2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by HI54UNI »

kalm wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
You originally asked for proof that AOC didn't understand basic economic principles. You've been given one example, ignored it and gone off down the rabbit hole of tax incentives. Tax incentives are well worth debating and I don't disagree with your underlying point but that wasn't the question that you asked and the Fiver and I answered.

AOC is an economics major who doesn't understand economics.
The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.
That would still be the wrong argument because it implies that the $3 billion is there to spend no matter what. There is no $3 billion to spend unless Amazon comes to town. A better argument would be - you're saying that if we get Amazon there is going to be a net benefit of $24 billion to NY and NYC. How are we going to spend that money? Are we going to help existing businesses? Pay teachers more? Fix the subway? Lower taxes for everyone (like she would say that :lol: )?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by kalm »

HI54UNI wrote:
kalm wrote:
The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.
That would still be the wrong argument because it implies that the $3 billion is there to spend no matter what. There is no $3 billion to spend unless Amazon comes to town. A better argument would be - you're saying that if we get Amazon there is going to be a net benefit of $24 billion to NY and NYC. How are we going to spend that money? Are we going to help existing businesses? Pay teachers more? Fix the subway? Lower taxes for everyone (like she would say that :lol: )?
But aren’t you also implying that a city can afford the infrastructure and service costs while they wait around for eventual revenues?

Overly simple and hyperbolic EG: Spokane County and the City had to do a significant road project and extend sewer and water to get Amazon to locate. Meanwhile, a school’s roof collapsed but they don’t have the money to fix it. But hey! At least we have Amazon.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:kalm reminds me of the folks here in DC back in 2003ish when the city was chasing a baseball team. The good folks of DC wanted the city to spend hundreds of millions on schools instead of a stadium. As if the city has the money just sitting around with nothing to do with it.

Before stadium:
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After stadium:
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A similar thing happened in the GU district thanks to their hoops success and the McCarthy center. But that ED was funded by private money. (Although I’m sure there were some grants and possibly tax incentives there as well.

I’m not opposed to the concept (thoughtful moderate) but you guys are arguing against the free market here. When public-private partnerships are involved you can go ahead and turn in your limited government/picking winners and losers/competition badges at the door.

Thank you.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
You originally asked for proof that AOC didn't understand basic economic principles. You've been given one example, ignored it and gone off down the rabbit hole of tax incentives. Tax incentives are well worth debating and I don't disagree with your underlying point but that wasn't the question that you asked and the Fiver and I answered.

AOC is an economics major who doesn't understand economics.
The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.
You're missing the point. The $3 billion didn't exist. It wasn't money that was going to be given to Amazon as an incentive, it was money that Amazon would not have to pay in taxes. Arguing that "if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc." is difficult because the $3 billion didn't exist and wasn't going to exist while the money to spend on teachers would have to be real money. An economics major should understand that. What she said was stupid for someone with her background.

Theoretically, NY would have had more to spend on teachers if Amazon had come. They would have had the revenue from the construction (permits, income tax) and the employees (income tax).

Whether cities and states should be offering sweatheart deals to companies to stay or relocate is a worthwhile but different debate.

And if that isn't a slam dunk, we can talk about her saying that the Pentagon has $21 Trillion in rounding errors.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:A similar thing happened in the GU district thanks to their hoops success and the McCarthy center. But that ED was funded by private money. (Although I’m sure there were some grants and possibly tax incentives there as well.
GU... you're talking about that private, Jesuit university? Why would anyone have expected that to be funded by the state/county/city?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
HI54UNI wrote:
That would still be the wrong argument because it implies that the $3 billion is there to spend no matter what. There is no $3 billion to spend unless Amazon comes to town. A better argument would be - you're saying that if we get Amazon there is going to be a net benefit of $24 billion to NY and NYC. How are we going to spend that money? Are we going to help existing businesses? Pay teachers more? Fix the subway? Lower taxes for everyone (like she would say that :lol: )?
But aren’t you also implying that a city can afford the infrastructure and service costs while they wait around for eventual revenues?

Overly simple and hyperbolic EG: Spokane County and the City had to do a significant road project and extend sewer and water to get Amazon to locate. Meanwhile, a school’s roof collapsed but they don’t have the money to fix it. But hey! At least we have Amazon.
The tax incentives are an investment in future revenues and an attempt to better the city. If the city can't afford initial costs than they can't afford to make the investment and shouldn't offer the incentives.

I don't know much about Spokane County and City but I would guess you're talking about at least two different taxing bodies. The County/City are most likely separate from the school district. Paying for the roof is the school district's responsibility and the fact that they didn't have a reserve fund to handle something like that is an indictment of their leadership.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by HI54UNI »

kalm wrote:
HI54UNI wrote:
That would still be the wrong argument because it implies that the $3 billion is there to spend no matter what. There is no $3 billion to spend unless Amazon comes to town. A better argument would be - you're saying that if we get Amazon there is going to be a net benefit of $24 billion to NY and NYC. How are we going to spend that money? Are we going to help existing businesses? Pay teachers more? Fix the subway? Lower taxes for everyone (like she would say that :lol: )?
But aren’t you also implying that a city can afford the infrastructure and service costs while they wait around for eventual revenues?

Overly simple and hyperbolic EG: Spokane County and the City had to do a significant road project and extend sewer and water to get Amazon to locate. Meanwhile, a school’s roof collapsed but they don’t have the money to fix it. But hey! At least we have Amazon.
Every state likely has different laws but in Iowa we would set up a tax increment financing (TIF) district and borrow money to pay for the infrastructure improvements against the future TIF revenues from the increased tax base. No problem getting the money for infrastructure improvements if needed.

School issue is completely separate and indicates piss poor management of the school district. Also as 88 noted likely a different taxing authority.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
You originally asked for proof that AOC didn't understand basic economic principles. You've been given one example, ignored it and gone off down the rabbit hole of tax incentives. Tax incentives are well worth debating and I don't disagree with your underlying point but that wasn't the question that you asked and the Fiver and I answered.

AOC is an economics major who doesn't understand economics.
The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.
If...if....if.....if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. She dismissed 15,000 jobs averaging 150,000 a year because she doesn't understand economics. Period. Now they got crumbs (and not even in her district) instead.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote:
kalm wrote:
The proof you provided isn’t the slam dunk you think it is but I understand the point.

If she had simplified her case to ‘if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc.’ it would be stronger. She didn’t and that’s on her.

However from an economics standpoint, that isn’t necessarily wrong if Amazon comes in anyway or is replaced by businesses willing to pay taxes or if the aggregate, long term costs including externalities to the area are a push with the increased eventual revenue.

Economics can be complex and like some of you point out...a soft science.
You're missing the point. The $3 billion didn't exist. It wasn't money that was going to be given to Amazon as an incentive, it was money that Amazon would not have to pay in taxes. Arguing that "if we can afford $3 billion in ED tax incentives we can afford to spend that much on teachers...etc." is difficult because the $3 billion didn't exist and wasn't going to exist while the money to spend on teachers would have to be real money. An economics major should understand that. What she said was stupid for someone with her background.

Theoretically, NY would have had more to spend on teachers if Amazon had come. They would have had the revenue from the construction (permits, income tax) and the employees (income tax).

Whether cities and states should be offering sweatheart deals to companies to stay or relocate is a worthwhile but different debate.

And if that isn't a slam dunk, we can talk about her saying that the Pentagon has $21 Trillion in rounding errors.
Klammy. Stop digging. Please, for the love of GOD stop digging. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:A similar thing happened in the GU district thanks to their hoops success and the McCarthy center. But that ED was funded by private money. (Although I’m sure there were some grants and possibly tax incentives there as well.
GU... you're talking about that private, Jesuit university? Why would anyone have expected that to be funded by the state/county/city?
I’m talking about the commercial development that popped up around GU. It was run down and now it’s thriving with new apartments, shops, bars, etc.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
kalm wrote:
But aren’t you also implying that a city can afford the infrastructure and service costs while they wait around for eventual revenues?

Overly simple and hyperbolic EG: Spokane County and the City had to do a significant road project and extend sewer and water to get Amazon to locate. Meanwhile, a school’s roof collapsed but they don’t have the money to fix it. But hey! At least we have Amazon.
The tax incentives are an investment in future revenues and an attempt to better the city. If the city can't afford initial costs than they can't afford to make the investment and shouldn't offer the incentives.

I don't know much about Spokane County and City but I would guess you're talking about at least two different taxing bodies. The County/City are most likely separate from the school district. Paying for the roof is the school district's responsibility and the fact that they didn't have a reserve fund to handle something like that is an indictment of their leadership.
The airport PDA is joint effort between the City and the county with both entities providing various incentives to locate there.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-ri ... -opponents



Ol' AOC, making friends and influencing people! :lol: :lol:
I think it's great. She and her friends are going to primary blue dog and other moderate Democrats just like the Tea Party has been doing to moderate Republicans. Shift the Democratic party to the left and alienate more centrists. Hopefully the middle wakes up and tells both extremist sides that you don't represent us.
Already happening, my friend. :nod: :nod:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ivytalk wrote:
SDHornet wrote:Wait so someone is actually arguing that AOC isn't dumber than a box of rocks?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
That’s true.

It’s also true that she could suck-start a 747. :nod:
IT, I just wanted you to know that this post did NOT go unnoticed. :kisswink: :kisswink:
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by SDHornet »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:A similar thing happened in the GU district thanks to their hoops success and the McCarthy center. But that ED was funded by private money. (Although I’m sure there were some grants and possibly tax incentives there as well.
GU... you're talking about that private, Jesuit university? Why would anyone have expected that to be funded by the state/county/city?
Nobody should. kalm is just grasping at straws because he is getting taken to task by 88 on AOC's economic incompetence.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by SDHornet »

89Hen wrote:kalm reminds me of the folks here in DC back in 2003ish when the city was chasing a baseball team. The good folks of DC wanted the city to spend hundreds of millions on schools instead of a stadium. As if the city has the money just sitting around with nothing to do with it.

Before stadium:
Image

After stadium:
Image
:nod:

Same thing happened in downtown SD when the Padres got a sweetheart land deal from the City to build Petco. It was built in what was then skid row that demolished a ton of warehouses. The construction lead to the a revitalization of the Gaslamp Quarter that is loaded with entertainment venues (bars, restaurants, shopping) and high rise, high end condos that generate loads of sales and property taxes for the gubmint. None of it happens without some subsidized monies/land.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: GU... you're talking about that private, Jesuit university? Why would anyone have expected that to be funded by the state/county/city?
I’m talking about the commercial development that popped up around GU. It was run down and now it’s thriving with new apartments, shops, bars, etc.
None of the commercial development that popped up around Nats Park was publicly funded. Why would it be?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

SDHornet wrote:
89Hen wrote:kalm reminds me of the folks here in DC back in 2003ish when the city was chasing a baseball team. The good folks of DC wanted the city to spend hundreds of millions on schools instead of a stadium. As if the city has the money just sitting around with nothing to do with it.

Before stadium:
Image

After stadium:
Image
:nod:

Same thing happened in downtown SD when the Padres got a sweetheart land deal from the City to build Petco. It was built in what was then skid row that demolished a ton of warehouses. The construction lead to the a revitalization of the Gaslamp Quarter that is loaded with entertainment venues (bars, restaurants, shopping) and high rise, high end condos that generate loads of sales and property taxes for the gubmint. None of it happens without some subsidized monies/land.
And the same thing happened in downtown Phoenix where the warehouse district was razed to build Bank One (now Chase) Field and America West Arena (now Talking Stick Resort Arena). Totally revitalized the Phoenix downtown area. Unrecognizable today from the dangerous, drug-addled shithole it was 30 years ago.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by SDHornet »

AZGrizFan wrote:
SDHornet wrote: :nod:

Same thing happened in downtown SD when the Padres got a sweetheart land deal from the City to build Petco. It was built in what was then skid row that demolished a ton of warehouses. The construction lead to the a revitalization of the Gaslamp Quarter that is loaded with entertainment venues (bars, restaurants, shopping) and high rise, high end condos that generate loads of sales and property taxes for the gubmint. None of it happens without some subsidized monies/land.
And the same thing happened in downtown Phoenix where the warehouse district was razed to build Bank One (now Chase) Field and America West Arena (now Talking Stick Resort Arena). Totally revitalized the Phoenix downtown area. Unrecognizable today from the dangerous, drug-addled shithole it was 30 years ago.
Downtown Sac is going through that now with the Kings arena.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

AZGrizFan wrote:And the same thing happened in downtown Phoenix where the warehouse district was razed to build Bank One (now Chase) Field and America West Arena (now Talking Stick Resort Arena). Totally revitalized the Phoenix downtown area. Unrecognizable today from the dangerous, drug-addled shithole it was 30 years ago.
Maybe the Coyotes should have stayed?
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

BTW, they've also built a new stadium for the MLS team close to Nats Park and the XFL team will play there too (I think maybe a pro rugby team as well). I'd say DC's investment has more than paid off.

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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:And the same thing happened in downtown Phoenix where the warehouse district was razed to build Bank One (now Chase) Field and America West Arena (now Talking Stick Resort Arena). Totally revitalized the Phoenix downtown area. Unrecognizable today from the dangerous, drug-addled shithole it was 30 years ago.
Maybe the Coyotes should have stayed?
Well, that's debatable. They were playing in a basketball arena with horrible sight lines and limited view seating.
They'd have had to build another arena downtown that was built for hockey. The development out by Coyotes/Cardinals stadium is something to behold as well.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

AZGrizFan wrote:The development out by Coyotes/Cardinals stadium is something to behold as well.
Unfortunately the Coyotes fans don't agree.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:
I’m talking about the commercial development that popped up around GU. It was run down and now it’s thriving with new apartments, shops, bars, etc.
None of the commercial development that popped up around Nats Park was publicly funded. Why would it be?
Right, but the McCarthy Center was built with private money. Like I said, I’m neutral on the topic and get the ROI. But land development is just slightly outside the scope of limited government that so many on here champion.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: None of the commercial development that popped up around Nats Park was publicly funded. Why would it be?
Right, but the McCarthy Center was built with private money. Like I said, I’m neutral on the topic and get the ROI. But land development is just slightly outside the scope of limited government that so many on here champion.
AFAIK, the Gonzaga campus was already there. It's not like the city was afraid they'd move away if they didn't build a new arena for them. The school wanted a new arena, so they built one. The surrounding hoods benefited from this. I'm not sure why you are comparing this to trying to lure a company/team to your city.
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Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

Post by Ivytalk »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Ivytalk wrote: That’s true.

It’s also true that she could suck-start a 747. :nod:
IT, I just wanted you to know that this post did NOT go unnoticed. :kisswink: :kisswink:
Thank you! :mrgreen:
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