Fix the economy

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Re: Fix the economy

Post by youngterrier »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
youngterrier wrote:
the cost of Medicare and Medicaid will explode to $50 trillion by 2040
..................

source? No way in hell that's true. Did Ron Paul say that or something?
edited for clarification (helps when you put the right entitlement program down)

"The Revolution, a Manifesto" by Ron Paul

Medicare will be 12% of GDP by 2050 that's for sure

we will have 75% more on Medicare by 2030

In its 2008 annual report to Congress, the Medicare Board of Trustees reported that the program's hospital insurance trust fund could run out of money by 2017

the point is we can't afford it

if you want to be a source Nazi the Medicare #s are herehttp://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/93xx/doc9385/06-17- ... timony.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by youngterrier on Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by dbackjon »

We can't afford not to have Medicare, and still be a first world country. The America I want to live in takes care of those that can not - the old and the sick.

Medicare/SS needs better funding, higher retirement age, eliminate the cap on taxable income.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by txstatebobcat »

youngterrier wrote:What would you do?

Here's how we solve all our problems in my opinion

We can't afford entitlements in the next 50 years we'll eventually have to cut them (sad but true), we've spent something like $9 trillion on welfare in the last 46 years and the poverty level has stayed about the same we can cut that too. 40% of our budget (circa 2007 it may be different now) comes from income taxes, I say get rid of it, no FairTax necessary, our budget would be the same as it was in 1997 and would be based on the other ways we raise money not to mention the fact that most the spending will be out the door. We also need to reform or end the Federal Reserve system, get out of a war or 2, and open trade with countries we've embargoed (such as Iran). the only thing government needs to do in the economy is protect consumers. I know people like the ideas of the welfare state and entitlements, but they DON'T WORK.

Thought? Ideas? I know there's disagreements....
I don't necessarily disagree with you in that welfare hasn't worked, however I still think that there has to be some sort of help. Otherwise just add the "let's kick the poor people out of our country" and you have Mexico's plan of action.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by youngterrier »

if we're going to have a welfare state it has to be at the most local of levels, I'm fine with the idea of it and I'm Ok if individual states do it (or local governments) but it's unsustainable at the federal level
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by dbackjon »

youngterrier wrote:if we're going to have a welfare state it has to be at the most local of levels, I'm fine with the idea of it and I'm Ok if individual states do it (or local governments) but it's unsustainable at the federal level
It is ONLY sustainable at the local level. Otherwise, you have a race to the bottom among states.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by youngterrier »

dbackjon wrote:
youngterrier wrote:if we're going to have a welfare state it has to be at the most local of levels, I'm fine with the idea of it and I'm Ok if individual states do it (or local governments) but it's unsustainable at the federal level
It is ONLY sustainable at the local level. Otherwise, you have a race to the bottom among states.
my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by dbackjon »

youngterrier wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
It is ONLY sustainable at the local level. Otherwise, you have a race to the bottom among states.
my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
What you would end up with is people leaving one state for another (i.e. old people) for better benefits.

Also, since there are constitutionally no barriers to movement within the states, you would have situations where people work in the north, retire in the south and west, and burden THOSE states if they had to take care of them.

National plan is only way to do it - and is perfectly constitutional.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by Skjellyfetti »

dbackjon wrote:
youngterrier wrote: my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
What you would end up with is people leaving one state for another (i.e. old people) for better benefits.

Also, since there are constitutionally no barriers to movement within the states, you would have situations where people work in the north, retire in the south and west, and burden THOSE states if they had to take care of them.

National plan is only way to do it - and is perfectly constitutional.
Nice post! :nod:
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by youngterrier »

dbackjon wrote:
youngterrier wrote: my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
What you would end up with is people leaving one state for another (i.e. old people) for better benefits.

Also, since there are constitutionally no barriers to movement within the states, you would have situations where people work in the north, retire in the south and west, and burden THOSE states if they had to take care of them.

National plan is only way to do it - and is perfectly constitutional.
again, if they want to mess up their economy with a welfare state they are welcome to do so and I wouldn't want to live in a state that does so, but it is economically unsustainable on a state or federal level.

I counter your statement by saying that people will also go to the state with better economies to get a job, a well paying one too. A job in which they can save and invest for retirement

I don't get into the whole constitutional--welfare discussion...it doesn't need to be unconstitutional to be bad policy :ohno:
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by BDKJMU »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
youngterrier wrote: I know people like the ideas of the welfare state and entitlements, but they DON'T WORK.
That's a very broad brush that is true in some instances and wrong in others.

Medicare/medicaid is welfare. It works very well.
Medicare with massive fraud with close to 90 billion in future unfunded liabilities.... works well. :shock:
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by BDKJMU »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
youngterrier wrote:
the cost of Medicare and Medicaid will explode to $50 trillion by 2040
:|

source? No way in hell that's true.
Its actually worse- over 100 trillion by 2080
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/ba662.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by dbackjon »

BDKJMU wrote:
Skjellyfetti wrote:
That's a very broad brush that is true in some instances and wrong in others.

Medicare/medicaid is welfare. It works very well.
Medicare with massive fraud with close to 90 billion in future unfunded liabilities.... works well. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Can you support your massive fraud allegation?
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by BDKJMU »

Grizalltheway wrote:
youngterrier wrote: GDP of United States $14,264,600 million

GDP of Sweden $341,869 million

GDP of Denmark $204,060 million

next

social capitalism leads to socialism through the means of inflation and an increased welfare state

Free market> social capitalism> socialism
I won't argue with your last point, but both of those countries have a higher average standard of living than the US. Just sayin'.
Doesn't appear so according to this website:
Per capita GDP US: $46,400 (09' estimate in 09' dollars) http://flagcounter.com/factbook/us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Per capita GDP Denmark: $36,200 (09' estimate in 09' dollars) http://flagcounter.com/factbook/dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Per capita GDP Sweden: $36,8000 (09' estimate in 09' dollars) http://flagcounter.com/factbook/se" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by BDKJMU »

dbackjon wrote:
BDKJMU wrote:
Medicare with massive fraud with close to 90 billion in future unfunded liabilities.... works well. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Can you support your massive fraud allegation?
Are you kidding me? :shock:

Battling the Medicare fraud epidemic
http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive ... 70075.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Medicare Fraud Costs Taxpayers More Than $60 Billion Each Year
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/medicar ... d=10126555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Little progress seen against health insurance fraud

"...Fraud costs Medicare an estimated $60 billion a year, Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday.
Federal prosecutors charged 803 people with defrauding medical insurers in the fiscal year that ended in September, Justice Department records show. That's up about 2% since the government began deploying "strike forces" to target fraud in 2007. Nearly all of the charges involved attempts to cheat Medicare...."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... raud_N.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And those are just some of the articles from just the last 2 months from your left leaning "mainstream" media sources that you can't accuse of being to the right. I could go on and on and on. Can't believe you even asked. :roll:
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:
BDKJMU wrote:
Medicare with massive fraud with close to 90 billion in future unfunded liabilities.... works well. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Can you support your massive fraud allegation?
Obamacare. Expansion of Medicare.

Fraud, defined: deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right .

http://startthinkingright.wordpress.com ... microcosm/
First of all, what is the Cloward-Piven strategy:

From Discover The Networks:

First proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse. [...]

The key to sparking this rebellion would be to expose the inadequacy of the welfare state. Cloward-Piven’s early promoters cited radical organizer Saul Alinsky as their inspiration. “Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules,” Alinsky wrote in his 1972 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judaeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system’s failure to “live up” to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist “rule book” with a socialist one.

Newsmax offers a further description of Clowar-Piven, and raises the very real possibility that Obama not only studied the strategy, but in fact even studied under Richard Cloward:

Their strategy to create political, financial, and social chaos that would result in revolution blended Alinsky concepts with their more aggressive efforts at bringing about a change in U.S. government. To achieve their revolutionary change, Cloward and Piven sought to use a cadre of aggressive organizers assisted by friendly newsmedia to force a re-distribution of the nation’s wealth. It would be telling to know if Obama, during his years at Columbia, had occasion to meet Cloward and study the Cloward-Piven Strategy.

On my own view, Obama has a “win we win, lose we win” strategy. To wit, the Obama administration and the Democrat Party are pursuing incredibly risky policies across the board. If the country and the economy somehow manages to survive these measures (which I would compare to a man surviving a poisoning), Obama and the Democrats will claim victory. If, on the other hand, the entire national system collapses due to these shockingly terrible policies, the liberals believe that a terrified, hungry public will turn to the government for help – and allow the statists to restructure the nation into a completely socialist system.

The Obama administration, on my view, consists of a collective of fiscal sociopaths. They don’t even care about the harm that they are doing, as long as they accomplish their self-serving objective of statism, in which they ultimately wield the levers of totalitarian power.

Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, said that you never want a serious crisis to go to waste. The very real question is how far these people are willing to go to milk a crisis to impose their agenda; and how willing they would be to create a crisis to finish the job.

Now armed with the above information about Cloward-Piven, and the above thesis that Obama and the Democrats are actually employing it, let us consider the Democrats’ and Obama’s attempt to take over the health care system.

Far too many Democrats want a socialist single-payer system, and liberals like Democrat Representative Anthony Weiner think the current Senate Democrat proposal is just the ticket to take us there:

New York Rep. Anthony Weiner, an outspoken backer of the public option, hailed the expansion of Medicare as an “unvarnished” triumph for Democrats, like himself, who have been pushing for a single-payer government-run health care system. “Never mind the camel’s nose; we’ve got his head and his neck in the tent.”

The generally left-leaning Washington Post agrees with Rep. Weiner, saying that the

last-minute introduction of this idea within the broader context of health reform raises numerous questions — not least of which is whether this proposal is a far more dramatic step toward a single-payer system than lawmakers on either side realize. [...]

The irony of this late-breaking Medicare proposal is that it could be a bigger step toward a single-payer system than the milquetoast public option plans rejected by Senate moderates as too disruptive of the private market.

It is amazing that when the people overwhelmingly rejected the public option, Democrats responded by giving them the public option on steroids.
Next.

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Re: Fix the economy

Post by SeattleGriz »

Grizalltheway wrote:
I won't argue with your last point, but both of those countries have a higher average standard of living than the US. Just sayin'.
Something someone else pointed out to me, is that over the years, we as Americans have had to spend a huge amount on our military, while European countries knew we would come and save their bacon. This has allowed them to create such entitlement heavy countries.

Not saying it is the whole picture, but not having to spend very much on military sure helps your bottom line.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by kalm »

travelinman67 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
Can you support your massive fraud allegation?
Obamacare. Expansion of Medicare.

Fraud, defined: deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right .

http://startthinkingright.wordpress.com ... microcosm/
First of all, what is the Cloward-Piven strategy:

From Discover The Networks:

First proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse. [...]

The key to sparking this rebellion would be to expose the inadequacy of the welfare state. Cloward-Piven’s early promoters cited radical organizer Saul Alinsky as their inspiration. “Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules,” Alinsky wrote in his 1972 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judaeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system’s failure to “live up” to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist “rule book” with a socialist one.

Newsmax offers a further description of Clowar-Piven, and raises the very real possibility that Obama not only studied the strategy, but in fact even studied under Richard Cloward:

Their strategy to create political, financial, and social chaos that would result in revolution blended Alinsky concepts with their more aggressive efforts at bringing about a change in U.S. government. To achieve their revolutionary change, Cloward and Piven sought to use a cadre of aggressive organizers assisted by friendly newsmedia to force a re-distribution of the nation’s wealth. It would be telling to know if Obama, during his years at Columbia, had occasion to meet Cloward and study the Cloward-Piven Strategy.

On my own view, Obama has a “win we win, lose we win” strategy. To wit, the Obama administration and the Democrat Party are pursuing incredibly risky policies across the board. If the country and the economy somehow manages to survive these measures (which I would compare to a man surviving a poisoning), Obama and the Democrats will claim victory. If, on the other hand, the entire national system collapses due to these shockingly terrible policies, the liberals believe that a terrified, hungry public will turn to the government for help – and allow the statists to restructure the nation into a completely socialist system.

The Obama administration, on my view, consists of a collective of fiscal sociopaths. They don’t even care about the harm that they are doing, as long as they accomplish their self-serving objective of statism, in which they ultimately wield the levers of totalitarian power.

Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, said that you never want a serious crisis to go to waste. The very real question is how far these people are willing to go to milk a crisis to impose their agenda; and how willing they would be to create a crisis to finish the job.

Now armed with the above information about Cloward-Piven, and the above thesis that Obama and the Democrats are actually employing it, let us consider the Democrats’ and Obama’s attempt to take over the health care system.

Far too many Democrats want a socialist single-payer system, and liberals like Democrat Representative Anthony Weiner think the current Senate Democrat proposal is just the ticket to take us there:

New York Rep. Anthony Weiner, an outspoken backer of the public option, hailed the expansion of Medicare as an “unvarnished” triumph for Democrats, like himself, who have been pushing for a single-payer government-run health care system. “Never mind the camel’s nose; we’ve got his head and his neck in the tent.”

The generally left-leaning Washington Post agrees with Rep. Weiner, saying that the

last-minute introduction of this idea within the broader context of health reform raises numerous questions — not least of which is whether this proposal is a far more dramatic step toward a single-payer system than lawmakers on either side realize. [...]

The irony of this late-breaking Medicare proposal is that it could be a bigger step toward a single-payer system than the milquetoast public option plans rejected by Senate moderates as too disruptive of the private market.

It is amazing that when the people overwhelmingly rejected the public option, Democrats responded by giving them the public option on steroids.
Next.

:coffee:
You can make the exact same argument for Grover Norquist's idea of shrinking government to the point where it's small enough to be drowned in a bathtub.

But kudo's for the double tap of a Saul Alinksy and Newsmax reference in the same article.
:thumb:

None of which has anything to do with Dback's request to document the fraud numbers. :coffee:
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by BDKJMU »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
I won't argue with your last point, but both of those countries have a higher average standard of living than the US. Just sayin'.
Something someone else pointed out to me, is that over the years, we as Americans have had to spend a huge amount on our military, while European countries knew we would come and save their bacon. This has allowed them to create such entitlement heavy countries.

Not saying it is the whole picture, but not having to spend very much on military sure helps your bottom line.
And Seattle, as I pointed out in my above post, those 2 countries, Denmark and Sweden, only have a per capita GDP that is about 3/4 of that of the US.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
Something someone else pointed out to me, is that over the years, we as Americans have had to spend a huge amount on our military, while European countries knew we would come and save their bacon. This has allowed them to create such entitlement heavy countries.

Not saying it is the whole picture, but not having to spend very much on military sure helps your bottom line.
And Seattle, as I pointed out in my above post, those 2 countries, Denmark and Sweden, only have a per capita GDP that is about 3/4 of that of the US.
So exactly what is the size limit for a country to use a single payer healthcare system, absent of for-profit insurance companies, that reduces costs with at least equal to if not better outcomes than ours?

SeaGriz's excellent point notwithstanding.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by CID1990 »

dbackjon wrote:
youngterrier wrote: my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
What you would end up with is people leaving one state for another (i.e. old people) for better benefits.

Also, since there are constitutionally no barriers to movement within the states, you would have situations where people work in the north, retire in the south and west, and burden THOSE states if they had to take care of them.

National plan is only way to do it - and is perfectly constitutional.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by native »

dbackjon wrote:
youngterrier wrote: my thoughts exactly but if I state want's to mess itself up (and it's not the state I live in) they are constitutionally welcome to do so
What you would end up with is people leaving one state for another (i.e. old people) for better benefits.

Also, since there are constitutionally no barriers to movement within the states, you would have situations where people work in the north, retire in the south and west, and burden THOSE states if they had to take care of them.

National plan is only way to do it - and is perfectly constitutional.
That'll teach the sonsabitches.
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Re: Fix the economy

Post by native »

dbackjon wrote: National plan is only way to do it if you are a fvcking cmmunist.
FIFY, Jon. :thumb: :kisswink:

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