Coronavirus COVID-19

[∞∞∞]

My school district requires at least 9 different vaccinations prior to entering kindergarten - Tetanus, Diphtheria, Acellular Pertussis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Hepatitis B, and Varicella. Then by 7th grade they require another dose of tetanus, diphtheria, and the pertussis, and then for 12th grade they need the MCV vaccination. Seriously, if I inserted the COVID vaccine in there, what's the big deal, it's actually one of the easier vaccinations. Mandate the vaccine and move on.

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

Every generation in the 20th century had to be the first to take some sort of vaccine, or vaccines. Your grandparents did it, your parents did it, you may have even done it before Covid.

And rushing isn't a big deal with a large enough data set. Some vaccines are in development for decades because the dataset is too small. I believe the Covid vaccinations had the largest dataset in history (thanks to amazing volunteers) before their release. And with hundreds of millions now innoculated around the world, we have more than enough additional info to call it safe.

[Gil Dobie]

My school district requires at least 9 different vaccinations prior to entering kindergarten - Tetanus, Diphtheria, Acellular Pertussis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Hepatitis B, and Varicella. Then by 7th grade they require another dose of tetanus, diphtheria, and the pertussis, and then for 12th grade they need the MCV vaccination. Seriously, if I inserted the COVID vaccine in there, what's the big deal, it's actually one of the easier vaccinations. Mandate the vaccine and move on.

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

U of M Link
The vaccines for the novel coronavirus went through the same layers of review and testing as other vaccines. Due to the dire nature of the pandemic, certain barriers to development, related to funding and manufacturing, were removed.

To understand how this is possible, it is important to know how the vaccine development process typically works and how the COVID vaccine was created.

[GannonFan]

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

U of M Link
The vaccines for the novel coronavirus went through the same layers of review and testing as other vaccines. Due to the dire nature of the pandemic, certain barriers to development, related to funding and manufacturing, were removed.

To understand how this is possible, it is important to know how the vaccine development process typically works and how the COVID vaccine was created.

Heck, we ought to be damn proud as Americans that we were able to make the vaccines we did in as fast a time frame as we did. Our health care system is a mess, but no other country in the world could do what we did as fast as we did it in terms of getting a vaccine out for COVID. You ought to be proud as an American to get the vaccine shot - it's a patriotic moment. China's probably pissed off that we out-vaccined them on a virus they had a head start in. Take that comrade Houndy.

[GannonFan]

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

Every generation in the 20th century had to be the first to take some sort of vaccine, or vaccines. Your grandparents did it, your parents did it, you may have even done it before Covid.

And rushing isn't a big deal with a large enough data set. Some vaccines are in development for decades because the dataset is too small. I believe the Covid vaccinations had the largest dataset in history (thanks to amazing volunteers) before their release. And with hundreds of millions now innoculated around the world, we have more than enough additional info to call it safe.

The polio vaccine was given out to 30 million American children within a year and a half of its introduction.

[SeattleGriz]

Because natural immunity is superior and there is no need for a vaccine. Why would you take a vaccine if you didn't need it? Hell, for that matter, let's just drop antibody testing and simply mandate everyone gets one of everything when the government feels like it.

Do they have natural immunity opt-outs for all the other vaccines? Honestly don't know and if they do, great, then we can add that here too. Rather than getting the vaccine or the booster shot, you just need to have your antibodies tested at the same frequency. Happy with that?

Yes!

[Gil Dobie]

Every generation in the 20th century had to be the first to take some sort of vaccine, or vaccines. Your grandparents did it, your parents did it, you may have even done it before Covid.

And rushing isn't a big deal with a large enough data set. Some vaccines are in development for decades because the dataset is too small. I believe the Covid vaccinations had the largest dataset in history (thanks to amazing volunteers) before their release. And with hundreds of millions now innoculated around the world, we have more than enough additional info to call it safe.

The polio vaccine was given out to 30 million American children within a year and a half of its introduction.

We stood in line in the lunch room at school a couple times for shots and the sugar cube.

[SDHornet]

Are flu shots mandated? And if YOU’RE vaccinated, why do you care if I am?

Because I don't want to have to keep reacting to all of this crap. I don't want to wear masks anymore, I don't want to have debates over this anymore. Vaccines work, the evidence is overwhelming. The government should be working faster to determine boosters for everyone and they should be working faster to get the vaccine available for all kids under 12. And I care because I don't want rampant community spread that results in over-burdening the hospital system. We have tons of required vaccines to get into schools and to get into the military and to travel to and from certain countries. This is just adding one more vaccine. Like I said, if someone doesn't want it, no problem. Just be ready to be unable to enter a school, transportation, restaurants, stadiums, the military, and so on. I have no problem with someone making that choice.

You actually think masks and all these mandates (ie gubmint control) will ever go away regardless of what % of the population is vaxxed?

That's cute.

And good luck getting me to put this shit in my kid.

[SDHornet]

My school district requires at least 9 different vaccinations prior to entering kindergarten - Tetanus, Diphtheria, Acellular Pertussis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Hepatitis B, and Varicella. Then by 7th grade they require another dose of tetanus, diphtheria, and the pertussis, and then for 12th grade they need the MCV vaccination. Seriously, if I inserted the COVID vaccine in there, what's the big deal, it's actually one of the easier vaccinations. Mandate the vaccine and move on.

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

[SDHornet]

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

They didn't wait 30 years to go by before adding vaccines to the list of vaccines needed to enter school. Sure, they probably didn't wait just 8 months, but it was much closer to 8 months than 30 years. The vaccines work, we're not about to create a zombie apocalypse, mandate the vaccines and those who choose not to get it can adjust their lives to skip the things and venues that require it. Homeschooling is always an option. Not taking that trip to Fiji is always an option. Not eating in that fancy restaurant downtown is always an option. Not taking public transportation is always an option. Not enrolling in the military is always an option. Not going to a sporting event is always an option.

No one knows what the long term effects of the vaccine will be (if any). Sure as hell ain't going to just stick this in my kid because of 8 months of data.

[GannonFan]

Because I don't want to have to keep reacting to all of this crap. I don't want to wear masks anymore, I don't want to have debates over this anymore. Vaccines work, the evidence is overwhelming. The government should be working faster to determine boosters for everyone and they should be working faster to get the vaccine available for all kids under 12. And I care because I don't want rampant community spread that results in over-burdening the hospital system. We have tons of required vaccines to get into schools and to get into the military and to travel to and from certain countries. This is just adding one more vaccine. Like I said, if someone doesn't want it, no problem. Just be ready to be unable to enter a school, transportation, restaurants, stadiums, the military, and so on. I have no problem with someone making that choice.

You actually think masks and all these mandates (ie gubmint control) will ever go away regardless of what % of the population is vaxxed?

That's cute.

And good luck getting me to put this shit in my kid.

Mask mandates will go away, absolutely, We're almost there now and will be once we mandate vaccines in schools and businesses and in most places.

And sure, I have no problem with you deciding for your kid not to have them vaccinated. You're the parent and you get to make that decision for your child. Keep them at home, homeschool them, and keep them out of youth sports and other youth activities, and stay away from public spaces that require vaccinations. It's entirely your choice and you're welcome to take that option.

[GannonFan]

They didn't wait 30 years to go by before adding vaccines to the list of vaccines needed to enter school. Sure, they probably didn't wait just 8 months, but it was much closer to 8 months than 30 years. The vaccines work, we're not about to create a zombie apocalypse, mandate the vaccines and those who choose not to get it can adjust their lives to skip the things and venues that require it. Homeschooling is always an option. Not taking that trip to Fiji is always an option. Not eating in that fancy restaurant downtown is always an option. Not taking public transportation is always an option. Not enrolling in the military is always an option. Not going to a sporting event is always an option.

No one knows what the long term effects of the vaccine will be (if any). Sure as hell ain't going to just stick this in my kid because of 8 months of data.

So under your criteria, no vaccine will ever be suitable for use until an entire generation of people go through their full lives so that we can determine the long term effects? Thankfully, we didn't do that with polio so I was able to get the vaccine as a child 20 years later after the first generation got their shots. According to your logic we'd need to wait until folks like Gil Dobie grew old and died before we could feel good about the long term effects of the vaccine.

[SDHornet]

You actually think masks and all these mandates (ie gubmint control) will ever go away regardless of what % of the population is vaxxed?

That's cute.

And good luck getting me to put this shit in my kid.

Mask mandates will go away, absolutely, We're almost there now and will be once we mandate vaccines in schools and businesses and in most places.

And sure, I have no problem with you deciding for your kid not to have them vaccinated. You're the parent and you get to make that decision for your child. Keep them at home, homeschool them, and keep them out of youth sports and other youth activities, and stay away from public spaces that require vaccinations. It's entirely your choice and you're welcome to take that option.

The Oregon Gov just implemented a mask mandate that includes wearing them outside regardless of vax status (but science!). These aren't going away for a while.

[GannonFan]

Mask mandates will go away, absolutely, We're almost there now and will be once we mandate vaccines in schools and businesses and in most places.

And sure, I have no problem with you deciding for your kid not to have them vaccinated. You're the parent and you get to make that decision for your child. Keep them at home, homeschool them, and keep them out of youth sports and other youth activities, and stay away from public spaces that require vaccinations. It's entirely your choice and you're welcome to take that option.

The Oregon Gov just implemented a mask mandate that includes wearing them outside regardless of vax status (but science!). These aren't going away for a while.

Hey, some places are going to be nanny's about this. Yes, Oregon's mask mandate for most outdoor activities is an example of that. But it's also Oregon, no one takes seriously anything they do in Oregon. There are going to be outliers on either side of the spectrum.

[SDHornet]

No one knows what the long term effects of the vaccine will be (if any). Sure as hell ain't going to just stick this in my kid because of 8 months of data.

So under your criteria, no vaccine will ever be suitable for use until an entire generation of people go through their full lives so that we can determine the long term effects? Thankfully, we didn't do that with polio so I was able to get the vaccine as a child 20 years later after the first generation got their shots. According to your logic we'd need to wait until folks like Gil Dobie grew old and died before we could feel good about the long term effects of the vaccine.

Your trying to conflate this vaccine with others, but I'll play along. A whole generation? No. But in your example 20 years is sufficient to know if there may be some looming long term effects.

My kid is 4, 8 years to 12. Is that enough time for me to be comfortable to vax my kid? Maybe. We'll just have to see what the data will parse out in that time frame. If they come up with a vax that the gubmint says is "safe for kids" , yeah nah.

[SDHornet]

The Oregon Gov just implemented a mask mandate that includes wearing them outside regardless of vax status (but science!). These aren't going away for a while.

Hey, some places are going to be nanny's about this. Yes, Oregon's mask mandate for most outdoor activities is an example of that. But it's also Oregon, no one takes seriously anything they do in Oregon. There are going to be outliers on either side of the spectrum.

Move those goalposts Ganny.

[GannonFan]

I actually like the policy that Delta just came out with - don't want the vaccine? Sure, no problem, we don't want to mandate it and force you to get it. At the same time, you're also a much bigger actuarial risk for us as a company so we're going to charge you $200 a month extra on your health care to take that into account. Again, it's a choice and you get to make that choice individually for you and for your children under 18. Heck, I think they should make people get on a scale and do the same to the vastly obese folks. It's a choice to be incredibly out of shape, everyone's welcome to make that choice, but it'll cost ya.

[GannonFan]

So under your criteria, no vaccine will ever be suitable for use until an entire generation of people go through their full lives so that we can determine the long term effects? Thankfully, we didn't do that with polio so I was able to get the vaccine as a child 20 years later after the first generation got their shots. According to your logic we'd need to wait until folks like Gil Dobie grew old and died before we could feel good about the long term effects of the vaccine.

Your trying to conflate this vaccine with others, but I'll play along. A whole generation? No. But in your example 20 years is sufficient to know if there may be some looming long term effects.

My kid is 4, 8 years to 12. Is that enough time for me to be comfortable to vax my kid? Maybe. We'll just have to see what the data will parse out in that time frame. If they come up with a vax that the gubmint says is "safe for kids" , yeah nah.

So how much time does it take in your esteemed opinion then? 20 years is a yes, 8 months is a no. So what's the magic timeframe for you?

[SDHornet]

I actually like the policy that Delta just came out with - don't want the vaccine? Sure, no problem, we don't want to mandate it and force you to get it. At the same time, you're also a much bigger actuarial risk for us as a company so we're going to charge you $200 a month extra on your health care to take that into account. Again, it's a choice and you get to make that choice individually for you and for your children under 18. Heck, I think they should make people get on a scale and do the same to the vastly obese folks. It's a choice to be incredibly out of shape, everyone's welcome to make that choice, but it'll cost ya.

I don't have a problem with this approach either.

[SDHornet]

Your trying to conflate this vaccine with others, but I'll play along. A whole generation? No. But in your example 20 years is sufficient to know if there may be some looming long term effects.

My kid is 4, 8 years to 12. Is that enough time for me to be comfortable to vax my kid? Maybe. We'll just have to see what the data will parse out in that time frame. If they come up with a vax that the gubmint says is "safe for kids" , yeah nah.

So how much time does it take in your esteemed opinion then? 20 years is a yes, 8 months is a no. So what's the magic timeframe for you?

Depends on the data. A "clean run" of data over 8 years is a good start.

[GannonFan]

Hey, some places are going to be nanny's about this. Yes, Oregon's mask mandate for most outdoor activities is an example of that. But it's also Oregon, no one takes seriously anything they do in Oregon. There are going to be outliers on either side of the spectrum.

Move those goalposts Ganny.

I haven't moved anything. I've been consistent from the start. Go check my posts. I was advocating in April of 2020 that everything should be open and operating with the right precautions in place (masks, social distance, and hand sanatizing). And once the vaccines entered the fray, mandate those and go back to normal (no restrictions for the vaccinated). Still my goalposts today. And I'm not advocating a police state, no one's forced to get the vaccine. Make your own choice.

[∞∞∞]

I actually like the policy that Delta just came out with - don't want the vaccine? Sure, no problem, we don't want to mandate it and force you to get it. At the same time, you're also a much bigger actuarial risk for us as a company so we're going to charge you $200 a month extra on your health care to take that into account. Again, it's a choice and you get to make that choice individually for you and for your children under 18. Heck, I think they should make people get on a scale and do the same to the vastly obese folks. It's a choice to be incredibly out of shape, everyone's welcome to make that choice, but it'll cost ya.

My company mandated it. That said, only one of fifteen hasn't taken it. They never told us what the consequence is for not taking it though, just that we have to. Deadline is September 1 for the first shot, so we'll see if the holdout does it.

[GannonFan]

So how much time does it take in your esteemed opinion then? 20 years is a yes, 8 months is a no. So what's the magic timeframe for you?

Depends on the data. A "clean run" of data over 8 years is a good start.

How is you pulling a number out of thin air of 8 years (with the nebulous modifier of "clean run" - what does that even mean?) any better than a scientific community saying 8 months is good enough? How is yours any less arbitrary than their's?

[SDHornet]

Move those goalposts Ganny.

I haven't moved anything. I've been consistent from the start. Go check my posts. I was advocating in April of 2020 that everything should be open and operating with the right precautions in place (masks, social distance, and hand sanatizing). And once the vaccines entered the fray, mandate those and go back to normal (no restrictions for the vaccinated). Still my goalposts today. And I'm not advocating a police state, no one's forced to get the vaccine. Make your own choice.

Except the opposite is happening in society and you are still advocating for it. This was you from just a few posts ago, no?

And sure, I have no problem with you deciding for your kid not to have them vaccinated. You're the parent and you get to make that decision for your child. Keep them at home, homeschool them, and keep them out of youth sports and other youth activities, and stay away from public spaces that require vaccinations. It's entirely your choice and you're welcome to take that option.

[SDHornet]

Depends on the data. A "clean run" of data over 8 years is a good start.

How is you pulling a number out of thin air of 8 years (with the nebulous modifier of "clean run" - what does that even mean?) any better than a scientific community saying 8 months is good enough? How is yours any less arbitrary than their's?

Because it's my kids health and I can use whatever timeframe is needed to feel that the vax is safe. 8 years is based on the "safe for 12 and older" narrative on the current vax. Would be 6 years if my kid was 6. And yes my health is of lesser meaning/value than my kids'.

Get it yet?

[GannonFan]

I actually like the policy that Delta just came out with - don't want the vaccine? Sure, no problem, we don't want to mandate it and force you to get it. At the same time, you're also a much bigger actuarial risk for us as a company so we're going to charge you $200 a month extra on your health care to take that into account. Again, it's a choice and you get to make that choice individually for you and for your children under 18. Heck, I think they should make people get on a scale and do the same to the vastly obese folks. It's a choice to be incredibly out of shape, everyone's welcome to make that choice, but it'll cost ya.

My company mandated it. That said, only one of fifteen hasn't taken it. They never told us what the consequence is for not taking it though, just that we have to. Deadline is September 1 for the first shot, so we'll see if the holdout does it.

My company probably won't mandate it. It's hard enough finding new hires now at the plant operator level, I think they would have more problems filling those spots if they mandated it. There is a business decision to be made and I respect that. With that said, they're going to remove any and all restrictions on people who have been vaccinated and provide proof of that. For the others, they'll likely have to wear masks and get some kind of regular testing for the foreseeable future. I doubt they'll go with an additional fee on the health care for the unvaccinated, at least right away, but that's something I'm sure they'll add eventually, especially if it becomes that much more common to add a policy like that.