Bankruptcy off the table for GM

[HI54UNI]

Bankruptcy Still Off Table for GM
Stance Complicates Appeals to Congress That Auto Maker Is Running Out of Cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122710695099540967.html

I think this sums it up:

"The companies themselves, meanwhile, are showing little interest in the aggressive changes that critics insist are needed to reverse the industry's long-term decline."

If they aren't willing to change why should we help them?

[Appaholic]

Bankruptcy Still Off Table for GM
Stance Complicates Appeals to Congress That Auto Maker Is Running Out of Cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122710695099540967.html

I think this sums it up:

"The companies themselves, meanwhile, are showing little interest in the aggressive changes that critics insist are needed to reverse the industry's long-term decline."

If they aren't willing to change why should we help them?

Because they are entitled to it.....just as their workers are entitled to their $73/hr w benes job....can't you understand that Americans making $15-28/hr HAVE to help GM mamnagement and workers maintian their lifestyle....it's the American way......

[citdog]

Bankruptcy Still Off Table for GM
Stance Complicates Appeals to Congress That Auto Maker Is Running Out of Cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122710695099540967.html

I think this sums it up:

"The companies themselves, meanwhile, are showing little interest in the aggressive changes that critics insist are needed to reverse the industry's long-term decline."

If they aren't willing to change why should we help them?

HOW CAN YOU BE AGGRESSIVE WHEN YOUR PROFITS ARE SALTED AWAY BY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T WORKED FOR YOU FOR 30 YEARS........HOW CAN YOU COMPETE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SETS YOU UP TO FAIL BY NOT MIRRORING THE TRADE PRACTICES OF THE "SLANT EYED RICE EATERS" OR "THE MASTER RACE" TOWARDS OUR GOODS.........WHY DOES A PONTIAC G6 COST 45K IN JAPAN AND GERMANY AND THE CAMRY SELLS FOR ONLY 1200 MORE THAN THE G6 DOES HERE.......IF THAT CAMRY WAS 45K AND THE G6 21K WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD SELL MORE?

YOU SCHLEPROCKS CANNOT SEPERATE THE CORPORATIONS FROM THE LOCAL DEALERS........WHO DOES MORE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY THAN YOUR LOCAL CAR DEALERSHIP? WHEN YOUR HEAD FOOTBALL COACH NEEDS A CAR FOR RECRUITING... WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR SCHOOL NEEDS A CONVERTIBLE FOR YOUR HOMECOMING PARADE.......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR CAUSE, TITTIE CANCER, NUT CANCER, MD, ALS, HAS A 10K AND NEED SPONSORS .......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOU ARE 10K UPSIDE DOWN IN YOUR VEHICLE WHO DO YOU COME TO? LET ME AND PEOPLE LIKE ME GO UNDER AND WHERE WILL YOU GO?

[Appaholic]

Bankruptcy Still Off Table for GM
Stance Complicates Appeals to Congress That Auto Maker Is Running Out of Cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122710695099540967.html

I think this sums it up:

"The companies themselves, meanwhile, are showing little interest in the aggressive changes that critics insist are needed to reverse the industry's long-term decline."

If they aren't willing to change why should we help them?

HOW CAN YOU BE AGGRESSIVE WHEN YOUR PROFITS ARE SALTED AWAY BY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T WORKED FOR YOU FOR 30 YEARS........HOW CAN YOU COMPETE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SETS YOU UP TO FAIL BY NOT MIRRORING THE TRADE PRACTICES OF THE "SLANT EYED RICE EATERS" OR "THE MASTER RACE" TOWARDS OUR GOODS.........

Sounds like the auto execs should have spent more money on their lobbyists and contract negotiators......

[HI54UNI]

Bankruptcy Still Off Table for GM
Stance Complicates Appeals to Congress That Auto Maker Is Running Out of Cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122710695099540967.html

I think this sums it up:

"The companies themselves, meanwhile, are showing little interest in the aggressive changes that critics insist are needed to reverse the industry's long-term decline."

If they aren't willing to change why should we help them?

HOW CAN YOU BE AGGRESSIVE WHEN YOUR PROFITS ARE SALTED AWAY BY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T WORKED FOR YOU FOR 30 YEARS........HOW CAN YOU COMPETE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SETS YOU UP TO FAIL BY NOT MIRRORING THE TRADE PRACTICES OF THE "SLANT EYED RICE EATERS" OR "THE MASTER RACE" TOWARDS OUR GOODS.........WHY DOES A PONTIAC G6 COST 45K IN JAPAN AND GERMANY AND THE CAMRY SELLS FOR ONLY 1200 MORE THAN THE G6 DOES HERE.......IF THAT CAMRY WAS 45K AND THE G6 21K WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD SELL MORE?

YOU SCHLEPROCKS CANNOT SEPERATE THE CORPORATIONS FROM THE LOCAL DEALERS........WHO DOES MORE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY THAN YOUR LOCAL CAR DEALERSHIP? WHEN YOUR HEAD FOOTBALL COACH NEEDS A CAR FOR RECRUITING... WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR SCHOOL NEEDS A CONVERTIBLE FOR YOUR HOMECOMING PARADE.......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR CAUSE, TITTIE CANCER, NUT CANCER, MD, ALS, HAS A 10K AND NEED SPONSORS .......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOU ARE 10K UPSIDE DOWN IN YOUR VEHICLE WHO DO YOU COME TO? LET ME AND PEOPLE LIKE ME GO UNDER AND WHERE WILL YOU GO?

I feel sorry for the dealers. Unfortunately they are caught in the middle of this. I want to buy a new truck but I'm not going to until I know what is going to happen. I don't want to get screwed out of a warranty when they go bankrupt in January. Management and the unions are the ones that share the majority of the blame and changes need to be made to fix the problems. Throwing more money at it just delays the inevitable.

[Appaholic]

YOU SCHLEPROCKS CANNOT SEPERATE THE CORPORATIONS FROM THE LOCAL DEALERS........WHO DOES MORE FOR YOUR COMMUNITY THAN YOUR LOCAL CAR DEALERSHIP? WHEN YOUR HEAD FOOTBALL COACH NEEDS A CAR FOR RECRUITING... WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR SCHOOL NEEDS A CONVERTIBLE FOR YOUR HOMECOMING PARADE.......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOUR CAUSE, TITTIE CANCER, NUT CANCER, MD, ALS, HAS A 10K AND NEED SPONSORS .......WHO DO YOU COME TO? WHEN YOU ARE 10K UPSIDE DOWN IN YOUR VEHICLE WHO DO YOU COME TO? LET ME AND PEOPLE LIKE ME GO UNDER AND WHERE WILL YOU GO?

Looks like somebody watched NBC Nightly News last night.......It does suck for the dealers which is why they should have demanded more from their Auto Execs and Workers..........FWIW, calling your potential Sugar Daddy's & Pimps "Schleprocks" ain't helping your cause much....better start taking some Japanese lessons...

[lifesapuntreturn]

The auto manufacturers in this country have always called the shots with little if any input from the dealers. The large, high volume dealers have some sway with Detroit but not much. The mid-size and small dealers have none.

Remember the financing incentive programs born in the early '80's by GMAC - 0.9%, 1.9%, 2.9%. Those programs were rammed down dealers throats by GM and their dealers mostly had no choice but to accept them because GMAC floored (financed) their new car inventories so they did what GMAC said to do. Dealers couldn't make any money off the financing spread as they usually did because once they "voluntarily" signed up for the program, virtually every car they financed went thru GMAC because local banks couldn't offer those kinds of rates. Ford/Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler/Chrysler Credit had no choice but to follow along and offer their own similar programs in order to sell cars. They had to clear inventory off their lots and they did so but they didn't make any money at it. Those dealers who had profitable parts and service departments survived; those who did not failed and either were sold to some new guy or they just closed their doors and liquidated their inventory.

Ford dealers who have been around a while will also tell you that they couldn't get enough Ford Taurus' and Mercury Sables on their lots back in the '80's. They both sold like crazy and dealers couldn't get enough of them from the factory unless they agreed to also take more pickups and panel vans and Escorts, etc. Ford was building too many pickups and not enough of the Taurus and Sable models but they didn't care, by God, their dealers were going to take what Ford decided to build and that was the way it was. Selling pickups has never been a problem for Ford but when people want a Taurus and not a pickup, that's a problem. Ford didn't want to hear it.

Then there was Chrysler. They were belly up in the early 80's (maybe 1979?) and the federal government bailed them out. A big part of that bailout was the federal government buying all Dodge, Chrysler and Plymouth models for years. That's why you saw the "K car" models with government plates on them for years and why the military drove Dodge pickups for years. Lee Iacocca did countless tv commercials telling us that he was turning Chrysler around and improving the quality of their products and we should buy American and etc. Chrysler should have been allowed to fail nearly 30 years ago.

Of course the labor contracts have been bleeding the Big 3 to death for years. It is no surprise to many observers, including this one, that the Big 3 are in the shape they are in. You cannot build and sell vehicles at a loss of anywhere from $700 to $1400 per vehicle and expect to survive long term. That is pretty easy to understand but the unions didn't want to hear it so here we are, with the Big 3 on the verge of collapse.

The Little 3 are going to have to merge into one nameplate, something like USA Motors, and reorganize dramatically if they want to survive. Otherwise, get used to seeing a lot more Toyotas and Hondas on the road.

[Appaholic]

Even Auto Workers don't think we should bail out the auto industry......

"Many people in the diner know someone working in the car industry. They are certainly in car country -- there's an engine factory down the road, and they live between Ohio's major plants and the Detroit home of the industry.

You don't have to go far in any direction to find a threatened auto plant. But the diners and staff do not back a proposed $25 billion bailout.

The car industry in their neighborhood is doing well --"

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/ho ... index.html

[Col Hogan]

Well, G.M. is really biting the bullet...they are getting rid of two private jets...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008 ... -useconomy

[houndawg]

Of course the labor contracts have been bleeding the Big 3 to death for years. It is no surprise to many observers, including this one, that the Big 3 are in the shape they are in. You cannot build and sell vehicles at a loss of anywhere from $700 to $1400 per vehicle and expect to survive long term. That is pretty easy to understand but the unions didn't want to hear it so here we are, with the Big 3 on the verge of collapse.

Yeah, ever since management lost 50% of their market share. The Big 3 desperately need godd leadership. They need to:

Reduce overhead. Lay off two managers for each assembly line worker, starting at the very top where the worst problems are.

[houndawg]

Well, G.M. is really biting the bullet...they are getting rid of two private jets...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008 ... -useconomy

Two private jets! They aren't dicking around, this is serious business.

[lifesapuntreturn]

Of course the labor contracts have been bleeding the Big 3 to death for years. It is no surprise to many observers, including this one, that the Big 3 are in the shape they are in. You cannot build and sell vehicles at a loss of anywhere from $700 to $1400 per vehicle and expect to survive long term. That is pretty easy to understand but the unions didn't want to hear it so here we are, with the Big 3 on the verge of collapse.

Yeah, ever since management lost 50% of their market share. The Big 3 desperately need godd leadership. They need to:

Reduce overhead. Lay off two managers for each assembly line worker, starting at the very top where the worst problems are.

Management is a symptom, not the root, of the problem. Their biggest mistake has been agreeing to these give away union contracts all these years.

If you understood business, and how the union contracts over the years have bled these companies to death, you'd understand why things are the way they are today. We'll see if you're laughing when these companies have massive layoffs because of the massive losses caused by union contracts, including massive legacy costs.

It's obvious to anyone taking an honest, objective look at the situation. The unions now trying to blame "management" for the problem isn't going to fly anywhere outside of union halls. All you have to do is look at the non-union auto manufacturers in the south, who are profitable and have been for years, to understand what's caused this problem. Spinning this won't change the facts. It's reality-check time.

[D1B]

Yeah, ever since management lost 50% of their market share. The Big 3 desperately need godd leadership. They need to:

Reduce overhead. Lay off two managers for each assembly line worker, starting at the very top where the worst problems are.

Management is a symptom, not the root, of the problem. Their biggest mistake has been agreeing to these give away union contracts all these years.

If you understood business, and how the union contracts over the years have bled these companies to death, you'd understand why things are the way they are today. We'll see if you're laughing when these companies have massive layoffs because of the massive losses caused by union contracts, including massive legacy costs.

It's obvious to anyone taking an honest, objective look at the situation. The unions now trying to blame "management" for the problem isn't going to fly anywhere outside of union halls. All you have to do is look at the non-union auto manufacturers in the south, who are profitable and have been for years, to understand what's caused this problem. Spinning this won't change the facts. It's reality-check time.

You make some decent points, however, ultimately it's management's fault. They agreed to the contracts.

[Appaholic]

Management is a symptom, not the root, of the problem. Their biggest mistake has been agreeing to these give away union contracts all these years.

If you understood business, and how the union contracts over the years have bled these companies to death, you'd understand why things are the way they are today. We'll see if you're laughing when these companies have massive layoffs because of the massive losses caused by union contracts, including massive legacy costs.

It's obvious to anyone taking an honest, objective look at the situation. The unions now trying to blame "management" for the problem isn't going to fly anywhere outside of union halls. All you have to do is look at the non-union auto manufacturers in the south, who are profitable and have been for years, to understand what's caused this problem. Spinning this won't change the facts. It's reality-check time.

You make some decent points, however, ultimately it's management's fault. They agreed to the contracts.

Correct....best course of action = Chapter 11 > void union contracts > shitcan management that signed crappy contracts > restructure...

[lifesapuntreturn]

Yes, management signed the contracts. But, what you seem to be overlooking is that unions insisted on those contracts after lengthy negotiations and not only threatened to strike but actually did so, more than once, when they did not get what they wanted.

In addition, as I've said before, this situation with the union contracts has been building for 30 years. It is not something that just happened with the last contract or two the past 5-10 years. It is a cumulative effect over the past few decades. Firing the current management over that issue would only be window dressing. You can't go back 30 years and fire Roger Smith, the CEO of GM back in the early 80's, for instance, but he is just as guilty of participating in this disaster as the current CEO's of the Big 3. By the same token, you can't go back and fire the union heads who insisted on these business busting contracts 30 years ago and since.

The point is, firing the current CEO's just for the sake of firing them isn't the solution because they are not solely the problem. They are the one's left standing when the music stopped playing, thus they are in this mess. That having been said, firing all 3 of the Big 3 CEO's will likely end up happening to meet the political demands of the bailout. The American people want heads on platters in return for this entire bailout mess and you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be politicians heads that end up on those platters. It will the CEO's heads of the companies that want the bailouts, unless those companies happen to be banks or insurance companies. They are and will continue to get a free pass even though they are at the root of this problem, as I've said before on another thread.
JMHO

[Appaholic]

Yes, management signed the contracts. But, what you seem to be overlooking is that unions insisted on those contracts after lengthy negotiations and not only threatened to strike but actually did so, more than once, when they did not get what they wanted.

In addition, as I've said before, this situation with the union contracts has been building for 30 years. It is not something that just happened with the last contract or two the past 5-10 years. It is a cumulative effect over the past few decades. Firing the current management over that issue would only be window dressing. You can't go back 30 years and fire Roger Smith, the CEO of GM back in the early 80's, for instance, but he is just as guilty of participating in this disaster as the current CEO's of the Big 3. By the same token, you can't go back and fire the union heads who insisted on these business busting contracts 30 years ago and since.

The point is, firing the current CEO's just for the sake of firing them isn't the solution because they are not solely the problem. They are the one's left standing when the music stopped playing, thus they are in this mess. That having been said, firing all 3 of the Big 3 CEO's will likely end up happening to meet the political demands of the bailout. The American people want heads on platters in return for this entire bailout mess and you can bet your bottom dollar it won't be politicians heads that end up on those platters. It will the CEO's heads of the companies that want the bailouts, unless those companies happen to be banks or insurance companies. They are and will continue to get a free pass even though they are at the root of this problem, as I've said before on another thread.
JMHO

I totally agree with eveything you've stated....I was speaking more on what you noted about the American public demanding some heads on a platter......not necessarily fair for the current management team, but then again, it's not necessarily fair for the American public and the current managers, even when fired, are going to come out of this situation better off financially than the avg taxpayer.....

[D1B]

Yes, management signed the contracts. But, what you seem to be overlooking is that unions insisted on those contracts after lengthy negotiations and not only threatened to strike but actually did so, more than once, when they did not get what they wanted.

Agree. The big three were already well into the process of major restructuring with the hammer dropped. UAW gave up billions in pay and benefits to help out, then gas prices exploded and the financial crisis hit. No home equity, no automobile.

Both Mgt. and Unions are responsible. I guess I'm just one of those who believes that ultimately the buck stops with management. They were just as greedy and sleazy as the unions, and then some.

[Cap'n Cat]

Move on. Shutter the plants for six months. Throw out the old drawing boards. Start interviewing for positions in the "new" non-union plants that will reopen. Pay a wage that is commensurate with dignity and reason. Raises by merit thereafter. Don't hire drunk white guys or lazy crack-addled niggras or any asshole who f*cking smokes. Contribute to 401K's. No golden handcuffs or parachutes.

And, f*ck all Republicans.

[lifesapuntreturn]

Yes, management signed the contracts. But, what you seem to be overlooking is that unions insisted on those contracts after lengthy negotiations and not only threatened to strike but actually did so, more than once, when they did not get what they wanted.

Agree. The big three were already well into the process of major restructuring with the hammer dropped. UAW gave up billions in pay and benefits to help out, then gas prices exploded and the financial crisis hit. No home equity, no automobile.

Both Mgt. and Unions are responsible. I guess I'm just one of those who believes that ultimately the buck stops with management. They were just as greedy and sleazy as the unions, and then some.

It appears we are both viewing the same circumstances through different lenses. You are taking the current events view and I am viewing it historically.

The things you have stated are accurate but they are not the only or entire reason the current situation exists. The current problem exists because the problem has been growing and growing and growing for 30 years but virtually no one was talking about it outside the automobile industry. Now it's here and people are acting surprised and thinking it just popped up in the past few months. Suddenly the unions decided to recognize the handwriting on the wall and make concessions but it was far too little and far too late to avert the current circumstances. They should have been realizing this day would come for the past 30 years. They did not and here we are.

Case in point, again, look at the manufacturers in the southern U.S. We haven't heard a peep from them in regard to a bailout and from the news accounts I seen, heard and read, they are doing well because they have not been burdened with unrealistic union contracts all these years, nor are they now. That give management the flexibility to do what they need to do rather than having their hands tied by a union contract that restricts and defines what they can or cannot do.

Many people fall into the trap of only looking at situations once they become a problem and acting surprised when those situations become problematic. It's willful ignorance. People don't pay attention because they don't want to know and then when a problem arises, they claim they didn't know and play the victim role - "I didn't know so don't blame me". The Big 3 mess is just one example. The whole mortgage mess/credit crisis is an even greater example. People who were watching this whole thing unfold for the past several years are not surprised by it because it was obvious that whole situation couldn't continue, but as a country we kept lying to ourselves via willful ignorance and now here we are. But it's too late to do anything about correcting the problem and throwing trillions at it isn't working. It's evident the large banks are in much worse shape than they or the feds are willing to admit publicly given all of the trillions of dollars that have inundated the monetary system with no publicly meaningful result. Until the banks get healed up, they aren't going to be lending. And until they start lending again for home purchases, all of those empty, unsold, foreclosed homes are going to be on the market. It will be years before we see the end of this mess. A couple of years ago I thought it would be 2010 or 2011. Now I'm thinking 2015. It's going to be a long, tough ride, imho.

[Col Hogan]

Agree. The big three were already well into the process of major restructuring with the hammer dropped. UAW gave up billions in pay and benefits to help out, then gas prices exploded and the financial crisis hit. No home equity, no automobile.

Both Mgt. and Unions are responsible. I guess I'm just one of those who believes that ultimately the buck stops with management. They were just as greedy and sleazy as the unions, and then some.

It appears we are both viewing the same circumstances through different lenses. You are taking the current events view and I am viewing it historically.

The things you have stated are accurate but they are not the only or entire reason the current situation exists. The current problem exists because the problem has been growing and growing and growing for 30 years but virtually no one was talking about it outside the automobile industry. Now it's here and people are acting surprised and thinking it just popped up in the past few months. Suddenly the unions decided to recognize the handwriting on the wall and make concessions but it was far too little and far too late to avert the current circumstances. They should have been realizing this day would come for the past 30 years. They did not and here we are.

Case in point, again, look at the manufacturers in the southern U.S. We haven't heard a peep from them in regard to a bailout and from the news accounts I seen, heard and read, they are doing well because they have not been burdened with unrealistic union contracts all these years, nor are they now. That give management the flexibility to do what they need to do rather than having their hands tied by a union contract that restricts and defines what they can or cannot do.

Many people fall into the trap of only looking at situations once they become a problem and acting surprised when those situations become problematic. It's willful ignorance. People don't pay attention because they don't want to know and then when a problem arises, they claim they didn't know and play the victim role - "I didn't know so don't blame me". The Big 3 mess is just one example. The whole mortgage mess/credit crisis is an even greater example. People who were watching this whole thing unfold for the past several years are not surprised by it because it was obvious that whole situation couldn't continue, but as a country we kept lying to ourselves via willful ignorance and now here we are. But it's too late to do anything about correcting the problem and throwing trillions at it isn't working. It's evident the large banks are in much worse shape than they or the feds are willing to admit publicly given all of the trillions of dollars that have inundated the monetary system with no publicly meaningful result. Until the banks get healed up, they aren't going to be lending. And until they start lending again for home purchases, all of those empty, unsold, foreclosed homes are going to be on the market. It will be years before we see the end of this mess. A couple of years ago I thought it would be 2010 or 2011. Now I'm thinking 2015. It's going to be a long, tough ride, imho.

Great post, and I don't disagree with anything you've said...but for the past 30 years, management has also become bloated at the Big-3, and needs to be severly paired down along with the deadly union contracts...

I know it's a joke, but the one about the Japanese Auto Company rowing team vs. the Detroit (Ford, GM,) Auto rowing team takes on a little more reality these days...

For those not familiar with the joke, enjoy...

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?s ... y590209994

And if you aslready know the joke and don't hit the link, here's something from the end of the post to think about...

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses.

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

I wonder how GM stacks up? Anyone know?

[Cap'n Cat]

Let 'em fail. If Obama bails them out, I'm votin' Conk the rest of my life.

[houndawg]

Yeah, ever since management lost 50% of their market share. The Big 3 desperately need godd leadership. They need to:

Reduce overhead. Lay off two managers for each assembly line worker, starting at the very top where the worst problems are.

Management is a symptom, not the root, of the problem. Their biggest mistake has been agreeing to these give away union contracts all these years.


The unions now trying to blame "management" for the problem isn't going to fly anywhere outside of union halls. All you have to do is look at the non-union auto manufacturers in the south, who are profitable and have been for years, to understand what's caused this problem.

Not so. The fact that unions exist at all is a result of poor management. Fire the executive suite en masse, and half of the salaried workforce. Cut the overhead to the bone before you start cutting direct labor.

[HI54UNI]

Let 'em fail. If Obama bails them out, I'm votin' Conk the rest of my life.

I'm with you on that Capn. And there are a lot of Republicans that will never, ever get my vote for anything because they voted for the bailout. I don't care for Tom Vilsack but I hope he beats Chuck Grassley over the head in a couple years. Fake f'ing conservatives.

[UNI88]

Management is a symptom, not the root, of the problem. Their biggest mistake has been agreeing to these give away union contracts all these years.


The unions now trying to blame "management" for the problem isn't going to fly anywhere outside of union halls. All you have to do is look at the non-union auto manufacturers in the south, who are profitable and have been for years, to understand what's caused this problem.

Not so. The fact that unions exist at all is a result of poor management. Fire the executive suite en masse, and half of the salaried workforce. Cut the overhead to the bone before you start cutting direct labor.

Don't disagree with you about managment Dawg - smart leaders realized a long time ago that hard/smart workers were an essential asset to their business and took care of them accordingly.

When people complain about the cost of union labor at the auto manufacturers, they're not just complaining about the costs due to the wage rates and number of workers. There are other factors that need to be addressed for the Big 3 to compete:

- Work rules that force the manufacturers to hire more people but impede efficiency
- Defined benefit pension plans (while the majority of the country has defined contribution plans)
- Health care plans with 100% coverage and low deductibles (while the rest of the country is moving toward employees sharing some of the cost of their coverage)

You might think that these "benefits" are fine & dandy and from a employees perspective they are but they make it very difficult for the manfacturers to compete and what good are the benefits if the employer is unable to honor their obligation.

You might also think that it's management's fault for signing the darn contracts and you would be 50% right. Management's options during contract negotiations likely were to either negotiate the best they could but accept the union terms in order to keep their business operating or to take a strike and try risk of losing market share immediately. So they wimped out and took the easy road, leaving the eventual loss of market share for someone else to worry about. Union leadership deserves just as much of the blame. Just as many in corporate management lacked vision & leadership in focusing on short-term stock market results, many union leaders ignored the long-term impact of their contract demands and gotten as much as they could at that time, not worrying about how the piper would be paid when the debt came due.

For the union/management relationship to work in the auto industry, they need to work together to help the company compete. This will likely require significantly greater cuts and concessions than have already been made.

[lifesapuntreturn]

Not so. The fact that unions exist at all is a result of poor management. Fire the executive suite en masse, and half of the salaried workforce. Cut the overhead to the bone before you start cutting direct labor.

Don't disagree with you about managment Dawg - smart leaders realized a long time ago that hard/smart workers were an essential asset to their business and took care of them accordingly.

When people complain about the cost of union labor at the auto manufacturers, they're not just complaining about the costs due to the wage rates and number of workers. There are other factors that need to be addressed for the Big 3 to compete:

- Work rules that force the manufacturers to hire more people but impede efficiency
- Defined benefit pension plans (while the majority of the country has defined contribution plans)
- Health care plans with 100% coverage and low deductibles (while the rest of the country is moving toward employees sharing some of the cost of their coverage)

You might think that these "benefits" are fine & dandy and from a employees perspective they are but they make it very difficult for the manfacturers to compete and what good are the benefits if the employer is unable to honor their obligation.

You might also think that it's management's fault for signing the darn contracts and you would be 50% right. Management's options during contract negotiations likely were to either negotiate the best they could but accept the union terms in order to keep their business operating or to take a strike and try risk of losing market share immediately. So they wimped out and took the easy road, leaving the eventual loss of market share for someone else to worry about. Union leadership deserves just as much of the blame. Just as many in corporate management lacked vision & leadership in focusing on short-term stock market results, many union leaders ignored the long-term impact of their contract demands and gotten as much as they could at that time, not worrying about how the piper would be paid when the debt came due.

For the union/management relationship to work in the auto industry, they need to work together to help the company compete. This will likely require significantly greater cuts and concessions than have already been made.

Your quote I italicized and bolded covers the issue very well, UNI88. Both sides took immediate/short term views of a long term situation and today the piper is requiring payment.

Those who continue to take management to task are refusing to understand that philosophically it doesn't matter now who is or was right or wrong. It simply doesn't matter. All that matters now is that if the Big 3 cannot make money, they are history. Period. All of the philosophy and theory and academic-style debates simply do not matter any more. The bottom line is the bottom line and if any or all of the Big 3 don't make money from now on, they are history. They can no longer absorb the losses.

That's why I wouldn't be at all surprised if they end up in a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy and emerge as one company "U.S. Automotive Motors" aka USA Motors and make only Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, Ford and Chrysler. All of the other GM, Ford and Chrysler nameplates (e.g. Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Lincoln, Dodge, etc.) go by the wayside. All will make cars and Chevy and Ford will also make pickups and suv's. Chrysler will make mini-vans in addition to cars. That's will be the U.S. auto industry.