Why Trump Will Win Again

[Winterborn]

How quaint. Trips wants to take us back to the halcyon days of the Articles of Confederation.

And he doesn’t believe in the principle of judicial review, nor does he appreciate being “randomly born into” a republic governed by a Constitution that he didn’t write. Nihilism, pure and simple. That’s the Trippsian philosophy of guvmint.

And, by the way, *tenets.

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Maybe you should try reading a book instead of just coloring in it. Everybody can learn the same information if they want. Even us folks in fly-over country have the same opportunities as the Ivy folks....


The Articles of Confederation were a mess and led to next to nothing getting done. Each state had their own interests that they were looking out for and the bigger picture (as a whole) was rarely considered unless it happened to help a particular state or two out. Trying to get a consensus on anything was extreamly difficult.

[CID1990]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

You just described a scenario where someone doesn’t like the country they were born in and decides to immigrate to a more suitable one.

We are a representative Republic. That is only a problem when it produces results you don’t like.

[CID1990]

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Funny thing is that philosophically, I'm probably more small-government than all of these cons combined. Yet they think I'm big govt 'cause I argue taxes should be spent on society helping itself.

But apparently tax breaks, militarization, and corporate hand-outs means we're a freer society; and a society which uses its own capital to benefit itself is stomping on the ideals of liberty.

And here comes CID with his boring argument that "socialism leads to murder."

I’m not responding to all those stacked straw men you just tried

Oft repeated history is my evidence

[Baldy]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

If only society would come together as one and help each other...

You know, collectivist societies of all types have been tried over several millennia. There is a reason none of them have worked. As any writing from Aristotle, Plato, Locke, or Freud on this subject will tell you, collectivism goes against basic human nature. Just like any other animal, self preservation is the essence of one's existence...the desire and need to provide for themselves and their family.

As been shown time and time again, the only way to achieve this version of your sick Utopia is by force.

[CID1990]

As CID and Chizzy posted, our system is flawed not broken. Those flaws are also part of what makes it work.

Take away all of the flaws that Trip wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the left and while Trip will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now. Take away the flaws that someone like BDK wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the right and while BDK will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now.

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Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

That time the “thoughtful moderate” embraced radical structural change


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[kalm]

Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

That time the “thoughtful moderate” embraced radical structural change


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Thanks for proving my point.

[CID1990]

That time the “thoughtful moderate” embraced radical structural change


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Thanks for proving my point.

Yes klam you win I proved whatever point you thought you were making


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[kalm]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

If only society would come together as one and help each other...

You know, collectivist societies of all types have been tried over several millennia. There is a reason none of them have worked. As any writing from Aristotle, Plato, Locke, or Freud on this subject will tell you, collectivism goes against basic human nature. Just like any other animal, self preservation is the essence of one's existence...the desire and need to provide for themselves and their family.

As been shown time and time again, the only way to achieve this version of your sick Utopia is by force.

Positive acts of selflessness and cooperation occur in humans and nature. Mama grizzly taking on an infanticidal male, schools of fish, etc. No one is preaching your boogeyman of collectivism here.

[BDKJMU]

As CID and Chizzy posted, our system is flawed not broken. Those flaws are also part of what makes it work.

Take away all of the flaws that Trip wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the left and while Trip will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now. Take away the flaws that someone like BDK wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the right and while BDK will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now.

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Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

[CID1990]

Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

Remember - nobody who went to the Harvard of the Palouse has ever seen anything spiked out of a gym


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[kalm]

Remember - nobody who went to the Harvard of the Palouse has ever seen anything spiked out of a gym


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True story...I completed my PE credits with a Wally Ball class. Me, another white dude and 20 Japanese foreign students. I broke noses with my 4+Inch vertical and they considered me a god.

[kalm]

Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

It’s ok. You’re too low information to follow along.

[BDKJMU]

It’s ok. You’re too low information to follow along.

Well you're if you think Trip "spiked" anything with his collectivist utopian drivel.

[kalm]

It’s ok. You’re too low information to follow along.

Well you're if you think Trip "spiked" anything with his collectivist utopian drivel.

It’s ok. I’ll continue to give props to you too on the occasions when you make a sensible post.

[Baldy]

If only society would come together as one and help each other...

You know, collectivist societies of all types have been tried over several millennia. There is a reason none of them have worked. As any writing from Aristotle, Plato, Locke, or Freud on this subject will tell you, collectivism goes against basic human nature. Just like any other animal, self preservation is the essence of one's existence...the desire and need to provide for themselves and their family.

As been shown time and time again, the only way to achieve this version of your sick Utopia is by force.

Positive acts of selflessness and cooperation occur in humans and nature. Mama grizzly taking on an infanticidal male, schools of fish, etc. No one is preaching your boogeyman of collectivism here.

I'm not talking about individual acts. I'm talking about basing a society on those beliefs, and this is exactly what Trip is suggesting..."people should take care of the community first instead of themselves".

That was attempted on this very continent when the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth in 1620. You and Trip do yourselves a favor and read William Bradford's Of Plymouth Plantation and see how it ended. Bradford was Governor of Plymouth Colony for over 30 years and has an amazing story to tell.

[∞∞∞]

It’s ok. You’re too low information to follow along.

Well you're if you think Trip "spiked" anything with his collectivist utopian drivel.

I swear you don't read anything I say...literally said I'm not a fan of communism.

And if you're implying that the very basic concept of communities taking care of each other is "utopian drivel," then I pity your selfishness and lack of empathy.

[CID1990]

Well you're if you think Trip "spiked" anything with his collectivist utopian drivel.

I swear you don't read anything I say...literally said I'm not a fan of communism.

And if you're implying that the very basic concept of communities taking care of each other is "utopian drivel," then I pity your selfishness and lack of empathy.

You'll have to pardon BDK

He probably was conflating what you said in this thread with the hundreds of previous examples of where you actually support a complete remake of the fabric of our political systems and shift to a command economy

[∞∞∞]

I'm talking about basing a society on those beliefs, and this is exactly what Trip is suggesting..."people should take care of the community first instead of themselves".

Literally every society in history, including the US, is based on community and not the individual. Otherwise we wouldn't have governments, or anything really. I don't know what you think humanity is.

[∞∞∞]

He probably was conflating what you said in this thread with the hundreds of previous examples of where you actually support a complete remake of the fabric of our political systems and shift to a command economy

edit: not worth the argument anymore.

[kalm]

Positive acts of selflessness and cooperation occur in humans and nature. Mama grizzly taking on an infanticidal male, schools of fish, etc. No one is preaching your boogeyman of collectivism here.

I'm not talking about individual acts. I'm talking about basing a society on those beliefs, and this is exactly what Trip is suggesting..."people should take care of the community first instead of themselves".
.

Trip said THAT? Well I disagree then. It’s tough to take care of others if you’re not taking care of yourself.

Trip...is that actually what you said?

[kalm]

I swear you don't read anything I say...literally said I'm not a fan of communism.

And if you're implying that the very basic concept of communities taking care of each other is "utopian drivel," then I pity your selfishness and lack of empathy.

You'll have to pardon BDK

He probably was conflating what you said in this thread with the hundreds of previous examples of where you actually support a complete remake of the fabric of our political systems and shift to a command economy

Ok..CID Quixote...Knock down your @doctrinaire Democrats” “maoists” and “command economy” demons...

[SDHornet]

I'd say the odds are 50:50. So you have a good chance of being able to claim you called it correctly regardless of which way you go.

The situation remains the same. Trump won under a unique set of circumstances. His opponent had been under FBI investigation through much of the campaign. Then Comey dropped his bomb shortly before the election. Meanwhile, there was division on the Democrat side due to Sanders fans thinking he got screwed. And the Russians exacerbated that problem with the e mails hack. The situation in the swing states was much more a matter of less support for the Democrat candidate than it was the Republican gaining support. The most extreme example of that was Trump winning Florida in spite of getting a lower percentage of the vote in that State than Romney got in 2012. He also won Wisconsin in spite of getting fewer votes in that State than Romney got (the percent he got was higher but that's because overall turnout was down). He won Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin without getting majorities of the vote in any of those States. Black turnout was down.

If the Democrats develop enthusiasm among the people that normally vote for them they will win. If they don't, they won't.

The bad news is that I'm seeing indications that Sanders wants to do the same kind of disrupt the apple cart crap he did last time.

Wrong. Sanders was the apple cart and the DNC did the upsetting and fucked themselves in the general election when they ratfucked Bernie in the primary - the ne plus ultra of "hoist by their own petard" in the history of American politics. If they pull the same shit with superdelegates this time the Sanders people stay home again. He's drawing bigger crowds than anyone in the field and raising more money too and he's doing under a near-total media blackout.

This. I'm waiting to see how the DNC ratfucks Sanders again this time around.

[CID1990]

You'll have to pardon BDK

He probably was conflating what you said in this thread with the hundreds of previous examples of where you actually support a complete remake of the fabric of our political systems and shift to a command economy

Ok..CID Quixote...Knock down your @doctrinaire Democrats” “maoists” and “command economy” demons...

Orly?

How about this - why don’t you tell us how you plan to fix our economic injustices without picking winners and losers? It already happens to a degree but putting politicians in charge of competition doesn’t happen without nationalization and the creation command economies

So whine away about what’s wrong. The medicine you’d offer is no less bitter and I’ll point that out (even though it stands zero chance of happening)


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[kalm]

Ok..CID Quixote...Knock down your @doctrinaire Democrats” “maoists” and “command economy” demons...

Orly?

How about this - why don’t you tell us how you plan to fix our economic injustices without picking winners and losers? It already happens to a degree but putting politicians in charge of competition doesn’t happen without nationalization and the creation command economies

So whine away about what’s wrong. The medicine you’d offer is no less bitter and I’ll point that out (even though it stands zero chance of happening)


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That’s my point. You sling the phrase command economy around hoping to hit a true Marxist. Your arm must be getting tired by now.

It’s a loaded, big ass question you ask but there are numerous things that can help with economic justice and without turning us into the Soviet States of America. I’m quite sure you know of and have studied some them.

But let me guess...your next response will be a slippery slope argument about letting the genie out of the bottle or something along those lines...

[CID1990]

Orly?

How about this - why don’t you tell us how you plan to fix our economic injustices without picking winners and losers? It already happens to a degree but putting politicians in charge of competition doesn’t happen without nationalization and the creation command economies

So whine away about what’s wrong. The medicine you’d offer is no less bitter and I’ll point that out (even though it stands zero chance of happening)


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That’s my point. You sling the phrase command economy around hoping to hit a true Marxist. Your arm must be getting tired by now.

It’s a loaded, big ass question you ask but there are numerous things that can help with economic justice and without turning us into the Soviet States of America. I’m quite sure you know of and have studied some them.

But let me guess...your next response will be a slippery slope argument about letting the genie out of the bottle or something along those lines...

That’s a lot of deflection but you’ve produced JSO amounts of complaints with few details about your cure.

And you cheerlead the most mush headed socialist here so I’m not sure what assumptions you expect people to make

When you offer details that don’t involve simply picking a different set of winners then I’ll weigh that against what is, up until now, a safe assumption about your solutions


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