Some beg to differ...ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Exactly oneGil Dobie wrote:
..and the male domination has not exactly all been good either. There have been some great world leaders of the opposite sex.
(Thatcher)
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April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
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Re: RE: Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
IF there was a chance for actual change... good change, you'd have a point. But alas, there is not so you don't. A third party vote is the epitome of a wasted vote. Just like my write in vote. I get it. You don't.AZGrizFan wrote:Jesus, you're being exceptionally dense today.89Hen wrote: You're joking, right? Voting for either party is throwing away your vote, even though one of them will win? Whereas voting third party is not a waste, even though your vote will be going to somebody who will get maybe 5% of the vote in a good year?
And voting your conscience is only if they vote how you say they should vote?
It's throwing away your vote because in the long run it DOES. NOT. MATTER. If either of the major party candidates win, it's same ol' same ol'....wanting change and then voting for the same thing over and over again...the definition of insanity. Again, is that REALLY that difficult of a concept to grasp?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
With that attitude there will never be change. Fatalist.89Hen wrote:IF there was a chance for actual change... good change, you'd have a point. But alas, there is not so you don't. A third party vote is the epitome of a wasted vote. Just like my write in vote. I get it. You don't.AZGrizFan wrote:
Jesus, you're being exceptionally dense today.
It's throwing away your vote because in the long run it DOES. NOT. MATTER. If either of the major party candidates win, it's same ol' same ol'....wanting change and then voting for the same thing over and over again...the definition of insanity. Again, is that REALLY that difficult of a concept to grasp?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
No, what I get and you don't is that if people keep saying "I'm a third party proponent and the system is broken" and then continue to vote for one of the two major parties, we'll NEVER have a "chance for actual change". I guess the difference is I believe we COULD have change. You don't. Klammy is right...you're a fatalist.89Hen wrote:IF there was a chance for actual change... good change, you'd have a point. But alas, there is not so you don't. A third party vote is the epitome of a wasted vote. Just like my write in vote. I get it. You don't.AZGrizFan wrote:
Jesus, you're being exceptionally dense today.
It's throwing away your vote because in the long run it DOES. NOT. MATTER. If either of the major party candidates win, it's same ol' same ol'....wanting change and then voting for the same thing over and over again...the definition of insanity. Again, is that REALLY that difficult of a concept to grasp?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
It's not like it's close guys. It's been 26 years since Ross Perot got almost 19% of the vote. Nothing has been close since. Last year all the third party together didn't crack 6%.AZGrizFan wrote:No, what I get and you don't is that if people keep saying "I'm a third party proponent and the system is broken" and then continue to vote for one of the two major parties, we'll NEVER have a "chance for actual change". I guess the difference is I believe we COULD have change. You don't. Klammy is right...you're a fatalist.89Hen wrote: IF there was a chance for actual change... good change, you'd have a point. But alas, there is not so you don't. A third party vote is the epitome of a wasted vote. Just like my write in vote. I get it. You don't.
Now, IF a Republican runs as an independent this year, I would expect a better than average year, but don't look for anyone to crack 5% on their own. You say fatalist, I say realist.
Could change... sure. I could also win the lottery.
Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I certainly doesn't help that politics as an industry has made it nearly impossible for a competitor to take root and grow.89Hen wrote:It's not like it's close guys. It's been 26 years since Ross Perot got almost 19% of the vote. Nothing has been close since. Last year all the third party together didn't crack 6%.AZGrizFan wrote:
No, what I get and you don't is that if people keep saying "I'm a third party proponent and the system is broken" and then continue to vote for one of the two major parties, we'll NEVER have a "chance for actual change". I guess the difference is I believe we COULD have change. You don't. Klammy is right...you're a fatalist.
Now, IF a Republican runs as an independent this year, I would expect a better than average year, but don't look for anyone to crack 5% on their own. You say fatalist, I say realist.
Could change... sure. I could also win the lottery.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
What % of people do you think vote major party but would vote 3rd party if (like you) they thought "they had a chance for actual change"?89Hen wrote:It's not like it's close guys. It's been 26 years since Ross Perot got almost 19% of the vote. Nothing has been close since. Last year all the third party together didn't crack 6%.AZGrizFan wrote:
No, what I get and you don't is that if people keep saying "I'm a third party proponent and the system is broken" and then continue to vote for one of the two major parties, we'll NEVER have a "chance for actual change". I guess the difference is I believe we COULD have change. You don't. Klammy is right...you're a fatalist.
Now, IF a Republican runs as an independent this year, I would expect a better than average year, but don't look for anyone to crack 5% on their own. You say fatalist, I say realist.
Could change... sure. I could also win the lottery.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
AZGrizFan wrote:What % of people do you think vote major party but would vote 3rd party if (like you) they thought "they had a chance for actual change"?89Hen wrote: It's not like it's close guys. It's been 26 years since Ross Perot got almost 19% of the vote. Nothing has been close since. Last year all the third party together didn't crack 6%.
Now, IF a Republican runs as an independent this year, I would expect a better than average year, but don't look for anyone to crack 5% on their own. You say fatalist, I say realist.
Could change... sure. I could also win the lottery.
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I’d be on board with ranked choice.dbackjon wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:
What % of people do you think vote major party but would vote 3rd party if (like you) they thought "they had a chance for actual change"?
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
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Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
Same here.Ibanez wrote:I’d be on board with ranked choice.dbackjon wrote:
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I'd be fine with ranked choice in primaries, but I don't think it would make any difference in the actual Presidential election. Besides, it ends up giving the eventual winner even more of a mandate (the "see, I had more than 50% of the vote, people really wanted me" vibe). This past election was a perfect example - both Hillary and Trump were terrible candidates - why do we want a system that bestows any more mandate on the winner of that election than what they already had? Ranked voting kinda covers over the ugly warts of an election and shines it up to look pretty.dbackjon wrote:AZGrizFan wrote:
What % of people do you think vote major party but would vote 3rd party if (like you) they thought "they had a chance for actual change"?
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
GannonFan wrote:I'd be fine with ranked choice in primaries, but I don't think it would make any difference in the actual Presidential election. Besides, it ends up giving the eventual winner even more of a mandate (the "see, I had more than 50% of the vote, people really wanted me" vibe). This past election was a perfect example - both Hillary and Trump were terrible candidates - why do we want a system that bestows any more mandate on the winner of that election than what they already had? Ranked voting kinda covers over the ugly warts of an election and shines it up to look pretty.dbackjon wrote:
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
But it might make a difference in getting other members elected. Need to start there.
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
Cumulative voting would actually give a third or fourth party a better shot at winning seats in the House.
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I think the concept is intriguing. I could have had a ballot that looked something like this:Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:Same here.Ibanez wrote: I’d be on board with ranked choice.
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1) Gary Johnson
2) Willie Nelson
3) Donald Duck
4) Mickey Mouse
5) Kid Rock
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
99) Donald Trump
100) Hildabeast
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
Hence the idea that Trump still would've won and he could've claimed a more than 50% mandate.AZGrizFan wrote:I think the concept is intriguing. I could have had a ballot that looked something like this:Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Same here.
1) Gary Johnson
2) Willie Nelson
3) Donald Duck
4) Mickey Mouse
5) Kid Rock
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
99) Donald Trump
100) Hildabeast
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
Sure, but in some cases it would be someone's second or third choice, which doesn't really mean they'd want those candidates either. I've seen Parliamentary governments, I really wouldn't want one of those here.dbackjon wrote:Cumulative voting would actually give a third or fourth party a better shot at winning seats in the House.
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
Can he really claim a "mandate" if it takes 99 ballots to get him one?GannonFan wrote:Hence the idea that Trump still would've won and he could've claimed a more than 50% mandate.AZGrizFan wrote:
I think the concept is intriguing. I could have had a ballot that looked something like this:
1) Gary Johnson
2) Willie Nelson
3) Donald Duck
4) Mickey Mouse
5) Kid Rock
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
99) Donald Trump
100) Hildabeast
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
GannonFan wrote:Sure, but in some cases it would be someone's second or third choice, which doesn't really mean they'd want those candidates either. I've seen Parliamentary governments, I really wouldn't want one of those here.dbackjon wrote:Cumulative voting would actually give a third or fourth party a better shot at winning seats in the House.
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
“Since we aren’t a parliamentary system, I love everything about it.”dbackjon wrote:GannonFan wrote:
Sure, but in some cases it would be someone's second or third choice, which doesn't really mean they'd want those candidates either. I've seen Parliamentary governments, I really wouldn't want one of those here.
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
10AZGrizFan wrote:What % of people do you think vote major party but would vote 3rd party if (like you) they thought "they had a chance for actual change"?89Hen wrote: It's not like it's close guys. It's been 26 years since Ross Perot got almost 19% of the vote. Nothing has been close since. Last year all the third party together didn't crack 6%.
Now, IF a Republican runs as an independent this year, I would expect a better than average year, but don't look for anyone to crack 5% on their own. You say fatalist, I say realist.
Could change... sure. I could also win the lottery.
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I don't like narrow-minded, single-issue political groups. For all of their warts, I prefer the bigger umbrella political parties that bring those groups together. Or do you actually like political parties like the UKIP? The Weimar Republic and the flip flop coalitions are other great examples of the wonder of Parliamentary systems. I'll take our setup, warts and all.dbackjon wrote:GannonFan wrote:
Sure, but in some cases it would be someone's second or third choice, which doesn't really mean they'd want those candidates either. I've seen Parliamentary governments, I really wouldn't want one of those here.
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
It’s unconstitutional in federal elections, but other than that...dbackjon wrote:GannonFan wrote:
Sure, but in some cases it would be someone's second or third choice, which doesn't really mean they'd want those candidates either. I've seen Parliamentary governments, I really wouldn't want one of those here.
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
I think the last Presidential election is an example of one in which it could have made a difference. Trump did not get a majority of the vote in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, or Wisconsin. And the margins were extremely close in those States. What if people who did not vote for either major Party candidate in those States had been able to indicate a second choice that would've gotten their vote if nobody got at least 50%? Not implausible at all that it could've made a difference.GannonFan wrote:I'd be fine with ranked choice in primaries, but I don't think it would make any difference in the actual Presidential election. .dbackjon wrote:
Then support ranked choice or cumulative voting
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
GannonFan wrote:I don't like narrow-minded, single-issue political groups. For all of their warts, I prefer the bigger umbrella political parties that bring those groups together. Or do you actually like political parties like the UKIP? The Weimar Republic and the flip flop coalitions are other great examples of the wonder of Parliamentary systems. I'll take our setup, warts and all.dbackjon wrote:
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
No, I like our system better. However, the reality is we have single interest parties that are in a coalition to govern - Groups like the Freedom Caucus are no different than the UKIP, and have a disproportionate control over the GOP.
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Re: April 2019 Presidential Preference Poll
There is the Amendment process.Ivytalk wrote:It’s unconstitutional in federal elections, but other than that...dbackjon wrote:
Do you know what I mean by cumulative voting?
What part of a Parliamentary government do you not like?
And cite where you think it is unconstitutional