2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

[AZGrizFan]

Yeah, now THERE's a accurate comparison...

Yet they are both proponents of MMT and only one of them has nearly destroyed the world wide economy through his economic beliefs.

So here we are.

He's forgotten more than she ever knew about economics. You just KNOW she slept her way to her degree.

So now you're blaming the economic collapse on Greenspan?

[kalm]

Yet they are both proponents of MMT and only one of them has nearly destroyed the world wide economy through his economic beliefs.

So here we are.

He's forgotten more than she ever knew about economics. You just KNOW she slept her way to her degree.

So now you're blaming the economic collapse on Greenspan?

Well I would hope he has. But no. I do not know whether she slept her way to her degree any more than you did ya filthy whore.

The Great Recession has many causes. Greenspan’s economic theories were one of them. He admitted it it in congressional testimony.

[UNI88]

He's forgotten more than she ever knew about economics. You just KNOW she slept her way to her degree.

So now you're blaming the economic collapse on Greenspan?

Well I would hope he has. But no. I do not know whether she slept her way to her degree any more than you did ya filthy whore.

The Great Recession has many causes. Greenspan’s economic theories were one of them. He admitted it it in congressional testimony.

That is true. Greenspan screwing up doesn't mean that he doesn't know anything about economics though. I lean toward Austrian economics so while I didn't agree with him, his views were not based on ignorance. AOC's comments after she helped chase Amazon away showed her lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

[kalm]

Well I would hope he has. But no. I do not know whether she slept her way to her degree any more than you did ya filthy whore.

The Great Recession has many causes. Greenspan’s economic theories were one of them. He admitted it it in congressional testimony.

That is true. Greenspan screwing up doesn't mean that he doesn't know anything about economics though. I lean toward Austrian economics so while I didn't agree with him, his views were not based on ignorance. AOC's comments after she helped chase Amazon away showed her lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

Which basic economic principles?

[UNI88]

That is true. Greenspan screwing up doesn't mean that he doesn't know anything about economics though. I lean toward Austrian economics so while I didn't agree with him, his views were not based on ignorance. AOC's comments after she helped chase Amazon away showed her lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

Which basic economic principles?

The principle that says unused tax incentives aren't money in your account that you can actually spend on something else - “Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”

No, you can’t. Ocasio-Cortez does not seem to realize that New York does not have $3 billion in cash sitting around waiting to be spent on her socialist dreams. The subsidies to Amazon were tax incentives, not cash payouts. It is Amazon’s money, which New York agreed to make tax-exempt, so the company would invest it in building its new headquarters, hiring new workers and generating tens of billions in new tax revenue.

As New York Mayor Bill de Blasio explained, the Amazon deal would have produced “$27 billion in new tax revenue to fuel priorities from transit to affordable housing — a nine-fold return on the taxes the city and state were prepared to forgo to win the headquarters.” Unlike Ocasio-Cortez’s imaginary $3 billion slush fund, that is real money that actually could have been used to hire teachers, fix subways and put people to work. With Amazon leaving New York, that $27 billion leaves with it. Genius.

Ocasio-Cortez does not seem to understand that by helping to drive Amazon away, she did not save New York $3 billion; she cost New York $27 billion. There is a difference between having bad ideas and not grasping basic facts. Reasonable people can disagree about whether New York should have offered Amazon $3 billion in tax incentives — or anything at all — to build its headquarters in the city. But that is different from not understanding that New York is not writing a $3 billion check to Amazon.

Amazon blow up shows AOC an economic illiterate

[SDHornet]

Wait so someone is actually arguing that AOC isn't dumber than a box of rocks?

[Ivytalk]

Wait so someone is actually arguing that AOC isn't dumber than a box of rocks?

That’s true.

It’s also true that she could suck-start a 747.

[kalm]

Which basic economic principles?

The principle that says unused tax incentives aren't money in your account that you can actually spend on something else - “Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”

No, you can’t. Ocasio-Cortez does not seem to realize that New York does not have $3 billion in cash sitting around waiting to be spent on her socialist dreams. The subsidies to Amazon were tax incentives, not cash payouts. It is Amazon’s money, which New York agreed to make tax-exempt, so the company would invest it in building its new headquarters, hiring new workers and generating tens of billions in new tax revenue.

As New York Mayor Bill de Blasio explained, the Amazon deal would have produced “$27 billion in new tax revenue to fuel priorities from transit to affordable housing — a nine-fold return on the taxes the city and state were prepared to forgo to win the headquarters.” Unlike Ocasio-Cortez’s imaginary $3 billion slush fund, that is real money that actually could have been used to hire teachers, fix subways and put people to work. With Amazon leaving New York, that $27 billion leaves with it. Genius.

Ocasio-Cortez does not seem to understand that by helping to drive Amazon away, she did not save New York $3 billion; she cost New York $27 billion. There is a difference between having bad ideas and not grasping basic facts. Reasonable people can disagree about whether New York should have offered Amazon $3 billion in tax incentives — or anything at all — to build its headquarters in the city. But that is different from not understanding that New York is not writing a $3 billion check to Amazon.

Amazon blow up shows AOC an economic illiterate

So a speech writer for GWB is on the side of corporate welfare?

I didn’t know your economic principles included government picking winners and losers at the expense of the tax payers. You must be all for cities footing the bill for new stadiums too.

So much for limited government. How libertarian of you.

Since your article is a year old, here’s an update:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

Turns out the economic development numbers might not have ended being as advertised.

[houndawg]

Bernie loves him some AOC. If that's not proof enough I don't know what is.

So do I, if for nothing more than the fact she punches back and has left many a quivering conk vag in her wake.

This here. Funny as hell how she can take them to school - I've noticed they pretty much leave her alone now

[houndawg]

Yet they are both proponents of MMT and only one of them has nearly destroyed the world wide economy through his economic beliefs.

So here we are.

He's forgotten more than she ever knew about economics. You just KNOW she slept her way to her degree.

So now you're blaming the economic collapse on Greenspan?

Any competent astrologer is at least his equal as an economist.

[HI54UNI]

The principle that says unused tax incentives aren't money in your account that you can actually spend on something else - “Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”



Amazon blow up shows AOC an economic illiterate

So a speech writer for GWB is on the side of corporate welfare?

I didn’t know your economic principles included government picking winners and losers at the expense of the tax payers. You must be all for cities footing the bill for new stadiums too.

So much for limited government. How libertarian of you.

Since your article is a year old, here’s an update:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

Turns out the economic development numbers might not have ended being as advertised.

Amazon did move into NYC but outside of AOC's district and is only bringing 1,500 jobs instead of 25,000 jobs.

And the article about corporate welfare you posted is irrelevant to the discussion about AOC's stupidty. Yes AOC or anybody else can argue that Amazon didn't need the incentives or that they don't make a major difference in the corporate decision making. I'm all for a nationwide ban on incentives like this because if one city/county/state does it everybody has to do it to compete. But as noted earlier that's not what she was saying. She wanted to spend the $3 billion on other things without understanding that if there is no Amazon the $3 billion doesn't exist to spend.

[kalm]

So a speech writer for GWB is on the side of corporate welfare?

I didn’t know your economic principles included government picking winners and losers at the expense of the tax payers. You must be all for cities footing the bill for new stadiums too.

So much for limited government. How libertarian of you.

Since your article is a year old, here’s an update:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp

Turns out the economic development numbers might not have ended being as advertised.

Amazon did move into NYC but outside of AOC's district and is only bringing 1,500 jobs instead of 25,000 jobs.

And the article about corporate welfare you posted is irrelevant to the discussion about AOC's stupidty. Yes AOC or anybody else can argue that Amazon didn't need the incentives or that they don't make a major difference in the corporate decision making. I'm all for a nationwide ban on incentives like this because if one city/county/state does it everybody has to do it to compete. But as noted earlier that's not what she was saying. She wanted to spend the $3 billion on other things without understanding that if there is no Amazon the $3 billion doesn't exist to spend.

The 25,000 jobs number was no guarantee, spread out over decades, and debatable. Same with the ED numbers not to mention the unintended consequences that go along with it. It’s easy to pencil out tax revenue numbers without considering the impact of infrastructure, government support services, schools, housing etc.

Amazon just completed a DC 2 miles from our old house and my business on a newly formed PDA. It’s bringing in 1800 jobs and they get all sorts of tax incentives reduced utilities rates etc. The local Politicians from both sides of the aisle now require rotator cuff surgery from all the self congratulatory back patting.

Meanwhile, small businesses just outside the PDA across the street are paying 50% higher utilities rates, in an essence, further subsidizing Amazon.

There’s also a severe shortage of multi-family housing in the region thanks to the Growth Managememt Act. Home builders continue to churn out $350,000 single dwelling houses to fit the current neighborhood but none of those $15/hour Amazon jobs will pay for that...at least unless the banks loosen lending standards again. (And we all know where that leads:ohno: ) Then, one of the few apartment complexes approved through zoning is being fought tooth and nail by the existing residents to hold on to gentrification. Who wants the hoi poloi and their brood living across the street, causing a ruckus? But hey, if it goes through, we can build them a playground or two to keep the little urchins off the street but that requires raising property taxes because the county is broke.

And what about new schools? Well here comes another levy. Cheney SD is already busting at the seams so we’ll need to raise another $50 million to support a new high school, middle school, and grade school.

All the old farts without kids who actually turn out to vote will raise 60 kinds of hell....

Welcome to the machine...

[HI54UNI]

Amazon did move into NYC but outside of AOC's district and is only bringing 1,500 jobs instead of 25,000 jobs.

And the article about corporate welfare you posted is irrelevant to the discussion about AOC's stupidty. Yes AOC or anybody else can argue that Amazon didn't need the incentives or that they don't make a major difference in the corporate decision making. I'm all for a nationwide ban on incentives like this because if one city/county/state does it everybody has to do it to compete. But as noted earlier that's not what she was saying. She wanted to spend the $3 billion on other things without understanding that if there is no Amazon the $3 billion doesn't exist to spend.

The 25,000 jobs number was no guarantee, spread out over decades, and debatable. Same with the ED numbers not to mention the unintended consequences that go along with it. It’s easy to pencil out tax revenue numbers without considering the impact of infrastructure, government support services, schools, housing etc.

Amazon just completed a DC 2 miles from our old house and my business on a newly formed PDA. It’s bringing in 1800 jobs and they get all sorts of tax incentives reduced utilities rates etc. The local Politicians from both sides of the aisle now require rotator cuff surgery from all the self congratulatory back patting.

Meanwhile, small businesses just outside the PDA across the street are paying 50% higher utilities rates, in an essence, further subsidizing Amazon.

There’s also a severe shortage of multi-family housing in the region thanks to the Growth Managememt Act. Home builders continue to churn out $350,000 single dwelling houses to fit the current neighborhood but none of those $15/hour Amazon jobs will pay for that...at least unless the banks loosen lending standards again. (And we all know where that leads:ohno: ) Then, one of the few apartment complexes approved through zoning is being fought tooth and nail by the existing residents to hold on to gentrification. Who wants the hoi poloi and their brood living across the street, causing a ruckus? But hey, if it goes through, we can build them a playground or two to keep the little urchins off the street but that requires raising property taxes because the county is broke.

And what about new schools? Well here comes another levy. Cheney SD is already busting at the seams so we’ll need to raise another $50 million to support a new high school, middle school, and grade school.

All the old farts without kids who actually turn out to vote will raise 60 kinds of hell....

Welcome to the machine...

Again, all relevant items for discussion when handing out incentives or promoting any kind of economic development but irrelevant to the fact that AOC is dumber than a box of rocks and was trying to spend money that NYC doesn't have unless Amazon shows up and builds.

[AZGrizFan]

Turns out the economic development numbers might not have ended being as advertised.

So, you (and the author of this shitty piece) expected Amazon to build and immediately staff with 15,000 people making $150,000/yr?

Perhaps the "dumber than a box of rocks" moniker fits both of you as well.

You should go spend that mythical $3 billion with AOC, bro.

[AZGrizFan]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-ri ... -opponents

EXCLUSIVE: Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has already topped the fundraising charts in her short time in Congress, but the liberal darling won’t donate a cent of her millions to Democrats' House campaign organization -- a position that has rankled some of her colleagues, Fox News has learned.
Instead, Ocasio-Cortez is building her own fundraising operation for fellow progressive candidates to bypass the official Democratic Party infrastructure. Already, she's actively funding primary challengers to oust certain Democratic colleagues.
“Sometimes the question comes: 'Do you want to be in a majority or do you want to be in the minority?'” Rep. Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., told Fox News, when asked about AOC's stance. “And do you want to be part of a team?"
Another source was less diplomatic: “Deadbeat Cortez should pay her bills,” complained a House Democratic aide. “She’s always whining about people paying their fair share and here she is leaving her friends with the bill.”
Their gripe is that Ocasio-Cortez hasn’t given any money to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party arm with the sole job of electing Democrats to the House. Records obtained by Fox News show the New York Democrat has failed to pay any of her $250,000 in “dues” to the DCCC.
Her goose egg of a contribution is no accident. Ocasio-Cortez says she has beef with the DCCC and she'll withhold her money in protest of how the Democratic Party won't back insurgent progressive primary candidates, like herself, in the name of protecting incumbents.
“For me personally, I’m not paying D-trip dues,” said Ocasio-Cortez, using slang for the DCCC and citing a “myriad of reasons.”
“One, I don’t agree with the policy around blacklisting groups that help progressive candidates,” she said, referring to a DCCC effort to sideline vendors who assist challengers to members of Congress. “I think we need to evolve as a party and make room for that.”

Ol' AOC, making friends and influencing people!

[kalm]

Turns out the economic development numbers might not have ended being as advertised.

So, you (and the author of this shitty piece) expected Amazon to build and immediately staff with 15,000 people making $150,000/yr?

Perhaps the "dumber than a box of rocks" moniker fits both of you as well.

You should go spend that mythical $3 billion with AOC, bro.

I get that. My point being there are substantial costs to the city associated with Amazon locating there. It also depends on how you view budgeting. It might be worth the tax incentives provided even after the tax payers provide infrastructure and pay for services delivered for free to Amazon. It might.

But if a company is willing to locate there anyway and pay the taxes, you just created $3 billion in revenue for the coffers vs a handout.

[kalm]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-ri ... -opponents

EXCLUSIVE: Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has already topped the fundraising charts in her short time in Congress, but the liberal darling won’t donate a cent of her millions to Democrats' House campaign organization -- a position that has rankled some of her colleagues, Fox News has learned.
Instead, Ocasio-Cortez is building her own fundraising operation for fellow progressive candidates to bypass the official Democratic Party infrastructure. Already, she's actively funding primary challengers to oust certain Democratic colleagues.
“Sometimes the question comes: 'Do you want to be in a majority or do you want to be in the minority?'” Rep. Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., told Fox News, when asked about AOC's stance. “And do you want to be part of a team?"
Another source was less diplomatic: “Deadbeat Cortez should pay her bills,” complained a House Democratic aide. “She’s always whining about people paying their fair share and here she is leaving her friends with the bill.”
Their gripe is that Ocasio-Cortez hasn’t given any money to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party arm with the sole job of electing Democrats to the House. Records obtained by Fox News show the New York Democrat has failed to pay any of her $250,000 in “dues” to the DCCC.
Her goose egg of a contribution is no accident. Ocasio-Cortez says she has beef with the DCCC and she'll withhold her money in protest of how the Democratic Party won't back insurgent progressive primary candidates, like herself, in the name of protecting incumbents.
“For me personally, I’m not paying D-trip dues,” said Ocasio-Cortez, using slang for the DCCC and citing a “myriad of reasons.”
“One, I don’t agree with the policy around blacklisting groups that help progressive candidates,” she said, referring to a DCCC effort to sideline vendors who assist challengers to members of Congress. “I think we need to evolve as a party and make room for that.”

Ol' AOC, making friends and influencing people!

So she’s not going to pay the organization that funded her primary opponent and who’s ideologically opposed and openly hostile to her wing of the party. And that’s a bad thing how?

Here’s a hint...there are shit ton of liberals who don’t like DCCC.

[AZGrizFan]

So, you (and the author of this shitty piece) expected Amazon to build and immediately staff with 15,000 people making $150,000/yr?

Perhaps the "dumber than a box of rocks" moniker fits both of you as well.

You should go spend that mythical $3 billion with AOC, bro.

I get that. My point being there are substantial costs to the city associated with Amazon locating there. It also depends on how you view budgeting. It might be worth the tax incentives provided even after the tax payers provide infrastructure and pay for services delivered for free to Amazon. It might.

But if a company is willing to locate there anyway and pay the taxes, you just created $3 billion in revenue for the coffers vs a handout.

There's a substantial cost to ANY city to get ANY company of note to (re)locate there. But it's the way the game is now played--hell, it's played by cities trying to KEEP companies from moving. But tax incentives have a life cycle and eventually run out. Infrastructure/services delivered for free ENDS at some point. The jobs/pay/economic boom are forever (relatively speaking).

And 1500 jobs <> 15,000 jobs. They in no way created anything remotely close to $3 billion in revenue in NY getting such a paltry piece of the pie.

[AZGrizFan]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-ri ... -opponents



Ol' AOC, making friends and influencing people!

So she’s not going to pay the organization that funded her primary opponent and who’s ideologically opposed and openly hostile to her wing of the party. And that’s a bad thing how?

Here’s a hint...there are shit ton of liberals who don’t like DCCC.

Her "wing" consists of four people. Out of 435. And all four are batshit crazy.

[UNI88]

So, you (and the author of this shitty piece) expected Amazon to build and immediately staff with 15,000 people making $150,000/yr?

Perhaps the "dumber than a box of rocks" moniker fits both of you as well.

You should go spend that mythical $3 billion with AOC, bro.

I get that. My point being there are substantial costs to the city associated with Amazon locating there. It also depends on how you view budgeting. It might be worth the tax incentives provided even after the tax payers provide infrastructure and pay for services delivered for free to Amazon. It might.

But if a company is willing to locate there anyway and pay the taxes, you just created $3 billion in revenue for the coffers vs a handout.

You originally asked for proof that AOC didn't understand basic economic principles. You've been given one example, ignored it and gone off down the rabbit hole of tax incentives. Tax incentives are well worth debating and I don't disagree with your underlying point but that wasn't the question that you asked and the Fiver and I answered.

AOC is an economics major who doesn't understand economics.

[kalm]

So she’s not going to pay the organization that funded her primary opponent and who’s ideologically opposed and openly hostile to her wing of the party. And that’s a bad thing how?

Here’s a hint...there are shit ton of liberals who don’t like DCCC.

Her "wing" consists of four people. Out of 435. And all four are batshit crazy.

Yeah there’s 98 members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

[UNI88]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-ri ... -opponents

EXCLUSIVE: Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has already topped the fundraising charts in her short time in Congress, but the liberal darling won’t donate a cent of her millions to Democrats' House campaign organization -- a position that has rankled some of her colleagues, Fox News has learned.
Instead, Ocasio-Cortez is building her own fundraising operation for fellow progressive candidates to bypass the official Democratic Party infrastructure. Already, she's actively funding primary challengers to oust certain Democratic colleagues.
“Sometimes the question comes: 'Do you want to be in a majority or do you want to be in the minority?'” Rep. Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., told Fox News, when asked about AOC's stance. “And do you want to be part of a team?"
Another source was less diplomatic: “Deadbeat Cortez should pay her bills,” complained a House Democratic aide. “She’s always whining about people paying their fair share and here she is leaving her friends with the bill.”
Their gripe is that Ocasio-Cortez hasn’t given any money to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party arm with the sole job of electing Democrats to the House. Records obtained by Fox News show the New York Democrat has failed to pay any of her $250,000 in “dues” to the DCCC.
Her goose egg of a contribution is no accident. Ocasio-Cortez says she has beef with the DCCC and she'll withhold her money in protest of how the Democratic Party won't back insurgent progressive primary candidates, like herself, in the name of protecting incumbents.
“For me personally, I’m not paying D-trip dues,” said Ocasio-Cortez, using slang for the DCCC and citing a “myriad of reasons.”
“One, I don’t agree with the policy around blacklisting groups that help progressive candidates,” she said, referring to a DCCC effort to sideline vendors who assist challengers to members of Congress. “I think we need to evolve as a party and make room for that.”

Ol' AOC, making friends and influencing people!

I think it's great. She and her friends are going to primary blue dog and other moderate Democrats just like the Tea Party has been doing to moderate Republicans. Shift the Democratic party to the left and alienate more centrists. Hopefully the middle wakes up and tells both extremist sides that you don't represent us.

[89Hen]

kalm reminds me of the folks here in DC back in 2003ish when the city was chasing a baseball team. The good folks of DC wanted the city to spend hundreds of millions on schools instead of a stadium. As if the city has the money just sitting around with nothing to do with it.

Before stadium:


After stadium:

[kalm]

I get that. My point being there are substantial costs to the city associated with Amazon locating there. It also depends on how you view budgeting. It might be worth the tax incentives provided even after the tax payers provide infrastructure and pay for services delivered for free to Amazon. It might.

But if a company is willing to locate there anyway and pay the taxes, you just created $3 billion in revenue for the coffers vs a handout.

You originally asked for proof that AOC didn't understand basic economic principles. You've been given one example, ignored it and gone off down the rabbit hole of tax incentives. Tax incentives are well worth debating and I don't disagree with your underlying point but that wasn't the question that you asked and the Fiver and I answered.

AOC is an economics major who doesn't understand economics.

The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.

[93henfan]

The lady from the Psychic Friends Network dropped out.

https://www.axios.com/marianne-williams ... 590dd.html