The Ukraine Crisis

[Ibanez]

Aren't most of those wars of attrition like Napoleonic and and WW2 defensive wars? They allow the climate, terrain and distance work against their enemies and then overwhelm with any citizen that can carry a gun (or ammo)?

US strategy is not one of attrition. Hasn’t been since WWII. We’ve always assumed a large technology advantage and smaller, better trained, better equipped forces.

Did I miss something in your post about the US? I thought we were talking about Mother Russia?

[AZGrizFan]

US strategy is not one of attrition. Hasn’t been since WWII. We’ve always assumed a large technology advantage and smaller, better trained, better equipped forces.

Did I miss something in your post about the US? I thought we were talking about Mother Russia?

We were. I’m differentiating between their strategy and ours. And the fact that those losses presented in that graphic aren’t necessarily “alarming” to Mother Russia.

[kalm]

[kalm]

[GannonFan]

Sure there were, there was no shortage of people, including Americans, who thought Hitler was a pretty effective leader. Some even went as far as saying he was a good leader. Do we not teach that part of history any longer?

[Ibanez]

Did I miss something in your post about the US? I thought we were talking about Mother Russia?

We were. I’m differentiating between their strategy and ours. And the fact that those losses presented in that graphic aren’t necessarily “alarming” to Mother Russia.

OOOH. Ok, I follow you.

[kalm]

Sure there were, there was no shortage of people, including Americans, who thought Hitler was a pretty effective leader. Some even went as far as saying he was a good leader. Do we not teach that part of history any longer?

Yes…which is why I posted it.

[AZGrizFan]

He IS savvy, from the standpoint of knowing that a weak, ineffective Biden administration was a prime time to pounce. what he probably DIDN’T account for was the reaction of the REST of the world (or the Ukrainian people, for that matter).

[SeattleGriz]

See if this guy is right.

https://turcopolier.com/what-is-really- ... more-12745

Some believe this indicates Putin’s troops are bogged down and making little progress. But I think there is an alternative explanation. First, Russia has not deployed its most sophisticated weaponry. It remains in place in Russia on the Ukrainian border but showing no signs as of this writing of being activated. Second, little attention is being paid to eastern Ukraine where the bulk of the Ukrainian Army is deployed. Jacob Dreizin offers some important insight on this:

You won’t hear this on CNN, but Putin’s Army of Darkness, in the most complex and ambitious ground maneuver operation since World War 2, following the Soviet “deep war” playbook, is also working on cutting off the Ukrainian army group in the Donbass from Kiev. This is by far the most capable (or only capable) large portion of the Ukrainian army. Yesterday, its main reserves of diesel fuel were destroyed from the air. It will soon be cut off and immobile.

Once that happens, the entire Donbass front collapses (they will no longer have a “front”), and BILLIONS of dollars in U.S.-funded or U.S.-supplied weaponry will be captured almost without a battle. (To be clear, it’s almost all U.S. funded or supplied—even most of the Soviet vintage stuff was bought and shipped in from Poland, Czechia, etc. by the CIA, “off the books” but well documented in videos of tank trains crossing the border into Ukraine, in 2015-2016.)

The Russians have finally entered Kharkov, Ukraine’s second largest city, very close to the Russian border. Previously, they had bypassed it the same way that America bypassed every town in southern Iraq to reach Baghdad in 2003. On Saturday night, they finally wasted all significant, organized resistance with a rain of thermobaric death in the outskirts. Today, they started to go in and mop up. Of course, it’s not a job for one day.

The Ukrainian army is falling back (mostly in organized fashion) throughout the Donbass. They have largely evacuated Mariupol, a very pro-Russian, major steelmaking and steel-shipping center (responsible for billions of dollars in exports) on the Sea of Azov. The sole garrison in Mariupol is now said to be the Azov regiment, a group of bona fide, tattooed Nazis—you know, your typical Ukrainian democracy guys, the ones the MSM doesn’t tell you about, and our State Department prefers to ignore. The kind of guys you must use to garrison a pro-Russian city that hates you.

The “real” army looks to be falling back to Dnepropetrovsk, about 60 miles west of Donetsk, if the Russians don’t cut them off—that’s now the big “if.” Either way, they’ll get hit badly from the air.

They are leaving behind lots of brand spanking new, British and American weaponry. I wish I had time to make a photo collage for you. It turns out, the stuff doesn’t work well. Among other things, you have to charge the battery on those Javelins or whatever. No charge, no fire. No one told them. I guess they had so many dumped on them, it was not realistic to plug them all into the wall, and sit there and wait. I can relate, I don’t even like waiting to charge one new smartphone

.

[Ibanez]

He IS savvy, from the standpoint of knowing that a weak, ineffective Biden administration was a prime time to pounce. what he probably DIDN’T account for was the reaction of the REST of the world (or the Ukrainian people, for that matter).

He get's partial credit because he underestimated the rest of the world ESPECIALLY the Ukrainians.

[Skjellyfetti]

It's escalating for sure. Putin isn't backing down. Does anyone NOT think they'll try to kill Zelensky at the "peace" talk today? Today's talk will go like this:

Russia - Surrender Ukraine, surrender yourself and we'll end hostilities.
Ukraine - Go fuck, yourself.


Nobody truly believes there will be any compromise, do they? Zelensky isn't going to give up 1 sq inch of Ukrainian soil and Russia isn't going to slink away in defeat.

lol at Zelenskyy (or Putin for that matter) being anywhere near the peace talks.

[AZGrizFan]

He IS savvy, from the standpoint of knowing that a weak, ineffective Biden administration was a prime time to pounce. what he probably DIDN’T account for was the reaction of the REST of the world (or the Ukrainian people, for that matter).

He get's partial credit because he underestimated the rest of the world ESPECIALLY the Ukrainians.

Very very partial.

[AZGrizFan]

Russian logic at its finest: We will continue to attack you until you agree to demilitarize. Makes perfect sense….

[GannonFan]

We are entering a very dangerous time here. EU is claiming it will send fighters, we and Germany are sending weapons, volunteers from NATO countries including the US are moving into Ukraine…

Something is very wrong with Putin and we need to be very careful how these actions get publicized. The guy literally used fantastical storytelling to concoct a justification for this invasion. We can help Ukraine but it needs to be much quieter. Putin really is unhinged and it wouldn’t take much for him to do something that would invoke the NATO charter. After that all bets are off


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It's escalating for sure. Putin isn't backing down. Does anyone NOT think they'll try to kill Zelensky at the "peace" talk today? Today's talk will go like this:

Russia - Surrender Ukraine, surrender yourself and we'll end hostilities.
Ukraine - Go fuck, yourself.


Nobody truly believes there will be any compromise, do they? Zelensky isn't going to give up 1 sq inch of Ukrainian soil and Russia isn't going to slink away in defeat.

That is the problem. How would Putin walk away from this without victory? I'm not sure he could survive a failure to subdue Ukraine. And if that's the case, what is he going to do to secure victory?

[AZGrizFan]

It's escalating for sure. Putin isn't backing down. Does anyone NOT think they'll try to kill Zelensky at the "peace" talk today? Today's talk will go like this:

Russia - Surrender Ukraine, surrender yourself and we'll end hostilities.
Ukraine - Go fuck, yourself.


Nobody truly believes there will be any compromise, do they? Zelensky isn't going to give up 1 sq inch of Ukrainian soil and Russia isn't going to slink away in defeat.

That is the problem. How would Putin walk away from this without victory? I'm not sure he could survive a failure to subdue Ukraine. And if that's the case, what is he going to do to secure victory?

The real question is: does someone within his inner circle take him out before it reaches HIS logical conclusion.

[Pwns]

Chicom's take a shot.

[∞∞∞]

I with AZ.

If Russia gets bogged down and Putin isn't taken out, his logical conclusion is a nuclear strike at Ukraine. I'm not sure how the international community responds if strikes are limited to Ukraine, but I think we're in a situation where one wrong move and this gets out of control.

[BDKJMU]

NY Times: This much media coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is racist, because Ukranians are white.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/nyt-journ ... ial-biases

“She followed up with an additional tweet that it was "a geopolitical fiction to separate [Europe] from Asia" so that an invasion can be "a dog whistle to tell us we should care because they are like us."


So, a lot like… “If I had a son he would look like Trayvon.”


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Yep. Why the NY Times is Fake News.

[BDKJMU]

Yeah - how’d that tough guy routine work out?


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The first impeachment was literally because of Trump abusing his power and withholding 400 million from Ukraine. He also tried to extort Zelensky, threatened to pull the US out of NATO, and has now praised Putin twice since the conflict started; the man is definitely a Russian asset, whether he understands it or not. I wonder how much the sanctions are going to hurt Trump too.

Anyway, Putin certainly united the West in no way I've seen in my lifetime. It's wishful thinking, but I hope the sanctions and Ukrainians put enough hurt that his Presidency falls. The ordinary people of Russia certainly deserve better.

Or maybe by next week we're rebuilding civilization.

You mean after Biden did extort Zelensky?

[BDKJMU]

Oh look, more deflection from Bidens failure in Ukraine.

The US lead the charge to remove Russia from SWIFT after other nations were hesitant. We've also lead the charge on other sanctions, continue to supply the Ukraine with monetary aid, we're supplying the EU with financial aid which they're turning around and sending to Ukraine as military aid, we're sending troops to protect the eastern flank of NATO, sent people to help at the border, and we're opening the US to refugees.

What else is there to do? Do you want to go to war with Russia?

The only people at fault here are Putin and his cronies.

The US should have been leading the charge months ago for a sanctions tripwire to automatically trigger removal from SWIFT and energy sanctions the moment Russian tanks rolled across the border, not getting it done 3 days AFTER the invasion started (too late to be a deterrence to invade). And still no energy sanctions. The other sanctions ate peanuts conpared to SWIFT and energy.

[Ibanez]

It's escalating for sure. Putin isn't backing down. Does anyone NOT think they'll try to kill Zelensky at the "peace" talk today? Today's talk will go like this:

Russia - Surrender Ukraine, surrender yourself and we'll end hostilities.
Ukraine - Go fuck, yourself.


Nobody truly believes there will be any compromise, do they? Zelensky isn't going to give up 1 sq inch of Ukrainian soil and Russia isn't going to slink away in defeat.

That is the problem. How would Putin walk away from this without victory? I'm not sure he could survive a failure to subdue Ukraine. And if that's the case, what is he going to do to secure victory?

Exactly. When you walk into "negotiations" with terms that are impossible to meet (de-nazification) you're setting the expectation that there isn't anything anyone can to appease you.


AND...when an historically Neutral country like Switzerland takes a side, you know you made a grievous mistake. And since Putin is bring the Nazi's into this...the Swiss were, essentially, neutral during WW2...a war with the OG Nazis.

[Ibanez]

That is the problem. How would Putin walk away from this without victory? I'm not sure he could survive a failure to subdue Ukraine. And if that's the case, what is he going to do to secure victory?

The real question is: does someone within his inner circle take him out before it reaches HIS logical conclusion.

Good question however, how many Putin loyalists will take his spot (or try to)?

[Ibanez]

The first impeachment was literally because of Trump abusing his power and withholding 400 million from Ukraine. He also tried to extort Zelensky, threatened to pull the US out of NATO, and has now praised Putin twice since the conflict started; the man is definitely a Russian asset, whether he understands it or not. I wonder how much the sanctions are going to hurt Trump too.

Anyway, Putin certainly united the West in no way I've seen in my lifetime. It's wishful thinking, but I hope the sanctions and Ukrainians put enough hurt that his Presidency falls. The ordinary people of Russia certainly deserve better.

Or maybe by next week we're rebuilding civilization.

You mean after Biden did extort Zelensky?

Trump did attempt to extort Zelensky. The transcript is pretty damn clear on that.

[∞∞∞]

The US lead the charge to remove Russia from SWIFT after other nations were hesitant. We've also lead the charge on other sanctions, continue to supply the Ukraine with monetary aid, we're supplying the EU with financial aid which they're turning around and sending to Ukraine as military aid, we're sending troops to protect the eastern flank of NATO, sent people to help at the border, and we're opening the US to refugees.

What else is there to do? Do you want to go to war with Russia?

The only people at fault here are Putin and his cronies.

The US should have been leading the charge months ago for a sanctions tripwire to automatically trigger removal from SWIFT and energy sanctions the moment Russian tanks rolled across the border, not getting it done 3 days AFTER the invasion started (too late to be a deterrence to invade). And still no energy sanctions. The other sanctions ate peanuts conpared to SWIFT and energy.

The invasion started in 2014. It was a failure of two Presidential policies (Obama and Trump). Presidencies don't happen in vacuums...Biden can't just come along and undo years of policy and bureaucracy. You can criticize him for not doing more, but let's not revise history.

You're also forgetting this (article from 2017):

President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved.

Diana Denman, a Republican delegate who supported arming U.S. allies in Ukraine, has told people that Trump aide J.D. Gordon said at the Republican Convention in 2016 that Trump directed him to support weakening that position in the official platform.

Ultimately, the softer position was adopted.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/56831079 ... ne-support

BTW, it's a policy still adopted by the official GOP platform...

[BDKJMU]

Serious question: when will someone just take Putin out? Preferably a Russian dissident, although Israeli commandos will do.

Had that thought last night. Why hasn't Seal Team 6 or MOSSAD been sent in a team to kill him. Seems we can "easily" do that with drones

Yeah, maybe Seal Team 6 could fly to Russia, parachute in, slip into the Kremlin undetected, take Putin out, slip out of the Kremlin, have vehicles to take them to get away helos, and not get caught to trigger a war vs Russia. Easy peasy.