The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

Wait. There wasn’t asymptomatic spread?

Seriously.

[SeattleGriz]

Seriously.

Really?

There was asymptomatic spread, but only at a rate of 2.3% according to WHO, that actually performed contact tracing.

If it was SO important, why did the US stop contact tracing?

Fauci is on record stating asymptomatic spread has never been a driver of a pandemic.

[kalm]

Seriously.

Really?

There was asymptomatic spread, but only at a rate of 2.3% according to WHO, that actually performed contact tracing.

If it was SO important, why did the US stop contact tracing?

Fauci is on record stating asymptomatic spread has never been a driver of a pandemic.

So according to you there was asymptomatic spread. Good.

Now, define asymptomatic.

[SeattleGriz]

Really?

There was asymptomatic spread, but only at a rate of 2.3% according to WHO, that actually performed contact tracing.

If it was SO important, why did the US stop contact tracing?

Fauci is on record stating asymptomatic spread has never been a driver of a pandemic.

So according to you there was asymptomatic spread. Good.

Now, define asymptomatic.

Yeah, 2.3% = the unvaccinated were killing grandma! It was a scare tactic used on the uninformed to vilify and pressure the unvaccinated. It worked and still is working on my father.

Asymptomatic means spreading without realizing you're sick.

Let me help you with another study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33315116/

A total of 54 relevant studies with 77 758 participants reporting household secondary transmission were identified.

Make sure you look at the data, where they derived secondary attack rates. These are of people living in the same house.

those with symptoms and those without. the variance turns out to be massive. symptomatic carriers had an SAR of 18%. asymptomatic carriers had an SAR of 0.7%.

[kalm]

So according to you there was asymptomatic spread. Good.

Now, define asymptomatic.

Yeah, 2.3% = the unvaccinated were killing grandma! It was a scare tactic used on the uninformed to vilify and pressure the unvaccinated. It worked and still is working on my father.

Asymptomatic means spreading without realizing you're sick.

Let me help you with another study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33315116/

A total of 54 relevant studies with 77 758 participants reporting household secondary transmission were identified.

Make sure you look at the data, where they derived secondary attack rates. These are of people living in the same house.

those with symptoms and those without. the variance turns out to be massive. symptomatic carriers had an SAR of 18%. asymptomatic carriers had an SAR of 0.7%.

So people transmit the flu, pre-symptom more frequently than when they have symptoms? Wow.

[SeattleGriz]

Yeah, 2.3% = the unvaccinated were killing grandma! It was a scare tactic used on the uninformed to vilify and pressure the unvaccinated. It worked and still is working on my father.

Asymptomatic means spreading without realizing you're sick.

Let me help you with another study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33315116/



Make sure you look at the data, where they derived secondary attack rates. These are of people living in the same house.

So people transmit the flu, pre-symptom more frequently than when they have symptoms? Wow.

If that's what you got from my statement and the linked study, you can't be helped bro.

[UNI88]

What would have happened if the West hadn't and weren't supporting Ukraine? Do you really believe that the Russians were going to give them their country back? That the Russians weren't going to take their farmland and exfiltrate their wealth?

They were in a lose-lose situation from the beginning and the West didn't put them there, Putin and the Russians did.

The Ukrainians decided to fight and asked for the West's help. They didn't want to negotiate because they knew that negotiation would just delay a Russian takeover and the eventual end of the Ukrainian nation and its people.

Russia and Ukraine didn't seem to have problems before the US pushed out the pro Russian leader, but don't take it from me. Take it from "fuck the EU" Victoria Nuland.

Why didn't Russia storm in all those years ago, before Ukraine had 8 years to build up their military with the help of NATO? Your claim makes no sense.

I love that I'm arguing Ukraine in the COVID thread with you and COVID in the Ukraine thread with Klam. Slow day apparently.

I noticed that too so I'm moving this where it belongs.

Proof that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people? And not from some right-wing echo chamber nutjob.

You keep trying to justify an unjustifiable invasion. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has a history of using force to try and get its way. Want to carry more of Putin's jizz and tell me how their meddling in Georgia is justified?

[SeattleGriz]

Russia and Ukraine didn't seem to have problems before the US pushed out the pro Russian leader, but don't take it from me. Take it from "fuck the EU" Victoria Nuland.

Why didn't Russia storm in all those years ago, before Ukraine had 8 years to build up their military with the help of NATO? Your claim makes no sense.

I love that I'm arguing Ukraine in the COVID thread with you and COVID in the Ukraine thread with Klam. Slow day apparently.

I noticed that too so I'm moving this where it belongs.

Proof that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people? And not from some right-wing echo chamber nutjob.

You keep trying to justify an unjustifiable invasion. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has a history of using force to try and get its way. Want to carry more of Putin's jizz and tell me how their meddling in Georgia is justified?

Nice Houndie style ad hominem.

To summarize Georgia, Russia pulled a US move. If the US was able to recognize Kosovo's de jure independence, then it was equally allowable for South Ossetian de jure independence to be recognized as well.

After the Georgian President invaded South Ossetia, Putin came in and protected those that had been subjected to genocide and atrocities.

There, described it like you have been describing everything.

On a separate note, have you been paying attention to the "protests" is Tbilisi? The government wants to pass a law that would require anyone who operates in the country to reveal if more than 20% of their funding come from outside Georgia. Very much like our FARA rules.

Hmmm, now why would anyone disagree with that, especially the US? We'd never have any NGO's over there messing around now would we?

[UNI88]

I noticed that too so I'm moving this where it belongs.

Proof that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people? And not from some right-wing echo chamber nutjob.

You keep trying to justify an unjustifiable invasion. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has a history of using force to try and get its way. Want to carry more of Putin's jizz and tell me how their meddling in Georgia is justified?

Nice Houndie style ad hominem.

To summarize Georgia, Russia pulled a US move. If the US was able to recognize Kosovo's de jure independence, then it was equally allowable for South Ossetian de jure independence to be recognized as well.

After the Georgian President invaded South Ossetia, Putin came in and protected those that had been subjected to genocide and atrocities.

There, described it like you have been describing everything.

On a separate note, have you been paying attention to the "protests" is Tbilisi? The government wants to pass a law that would require anyone who operates in the country to reveal if more than 20% of their funding come from outside Georgia. Very much like our FARA rules.

Hmmm, now why would anyone disagree with that, especially the US? We'd never have any NGO's over there messing around now would we?

Awesome. We can then apply that same logic to Ukraine and the West is justified in helping Ukraine to protect Ukrainians who have and will be subjected to atrocities and genocide by the Russians.

No proof from a legitimate source (not some right-wing nutjob echo chamber) that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people?

[SeattleGriz]

Nice Houndie style ad hominem.

To summarize Georgia, Russia pulled a US move. If the US was able to recognize Kosovo's de jure independence, then it was equally allowable for South Ossetian de jure independence to be recognized as well.

After the Georgian President invaded South Ossetia, Putin came in and protected those that had been subjected to genocide and atrocities.

There, described it like you have been describing everything.

On a separate note, have you been paying attention to the "protests" is Tbilisi? The government wants to pass a law that would require anyone who operates in the country to reveal if more than 20% of their funding come from outside Georgia. Very much like our FARA rules.

Hmmm, now why would anyone disagree with that, especially the US? We'd never have any NGO's over there messing around now would we?

Awesome. We can then apply that same logic to Ukraine and the West is justified in helping Ukraine to protect Ukrainians who have and will be subjected to atrocities and genocide by the Russians.

No proof from a legitimate source (not some right-wing nutjob echo chamber) that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people?

Can watch straight from Vicky "fuck the EU" Nuland's mouth. She said that the U.S. government had spent $5 billion promoting “democracy” in Ukraine since 1991. The money went toward supporting “senior officials in the Ukraine government…[members of] the business community as well as opposition civil society” who agree with U.S. goals.

You really think after "investing" 5 billion dollars, the US wouldn't help organize the overthrow, especially after the leader turned away from the EU/US and started looking at partnership with Russia?

My example of Tbilisi is a good indicator the US has probably done such things before. You really think the people of Georgia are against knowing who is trying to influence their country?

[kalm]

Awesome. We can then apply that same logic to Ukraine and the West is justified in helping Ukraine to protect Ukrainians who have and will be subjected to atrocities and genocide by the Russians.

No proof from a legitimate source (not some right-wing nutjob echo chamber) that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people?

Can watch straight from Vicky "fuck the EU" Nuland's mouth. She said that the U.S. government had spent $5 billion promoting “democracy” in Ukraine since 1991. The money went toward supporting “senior officials in the Ukraine government…[members of] the business community as well as opposition civil society” who agree with U.S. goals.

You really think after "investing" 5 billion dollars, the US wouldn't help organize the overthrow, especially after the leader turned away from the EU/US and started looking at partnership with Russia?

My example of Tbilisi is a good indicator the US has probably done such things before. You really think the people of Georgia are against knowing who is trying to influence their country?

Nyet.

[UNI88]

Awesome. We can then apply that same logic to Ukraine and the West is justified in helping Ukraine to protect Ukrainians who have and will be subjected to atrocities and genocide by the Russians.

No proof from a legitimate source (not some right-wing nutjob echo chamber) that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people?

Can watch straight from Vicky "fuck the EU" Nuland's mouth. She said that the U.S. government had spent $5 billion promoting “democracy” in Ukraine since 1991. The money went toward supporting “senior officials in the Ukraine government…[members of] the business community as well as opposition civil society” who agree with U.S. goals.

You really think after "investing" 5 billion dollars, the US wouldn't help organize the overthrow, especially after the leader turned away from the EU/US and started looking at partnership with Russia?

My example of Tbilisi is a good indicator the US has probably done such things before. You really think the people of Georgia are against knowing who is trying to influence their country?

I have no doubt that the US has tried to influence elections and a country's direction before. I think they're probably still doing it. I also think Russia has also done it and continues to do it. Russia complaining about US involvement in foreign elections is yugely hypocritical.

What is the difference between NATO involvement in Kosovo and Russian involvement in Ukraine? NATO did not invade Serbia and attempt to take Belgrade as part of it's mission to "protect" Kosovo. NATO has not occupied the country (NATO currently has approximately 3,700 personnel in Kosovo). Russia did invade Ukraine including sending a large force toward Kiev. If you believe that Russia isn't going to occupy whatever territory it controls then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Comparing Ukraine to Kosovo is comparing apples to oranges.

[Skjellyfetti]

Yes, a Ukrainian "tiger team" pulled off a naval operation without a functioning navy

well, they did sink the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet without a functioning navy. Or are you still in denial about that?

[houndawg]

800 miles of new NATO border with Finland are going to tie down a lot of Russian troops.

Not with the US blowing up other's infrastructure whenever they feel like it. You like how they now blame Ukraine? It's just like our politicians when they get caught and blame some low level office assistant for the screw up.

Non sequitur much?

[houndawg]

Yes, a Ukrainian "tiger team" pulled off a naval operation without a functioning navy

well, they did sink the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet without a functioning navy. Or are you still in denial about that?

It was the same Polish commandos that took out Russia's pipeline at the bottom of the sea.

[UNI88]

well, they did sink the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet without a functioning navy. Or are you still in denial about that?

It was the same Polish housewife that took out Russia's pipeline at the bottom of the sea.

FYP

[SeattleGriz]

Not with the US blowing up other's infrastructure whenever they feel like it. You like how they now blame Ukraine? It's just like our politicians when they get caught and blame some low level office assistant for the screw up.

Non sequitur much?

Says the Queen of non sequiturs.

[SDHornet]

Credit to Biden in this war. He cut off Europe's access to cheap Russain oil (now people have to buy it via middle man India and China or buy ours) and has positioned the US MIC as the prime weapons dealers to non-BRICS members all at the expense of a few hundred thousand Ukrainian and Russian casualties and Ukraine that will have been bombed/shelled back to the stone age when it's all said and done. We're still in the early stages of German de-insutrialization due to the much higher energy costs which no doubt the American economy will benefit from. Brillant and unscrupulous ploy.

....but hardly original - remember after 9/11 when Osama was hiding out in the mountains of Afghanistan and we seized Iraq's oil to teach them Saudi terrorists a lesson? We can still capitalism with the best of them when we put our minds to it.

Oh yeah, I remember...which is why I didn't buy into any of the propaganda this time around.

[SDHornet]

And if Fedir Melnyk in Luhansk is of Ukrainian descent and declares his house independent of the Luhansk People's Republic and is subsequently arrested by the Russians? Doesn't Ukraine have the same right to defend his human rights and sovereign right to self determination that the Russians have to defend ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk? Where does it end?

The whole defending Russian human rights or the right of Donetsk and Luhansk to self determination is a canard with more holes than Swiss cheese that is being used to attempt to justify an illegal invasion. There are processes that can be followed both nationally and internationally to do those things and Russia didn't follow them. Their invasion was illegal

Did Fedir comply with Article 51 of the UN Charter?

After recognizing the independence of the LPR/DNR Russia all three could claim a right of collective self-defense in analog to Article 51 of the UN Charter.

Don't be upset Putin pulled the same move the US did when they bombed the shit out of Serbia to "protect" Kosovo.

Hey, that was a defensive war. Settle down there homie.

[SDHornet]

The US military was never invited. They just went where they wanted in a sovereign nation and now control the oil fields. They estimate the US has stolen over $100B in oil from Syria. Do you know what they are doing to that country. To the innocent civilians?

900 soldiers have taken over and held the oil fields in Syria?

Syria started to boil over with the Arab Spring. It has and has had lots of competing interests: Assad, ISIS, the Kurds, Turkey, Russia, etc. I would guess that Russia is responsible for the deaths of more innocent civilians in Syria than the US.

With Russian assistance, Assad is and has been committing more atrocities against Syrians than Ukraine was against Ukrainians, ethnic Russian or not.

How much further can you stick your foot in your mouth with bad comparisons to try and justify an illegal invasion?

John McCain told us we are there supporting the "moderate" jihadists.

I'm old enough to remember when President Mean Tweets wanted to get us the fuck out of Syria and there was wailing and gnashing of teeth from the usual arbiters of perpetual war.

[SDHornet]

I'm not justifying the Ukraine situation. I'm saying Russia did what America does, but did it better.

First of all you've been justifying the Ukraine situation for this entire thread over the past year or so so that first statement is as false of a lie as you can make. Second, you have never been able to show an example of the US invading a sovereign nation, against their will, and then seizing and holding onto the land as if it was their own. Also while simultaneously ethnically cleansing those areas by either killing or removing the current inhabitants and replacing them with inhabitants aligned with Russia and their goals of territorial conquest. Still waiting and apparently I'll be waiting for a long time.

We don't seize their land, we take their resources via signed agreements with US Corps under puppet governments. Seizing land is so 19th century, get with the times yo.

[SDHornet]

We quit pulling this crap 100-300 years ago. The US knows not to blow up a pipeline.

I wonder how many flag waivers bought this narrative of some pro-Ukrainian bros renting a yacht from Poland, loading it with God knows how many tons of explosives needed to blow up a couple of pipelines, navigating one of the busiest/most surveilled strips of water in Europe undetected, and then diving 200+ meters underwater and successfully completing an op to destroy the pipelines. No one with a brain believes this story.

[SDHornet]

If Russia doesn't want its gas lines blown up then they shouldn't imperiously attack other countries without provocation. They spent the better part of two decades wining and dining Europe to get them attached to their natural gas as a captive market, and Putin's infatuation with rebuilding the Soviet Empire cost them that in about the span of a month. All that to get the hammer and sickle flag back.

Nice shifting morals. It's now okay for the US to not only attack Russia's pipeline, but to screw over Germany and do it on Denmark's land? Attack a nuclear powers infrastructure when they have done nothing to the US? Wow, you have wholeheartedly accepted the new "unvaxxed is going to kill grandma" narrative.

Also, Russia was asked for protection AFTER Ukraine intensified it's indiscriminate shelling of the Donbas.

Nah Europe's reaction to the pipeline op and their willingness to pay way more for energy just shows how badly they've been cucked.

[SDHornet]

I noticed that too so I'm moving this where it belongs.

Proof that the US pushed out the leader that the Russians forced upon the Ukrainian people? And not from some right-wing echo chamber nutjob.

You keep trying to justify an unjustifiable invasion. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has a history of using force to try and get its way. Want to carry more of Putin's jizz and tell me how their meddling in Georgia is justified?

Nice Houndie style ad hominem.

To summarize Georgia, Russia pulled a US move. If the US was able to recognize Kosovo's de jure independence, then it was equally allowable for South Ossetian de jure independence to be recognized as well.

After the Georgian President invaded South Ossetia, Putin came in and protected those that had been subjected to genocide and atrocities.

There, described it like you have been describing everything.

On a separate note, have you been paying attention to the "protests" is Tbilisi? The government wants to pass a law that would require anyone who operates in the country to reveal if more than 20% of their funding come from outside Georgia. Very much like our FARA rules.

Hmmm, now why would anyone disagree with that, especially the US? We'd never have any NGO's over there messing around now would we?

Saw that. Wouldn't be surprised of "random" color revolution popping up there like it did in Ukraine in 2014.

[SDHornet]

So anyone going to post odds on what event will be triggered to "officially" start WW 3? Russians down a drown off the coast of Crimea and the warmongers are calling for US planes to start shooting on Russian planes. Good times.