Hey Seattle and Portland.....

[Ivytalk]

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.

I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.

We built that, goddammit!

[CID1990]

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.

Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming.

Hell, that’s how I want to exit it


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[Winterborn]

Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming.

Hell, that’s how I want to exit it


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Not a bad way to enter Valhalla.

[Ibanez]

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.

I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc...

[Ibanez]

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.

I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.

I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc...

[UNI88]

Hell, that’s how I want to exit it

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Not a bad way to enter Valhalla.

Being waterboarded by terrorists?

[Winterborn]

I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.

I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc...

I know there is a common thread there if I could just put my finger on it.....

[Winterborn]

Not a bad way to enter Valhalla.

Being waterboarded by terrorists?

Buzzkill......

[89Hen]

Being waterboarded by terrorists?

Buzzkill......

Have to admit, I was thinking of tiger cages.

[GannonFan]

I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.

I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc...

Yup, I know Trip has thrown out that idea that he's wholly against the Great Man theory, but like most things with Trip, I doubt he's thought it through enough nor does he have a good enough grasp of history to see the holes in his argument. I don't think it has anything to do with being destined, but there are plenty of examples of individuals in history stepping up to shape an event or history, and in the absence of them doing it at that point in time then things would've turned out very differently.

[Ibanez]

I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc...

Yup, I know Trip has thrown out that idea that he's wholly against the Great Man theory, but like most things with Trip, I doubt he's thought it through enough nor does he have a good enough grasp of history to see the holes in his argument. I don't think it has anything to do with being destined, but there are plenty of examples of individuals in history stepping up to shape an event or history, and in the absence of them doing it at that point in time then things would've turned out very differently.

Exactly. The Great Man Theory has an element of the divine in it. We aren't talking about that. It's a theory. Let's look at who has changed the world, made impacts (good and bad), been influential, whatever, and see where they come from. What opportunities did they have or take advantage of. There's nothing divine there.

I'm not a complete moron, Trip.

[∞∞∞]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

[kalm]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

[GannonFan]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

Yup, the important nuance. Gotta get past the surface.

[CID1990]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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[Ibanez]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

So with those great people, built by society, who you do think is creating systems?

Hint: It's in my first post on this subject.

[Ibanez]

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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I've tried to read that book. I've tried to listen to that book. I just can't get through it. Jared Diamond is a dullard.


A book you may enjoy is 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New ... e_Columbus

The book presents recent research findings in different fields that suggest human populations in the Western Hemisphere—that is, the indigenous peoples of the Americas—were more numerous, had arrived earlier, were more sophisticated culturally, and controlled and shaped the natural landscape to a greater extent than scholars had previously thought.

[89Hen]

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

kalm and trip

[kalm]

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

kalm and trip

What about my post do you disagree with?

[Ivytalk]

No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.

kalm and trip

“I don’t care about heredity versus environment! All I care about is how much we can get for our pork bellies.”

[89Hen]

What about my post do you disagree with?

Nothing, but it sounded just like them. My God you are bore these days.

[CID1990]

The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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I've tried to read that book. I've tried to listen to that book. I just can't get through it. Jared Diamond is a dullard.


A book you may enjoy is 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New ... e_Columbus

The book presents recent research findings in different fields that suggest human populations in the Western Hemisphere—that is, the indigenous peoples of the Americas—were more numerous, had arrived earlier, were more sophisticated culturally, and controlled and shaped the natural landscape to a greater extent than scholars had previously thought.

In addition to being dull, he completely homogenizes humankind over its existence, sort of an acceptable treatise on “all lives matter”

I find his science questionable - like an effort to say that selection, environmental pressures, climate, competition, and proximity affect and shape all living things EXCEPT homo sapiens over the last 100,000 years

In fact, it isn’t questionable - its garbage


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[CitadelGrad]

You have no idea what I'm doing or not doing.

Oh, please enlighten us.

Why the fuck would I do that?

[CitadelGrad]

Not even close. Haven't sat in a cubicle in over 20 years. Haven't worked in a corporate setting for even longer. I rather like my job.

Executive Director of the Sons of the Confederacy?

I do what OL FU does, or what he used to do. I haven't communicated with him in a few years. Don't know what he's up to now.

[CitadelGrad]

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler moving to avoid rioters targeting his home

https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/portland- ... -building/