Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:36 pm

Baldy wrote:
Pwns wrote:
Go back and look at the ECU team's schedule from that season. You'd think they were in a major conference with all the big names on it. Aside from that game, most of our FBS games were against blue bloods like UGA, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, and Miami. We didn't get many games against the Wyomings, CMUs, Colorado States, Minnesotas, or even Kansas State's except when we briefly went away from an option offense.

But that's beside the point. You seem to be implying I'm cherry-picking here, but I think I've seen enough to say that's not the case. I've said before in this thread that the CAA not being up to what it was is a big reason the FCS isn't as strong as it used to be and not just the FBS defectors. A CAA playoff team lost to a Duquesne team that was destroyed by UMass, Maine has looked bad against multiple bad G5 teams, Kennesaw lost to Georgia State, and a second team that eliminated a CAA playoff team was soundly beaten by the fourth or fifth-best Sun Belt team. That seems more like signal than noise.

You can't tell me all that could happen in the CAA's of most of the '00s. The year-by-year comparisons of Sagarin aren't really overly convincing. The wave of recent start-ups that think they're going to be the next UCF because they're in a market are most certainly dead weight in the G5 as well as programs like Texas State that have money but still suck. That doesn't mean the FCS isn't weaker than it was.

One more comment, 4 of the 10 Sun Belt teams in the current Sagarin rankings would be top 5, and 7 of the 10 would be top-25. For a conference that gets mocked as being a glorified FCS conference, it seems pretty damn strong.

Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.


Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Chizzang » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:50 pm

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.


Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:


Get ready for the "Yeah, but..."

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby crixus » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:53 pm

Silenoz wrote:
93henfan wrote:FCS's "best" Defense: 0
NDSU: 35

/thread

I'm sure the semis and finals will be exciting



...for the first 1-4 minutes


I doubt NDSU will blow out SDSU on Friday. Their first game this season was close and I think this one will be too.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Baldy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:43 pm

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.


Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:

:rofl:

Yes, and I have no doubt that Princeton or Dartmouth would be favored against a TCU, or OK State or App, or Virginia, or GS, etc. etc. etc. :dunce:

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Pwns » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:23 pm

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.


Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:


I'm not really sure what your point is, here. :?

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:57 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:It's been over for a long time. I've never seen a worse beating than what Gil and Kalm took on this thread. Kalm is close to admitting he was wrong, but I don't thing Gil will.


Sorry CAAn't take the CAAn't win fans seriously.

Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know? :roll:

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:09 am

Pwns wrote:
kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:


I'm not really sure what your point is, here. :?

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)


Why not include all FCS in there especially the BSC and Ivy? Massey should be rated higher than all, they have 22 more schollies and better funding. The Sun Belt is a glorified FCS conference that plays in bull games.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Chizzang » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:11 am

Pwns wrote:
kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:


I'm not really sure what your point is, here. :?

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)


Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

:lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:18 am

Chizzang wrote:
Pwns wrote:
I'm not really sure what your point is, here. :?

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)


Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

:lol:


:lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Pwns » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:39 pm

Chizzang wrote:Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

:lol:



I don't know who "you" is here. I still follow the SoCon , Kennesaw, and the FCS playoffs, and I'm speaking as someone who has followed the subdivision for a long time. and I've bent over backwards here to say I think the FCS doesn't need Georgia Southern and App State to be more respectable even though losing those teams hurt it.

What I take from kalm's post is we'd be the FCS #6 in Massey, and among playoff-participating schools #4. Myself and most of our fans would tell you our current team isn't overly exceptional compared to the great teams we've had in the past.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:55 pm

Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:35 pm

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


:lol:

This argument was lost for you on a Mario Brown wheel route with about 3:30 to play in the 3rd quarter on 1/7/2011.

:)
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:42 pm

89Hen wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Sorry CAAn't take the CAAn't win fans seriously.

Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know? :roll:

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?


I've only been watching Bison football since 1967, so I have a little catching up to do. Back when they beat Montana in a couple bowl games, lost to San Diego St in another. Saw them play I-AA schools over that time, prior to 2003. Beat NAU in 1980, BBQ in 1979. Always wanted to see the Bison play GSU back in the options days to see who was better.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:55 pm

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:57 pm

.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.


Kalm and Gil...

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:59 pm

kalm wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.


Kalm and Gil...

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:lol: :notworthy: :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby UNI88 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:04 pm

Pwns wrote:
kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships. :lol:


I'm not really sure what your point is, here. :?

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
6 of the top 10 are SBC
6 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)


fyi - Texas State is in the Belt.

Based only on Massey, the Sunbelt appears to be slightly better than the MVFC in 2018. How do the numbers look for 2017, 2016, etc.? Regardless, Cleets is right.

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby UNI88 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:23 pm

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


No they didn't. You and 93 have made some very valid arguments but so have Kalm, Gil and JSO but none of them have been knockout punches that show the other side is wrong.

Yes it hurt FCS to lose GSU and Appy. Losing ODU and Coastal didn't really hurt. ODU was a pass through, FCS for 5 years (and only playoff eligible for 4). Coastal was a great story but they weren't successful for long enough for their loss to really hurt the FCS. Kennesaw is well on its way to replacing Coastal in FCS. I would argue that having traditional powers like Furman and Deliwhere down on their luck has been just as hard on FCS as losing GSU and Appy.

It's hard to judge the increased competition for scholarships because that doesn't occur in a vacuum. Yes there are more scholarships available and more competition for quality players. There are also probably fewer kids playing football at the high school and youth levels. But you also have better training and coaching so the kids that are playing today are on average better than they were 10-20 years ago. I also think you have fewer kids who want to be a walk-on at Football Factory University and are more open to actually playing for lower level (G5 and FCS) teams.

It would seem that FCS teams beat FBS teams a little more frequently than they used to and a greater number of teams are pulling off those upsets. If the quality of football played in the FCS is down then so is the quality of football played at the G5 and P5 FBS level.

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:35 pm

UNI88 wrote:
89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


No they didn't. You and 93 have made some very valid arguments but so have Kalm, Gil and JSO but none of them have been knockout punches that show the other side is wrong.

Yes it hurt FCS to lose GSU and Appy. Losing ODU and Coastal didn't really hurt. ODU was a pass through, FCS for 5 years (and only playoff eligible for 4). Coastal was a great story but they weren't successful for long enough for their loss to really hurt the FCS. Kennesaw is well on its way to replacing Coastal in FCS. I would argue that having traditional powers like Furman and Deliwhere down on their luck has been just as hard on FCS as losing GSU and Appy.

It's hard to judge the increased competition for scholarships because that doesn't occur in a vacuum. Yes there are more scholarships available and more competition for quality players. There are also probably fewer kids playing football at the high school and youth levels. But you also have better training and coaching so the kids that are playing today are on average better than they were 10-20 years ago. I also think you have fewer kids who want to be a walk-on at Football Factory University and are more open to actually playing for lower level (G5 and FCS) teams.

It would seem that FCS teams beat FBS teams a little more frequently than they used to and a greater number of teams are pulling off those upsets. If the quality of football played in the FCS is down then so is the quality of football played at the G5 and P5 FBS level.


All of this....

:clap: :clap: :clap: :nod: :nod: :nod:

When a three win Idaho State is beating Nevada, an SLC not named SHSU has an P5 scalp, and a MEAC kid is tearing it up on Sunday Night Football, I'd say FCS is just fine from a talent standpoint. Bigger, faster, better athletes and at least as competitive against FBS.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Chizzang » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:35 pm

Sunbelt Fans...
when about to enter an FCS debate

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:00 am

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

They're like a self help group for battered wives. :lol:

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:40 am

I was really disappointed when NDSU finally did play Georgia Southern in 2006. Back when FCS was strong. Beating the Eagles 34-14 below the 6 FCS flags flying proudly over their stadium. Oh, and the 2003 FCS playoff team that lost to NDSU at another fabled venue, a DII in transition. Both teams refused return games to Fargo. But this was back when FCS was soooooo much stronger.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:57 am

Baldy wrote:
89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

They're like a self help group for battered wives. :lol:


pwns and Baldy...

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:00 am

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:They're like a self help group for battered wives. :lol:


pwns and Baldy...

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That's it, buddy...lash out. I know it's frustrating, but you'll feel better. :thumb:


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