Iowa in the first game of the season and actually outgained the Hawkeyes. That was week 1, so even though most everyone agreed that it was one of the more impressive performances of the opening weekend. They were #5 preseason and had #1 votes preseason and actually moved up to #4 in that next poll. Oh well. I can't complain too much since I know how much of a pain in the ass doing stuff like that can be.

The rule is 2, you need a second person to agree with you and the spirit of this does not mean colluding with another fan of any sort. If you are doing that then you know you are messing with the legitimacy of the thing. But it could be done. If others are voting them in an average of a top 5 type team then it looks fine if you ask me but you would know that recruiting someone else to get that done is a fairly cheap way to get this done, and I honestly don't believe you would do that. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I don't think we've ever had a year since I been doing the poll that we've had less than four UNI voters and last year it was at least that, in 2014 I think it was six overall but I would have to go look. That might have been the year PR took off.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Of course if the team isn't even in the top 10 that's an issue. When the team is getting 90+% of their votes in the top 5 it's not unreasonable to assume a #1 vote is okay.

OK, how about if they are getting 82% of the votes in the top 7?

Point is, whatever the rule is, somebody will disagree.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to. Keep the rule simple and bare bones and abide by it and it leaves you with the best outcome you can get since you are dealing with so many different philosophies.

[clenz]

So which is hurting the legitimacy of a poll more

1. A fan of a team being the only #1 vote but the team is a top 4 team with all other voters included

Or

2. A person(s) voting two Ivy teams into the top 5-10 with one or two more in the rest of the ballot with a couple MEAC and PFL teams in the poll simply because "they have a winning record and/or better record than someone else"

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

So which is hurting the legitimacy of a poll more

1. A fan of a team being the only #1 vote but the team is a top 4 team with all other voters included

Or

2. A person(s) voting two Ivy teams into the top 5-10 with one or two more in the rest of the ballot with a couple MEAC and PFL teams in the poll simply because "they have a winning record and/or better record than someone else"

I believe #1 would be. One of them would be a manufactured and colluded outcome. I am assuming the #2 vote is that voters true belief and his/her true effort.

You make the mistake sometimes clenzy of not seeing that yours is not the only and certainly not necessarily the true reflection of what is really happening. I may even agree with you and line up shoulder to shoulder with you to verbally beat the piss out of a voter doing what you suggest. It is really hard in a lot of cases to not allow people to put their true beliefs down on a ballot and as a member of a Democratic system you have got to realize and live with that and not try to use it as a reason that other slippery issues should be entertained.

[clenz]

And I truly believed that UNIs showing after that Iowa game UNI was the best team in the country. I wasn't too far from the only one as UNI moved from 5 to 4 after that loss. That's not colluding or manufacturing an outcome. Have you ever believed I have submitted a ballot that was an attempt at a manufactured outcome? Keep in mind I completely dropped UNI from my ballot last year and they were still 12th or 15th or so in the final poll that week.

Again, I get the premise of the rule but I can't agree with the broadness of it. I'll take up the same fight for any school in this situation as well.

To me a patriot league poster having 2 Ivy teams in the top 10 isn't just because he thinks that and if it is then...well.

The same type of poster wouldn't vote NDSU into the top 25 should they lose to Iowa because they have a losing record. But would vote for a 1-0 SWAC team that beat the college of faith.

[kalm]

And I truly believed that UNIs showing after that Iowa game UNI was the best team in the country. I wasn't too far from the only one as UNI moved from 5 to 4 after that loss. That's not colluding or manufacturing an outcome. Have you ever believed I have submitted a ballot that was an attempt at a manufactured outcome? Keep in mind I completely dropped UNI from my ballot last year and they were still 12th or 15th or so in the final poll that week.

Again, I get the premise of the rule but I can't agree with the broadness of it. I'll take up the same fight for any school in this situation as well.

To me a patriot league poster having 2 Ivy teams in the top 10 isn't just because he thinks that and if it is then...well.

The same type of poster wouldn't vote NDSU into the top 25 should they lose to Iowa because they have a losing record. But would vote for a 1-0 SWAC team that beat the college of faith.

This, but it's tough seeing a way around that unless you want to take the time and really filter who gets a vote...which, in and of itself would be a form of bias. In a democracy, you have to suffer the wackiness and Patriot/mid major bias of the Mr. C's and Emory's of the world.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

And I truly believed that UNIs showing after that Iowa game UNI was the best team in the country. I wasn't too far from the only one as UNI moved from 5 to 4 after that loss. That's not colluding or manufacturing an outcome. Have you ever believed I have submitted a ballot that was an attempt at a manufactured outcome? Keep in mind I completely dropped UNI from my ballot last year and they were still 12th or 15th or so in the final poll that week.

You kinda seem to be making things up in your head and making assertions of statements that I did not make so I think this is where I need to jump off this one. The ending that I deleted off your post was just exaggeration again so I got rid of that for you, you are welcome.

[89Hen]

So which is hurting the legitimacy of a poll more

1. A fan of a team being the only #1 vote but the team is a top 4 team with all other voters included

Or

2. A person(s) voting two Ivy teams into the top 5-10 with one or two more in the rest of the ballot with a couple MEAC and PFL teams in the poll simply because "they have a winning record and/or better record than someone else"

1.

One person putting Yale #6 and Harvard at #8 really does little to the appearance of the poll. There would only be two people who knew that happened, the voter and the admin. The person that votes their own team #1 gets a bright, shiny (1) next to their team name, thus having a bigger impact on the appearance of the poll. The only other solution is to not put the first place votes next to the teams names, but since that's done in every other poll, it makes sense to keep that in.

In a poll where you are invited to participate, you always have it hanging over you that if you purposefully fuck with the poll via your ballot, your invite can get yanked. Discounting somebody's vote seems a lot less harsh than kicking somebody out IMO.

[clenz]

So which is hurting the legitimacy of a poll more

1. A fan of a team being the only #1 vote but the team is a top 4 team with all other voters included

Or

2. A person(s) voting two Ivy teams into the top 5-10 with one or two more in the rest of the ballot with a couple MEAC and PFL teams in the poll simply because "they have a winning record and/or better record than someone else"

1.

One person putting Yale #6 and Harvard at #8 really does little to the appearance of the poll. There would only be two people who knew that happened, the voter and the admin. The person that votes their own team #1 gets a bright, shiny (1) next to their team name, thus having a bigger impact on the appearance of the poll. The only other solution is to not put the first place votes next to the teams names, but since that's done in every other poll, it makes sense to keep that in.

In a poll where you are invited to participate, you always have it hanging over you that if you purposefully fuck with the poll via your ballot, your invite can get yanked. Discounting somebody's vote seems a lot less harsh than kicking somebody out IMO.

If the aggregate position for said #1 vote is still a top 5 team without said vote it's not fucking with the poll validity though. An Ivy school being left off of 50+% of brackets but getting a vote at #8 is going to have a larger impact than a single vote of #1 and not #2, and over the course of 100 voters it's not much.

A sample, and not a great one I get but it proves the small impact it has on the outcome, of 20 voters team A with team A fan:
1
2
2
2
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
5
5
5
6
6
6
6
7
7
That's an average of 4.2. If that 1 is changed to a 2 the average goes to 4.25

Now, team B is only on 13 of the 20 ballots:
18
19
19
19
21
21
21
23
23
23
24
25
25
That's an average of 21.6. One person voting them at 7 moved them up over a full poll position.


As I said, I get the rule and "protecting the perception" but in terms of hurting the perception of the poll that's overblown.

[Ibanez]

1. Sac State
2. Liberty

Last 5. MSU, Idaho, SUU, UND, UCD.

These are the dumbass votes everyone is talking about.



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[Ibanez]

Where does everyone see The Citadel ranking? They did well in the post season. I can see them starting in the top 12, surely the top 15.


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[clenz]

Where does everyone see The Citadel ranking? They did well in the post season. I can see them starting in the top 12, surely the top 15.


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I have a very early working draft of my submission that has them between 8-13.

I think they'll hit between 9 and 12 in the preseason ags poll

[Ibanez]

Where does everyone see The Citadel ranking? They did well in the post season. I can see them starting in the top 12, surely the top 15.


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I have a very early working draft of my submission that has them between 8-13.

I think they'll hit between 9 and 12 in the preseason ags poll

I agree with that. Ladson Technical College deserves a top 10 spot and it will probably be 1 ahead of El Cid.


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[Ursus A. Horribilis]

clenz, I really don't know wtf is wrong with you sometimes. We all agree that your position has merit and yet you want to keep fucking arguing it? It DOES NOT MATTER that it does hold water in a couple of rare cases. It matters that the public already has a thing about a "fan poll". The fact that we do things to a higher god damn standard that even the polls everyone (public) thinks are the standard bearer and we still have to constantly show how we perform against them in a positive light....do you really think allowing some silly shit like this would not cast an even wors light on it? You can have a very selfish "me, me" look at things clenz but if you step back you'd drop it I think.

One person, one other f'n person is all a #1 team needs and that sure isn't a high bar that a truly #1 team should have trouble achieving.

If your team truly was #1 then what is the absolute worst thing that could happen to them in the poll? They did not achieve the numbers next to their name in week 4 but instead had to wait until week 5? The minutia of this topic is unbelievable.

Yet, I still like discussing it to a point. I have now reached it though.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Oh, I didn't see where you said you did get the "the perception" thing. Apologies for not recognizing that. However you say it wouldn't fuck with the perception that much. You are out of your fucking mind if you believe that.

Look at how much ire it raises when a non homer casts a (1) vote...what is the first thing stated every fucking time "Who is the homer that cast that vote" and every time I have to go and explain it was not a homer doing it.

Everyone on that board, or in those threads knows that and still, it is the first god damn thing out of educated (on the matter) people start pissing about.

[89Hen]

As I said, I get the rule and "protecting the perception" but in terms of hurting the perception of the poll that's overblown.

That's your opinion. It was the opinion of many others that the (1) hurts perception more. EVERY poll has at least one team that seems to be too high and one team that seems to be too low to a majority of people. That will never change. Harvard being 14 instead of 15.... you honestly think that is a bigger impact?

[Ibanez]

As I said, I get the rule and "protecting the perception" but in terms of hurting the perception of the poll that's overblown.

That's your opinion. It was the opinion of many others that the (1) hurts perception more. EVERY poll has at least one team that seems to be too high and one team that seems to be too low to a majority of people. That will never change. Harvard being 14 instead of 15.... you honestly think that is a bigger impact?

Lik CCU. They were ranked too high last year.


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[89Hen]

Polls are a funny thing. They certainly don't represent who you think is the better team one v one as you go down the rankings. It's basically a reward for winning the games you've played. There are MANY times where if a poll voter had to wager on a game for lets say a second place OVC team that is ranked around 20 vs a MVFC that maybe isn't ranked because they've lost to 4 top 25 teams.... they might take the MVFC team.

[andy7171]

All day, every day.

Hey, Russian, do you happen to have some Scottish ancestry?

Please God, don't say Scots Irish.

[Killamike296]

I've really been doing my homework for this season and I think I'm starting to get a rough idea of what I'm going to submit when the time comes. It's kinda sad that Ivy League schools are ineligible for the postseason because I think Harvard in recent years might have had a decent chance of actually doing something in the tournament. Keep in mind that's my opinion but there are certain teams in those non Postseason conferences that might stand a chance in the postseason in a few years time who knows tbh.


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[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I've really been doing my homework for this season and I think I'm starting to get a rough idea of what I'm going to submit when the time comes. It's kinda sad that Ivy League schools are ineligible for the postseason because I think Harvard in recent years might have had a decent chance of actually doing something in the tournament. Keep in mind that's my opinion but there are certain teams in those non Postseason conferences that might stand a chance in the postseason in a few years time who knows tbh.


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Harvard could have possibly done some work in the early rounds. They were a fairly good team for sure.

You best get working on the post count a bit.

[Killamike296]

I've really been doing my homework for this season and I think I'm starting to get a rough idea of what I'm going to submit when the time comes. It's kinda sad that Ivy League schools are ineligible for the postseason because I think Harvard in recent years might have had a decent chance of actually doing something in the tournament. Keep in mind that's my opinion but there are certain teams in those non Postseason conferences that might stand a chance in the postseason in a few years time who knows tbh.


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Harvard could have possibly done some work in the early rounds. They were a fairly good team for sure.

You best get working on the post count a bit.

I post when I can lol. I didn't know anything about a post requirement lmao