Clean Coal?

[Appaholic]

Obviously, this is the fault of environmentalists and the pictures don't tell the whole story....

http://www.dailysentinel.com/news/conte ... =1&cxcat=0

Enter T-Man in 5.....4.....3.....2.....

[dbackjon]

Thanks for posting that. I have been doing a slow burn on this.

I know the place well - birded there many times. The area ruined by this was a major heron/egret rookery area, as well as a great stream.

Coal Ash is toxic, with lots of heavy minerals - it is looking like there have been small breaches/leaks that TVA tried to fix in the past few years.


Heads need to roll on this.

[Appaholic]

Thanks for posting that. I have been doing a slow burn on this.

I know the place well - birded there many times. The area ruined by this was a major heron/egret rookery area, as well as a great stream.

Coal Ash is toxic, with lots of heavy minerals - it is looking like there have been small breaches/leaks that TVA tried to fix in the past few years.


Heads need to roll on this.

Doubtful Jon. TVA doesn't think there is an issue and their testing has shown that the water is clean...

Officials at the Tennessee Valley Authority have said preliminary tests suggest there is no danger to millions of people who get their drinking water from the 652-mile Tennessee River.

A TVA news release Wednesday also said there was no threat to the environment from the breach at the plant near Harriman along the Emory River, which joins the Clinch River and flows into the main Tennessee River.

....and the massive fish kill could have been something besides the tons of ash in the river...

TVA spokesman Gil Francis has said the fish may have died from the freezing cold that contributed to the breach, not pollutants.....The bulk of the fly ash "consists of inert material not harmful to the environment," the TVA statement said.

[dbackjon]

Yes, that is why local residents are having to go to the hospital, boil water, vomiting, etc.

Fly ash HAS heavy metals and mercury in it.

[Appaholic]

Yes, that is why local residents are having to go to the hospital, boil water, vomiting, etc.

Fly ash HAS heavy metals and mercury in it.

Jon, don't you think the TVA would know? They ARE the professionals and a top rate organization rated up there with COE. It's just a bunch of envirowhackos blowing a spilt cup 'o milk out of proportion....he!!, those residents wouldn't be able to boil the water on their electric ranges without the TVA, for crissakes!

[dbackjon]

Yes, that is why local residents are having to go to the hospital, boil water, vomiting, etc.

Fly ash HAS heavy metals and mercury in it.

Jon, don't you think the TVA would know? They ARE the professionals and a top rate organization rated up there with COE. It's just a bunch of envirowhackos blowing a spilt cup 'o milk out of proportion....he!!, those residents wouldn't be able to boil the water on their electric ranges without the TVA, for crissakes!

TVA is mostly good, but they are screwing the pooch on this one.

[Appaholic]

Jon, don't you think the TVA would know? They ARE the professionals and a top rate organization rated up there with COE. It's just a bunch of envirowhackos blowing a spilt cup 'o milk out of proportion....he!!, those residents wouldn't be able to boil the water on their electric ranges without the TVA, for crissakes!

TVA is mostly good, but they are screwing the pooch on this one.

Just "mostly good"? You hate the TVA.......

[travelinman67]

...and the alternative is (i.e., what do we do to replace this, and when will it be available. Specifics please.)?

You need to relax, Jon...you're letting political viewpoints psyche you out. BTW, what'd you get for Christmas?

[dbackjon]

What I am upset about, T-man, is not the accident itself. Those happen. But the fact that there were warning signs, questions about the integrity of the dike, long before this.


And then the response from TVA.

Yesterday, they admitted the spill was 3 times the size they first reported. More sludge spilled than the pond was supposed to hold.


They are not being responsive to the people affected.

[Appaholic]

...and the alternative is (i.e., what do we do to replace this, and when will it be available. Specifics please.)?

You need to relax, Jon...you're letting political viewpoints psyche you out. BTW, what'd you get for Christmas?

Dry Ash containment as they use at 5 other plants which will reduce the likelihood of this happening. Or when it does happen, own up to the correct amounts of the spill, issue proper warnings, and don't try to deflect the cause of the fish kill or downplay the possibility of heavy metals in the drinking water....

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/2 ... artner=RSS
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs. ... 0881227022

kind of funny that they are touting the test results from the water intake in Kingston when most residents in the nearby area use well water.....

[Wedgebuster]

Yes Virginia, coal is dirty. The term "clean coal" is also an oxymoron. However, there is high sulfur coal VS. low sulfur coal. It is the low sulfur variety that has been labeled "clean coal."

Montana has a projected 300 year supply of easy to access, low sulfur coal in reserves, Wyoming a 200 year supply. Having the vast amount of public lands to work with, Wyoming went all out to mine and export the low sulfur coal to the nation's power plants, while Montana fell behind in the mining and exporting business while fighting over ownership, and environmental concerns (pit mines).

Coal is a huge part of our future energy needs at this time, and until there is a more efficient and cleaner way to generate power at our disposal.

Natural gas is the only other fossil fuel that has been proven in our country, to be able to compete with the vast coal reserves that exist currently.

[travelinman67]

This apparently occurred 4 days ago. I read about 5-6 articles on the incident. Some said the pond is 80 acres, some, 40. Some said the volume of material was 500 million gallons (an unusual measurement for sludge...normally would use cubic yards or acre feet), some have it over 1 billion gallons. None have varied from the area affected estimate of 300 acres covered to a depth of 4 to 8 feet. Doing some basic math,

1 acre = 43,560 square ft
1 cubic yd = 27 cubic feet
1 cubic ft = 7.481 gal

considering the max vol esti of 300 acres at a depth of 8 ft.

300 acres x 43,560 cf = 13,068,000 cf x 8ft depth = 104,544,000 cf x 7.481 = 782,094,600 gallons; 28,966,444 cy or 17,954 acre ft.

Further, all the knee jerk whackos in the media have jumped all over this because the can include the words "toxic", "coal", and "accident" in a single sentence. ...but I digress. I am not attempting to minimize the incident, merely pointing out that there's a HUGE variance in what's being reported and at this point, I doubt ANYONE is even close to having an accurate assessment as to the actual extent of the sludge slide.

Yet, that does not minimize my point. You both are critical of the management at the plant. Does this mean the plant is OK but for the management errors/misinformation alleged? The plant should be shut down? Again, merely saying, "what they do/did was wrong", doesn't provide "concrete" solutions on how to resolve this, and how long it will be before the "solution" is available.

[Appaholic]

Yes Virginia, coal is dirty. The term "clean coal" is also an oxymoron. However, there is high sulfur coal VS. low sulfur coal. It is the low sulfur variety that has been labeled "clean coal."

Montana has a projected 300 year supply of easy to access, low sulfur coal in reserves, Wyoming a 200 year supply. Having the vast amount of public lands to work with, Wyoming went all out to mine and export the low sulfur coal to the nation's power plants, while Montana fell behind in the mining and exporting business while fighting over ownership, and environmental concerns (pit mines).

Coal is a huge part of our future energy needs at this time, and until there is a more efficient and cleaner way to generate power at our disposal.

Natural gas is the only other fossil fuel that has been proven in our country, to be able to compete with the vast coal reserves that exist currently.

I'm not anti-coal, but I am anti-mountaintop removal and anti-coal companies when they start spewing their goddam BS rhetoric about environmentalists costing jobs as they blow the tops of mtns and lay workers off as opposed to keeping the workers and mining in a responsible manner....

[Appaholic]

This apparently occurred 4 days ago. I read about 5-6 articles on the incident. Some said the pond is 80 acres, some, 40. Some said the volume of material was 500 million gallons (an unusual measurement for sludge...normally would use cubic yards or acre feet), some have it over 1 billion gallons. None have varied from the area affected estimate of 300 acres covered to a depth of 4 to 8 feet. Doing some basic math,

1 acre = 43,560 square ft
1 cubic yd = 27 cubic feet
1 cubic ft = 7.481 gal

considering the max vol esti of 300 acres at a depth of 8 ft.

300 acres x 43,560 cf = 13,068,000 cf x 8ft depth = 104,544,000 cf x 7.481 = 782,094,600 gallons; 28,966,444 cy or 17,954 acre ft.

Further, all the knee jerk whackos in the media have jumped all over this because the can include the words "toxic", "coal", and "accident" in a single sentence. ...but I digress. I am not attempting to minimize the incident, merely pointing out that there's a HUGE variance in what's being reported and at this point, I doubt ANYONE is even close to having an accurate assessment as to the actual extent of the sludge slide.

Yet, that does not minimize my point. You both are critical of the management at the plant. Does this mean the plant is OK but for the management errors/misinformation alleged? The plant should be shut down? Again, merely saying, "what they do/did was wrong", doesn't provide "concrete" solutions on how to resolve this, and how long it will be before the "solution" is available.

I agree T-Man, seriously, I can't bitch about coal use (who can) as I sit here in my climate controlled house typing away on a laptop with a TV on....my problem is the failure to act responsibly.....this is a government organization...given your experience with the government in Cali, do you think this situation would have allowed this to happen if this plant had been run by a small, private, for-profit entity?

[travelinman67]

This apparently occurred 4 days ago. I read about 5-6 articles on the incident. Some said the pond is 80 acres, some, 40. Some said the volume of material was 500 million gallons (an unusual measurement for sludge...normally would use cubic yards or acre feet), some have it over 1 billion gallons. None have varied from the area affected estimate of 300 acres covered to a depth of 4 to 8 feet. Doing some basic math,

1 acre = 43,560 square ft
1 cubic yd = 27 cubic feet
1 cubic ft = 7.481 gal

considering the max vol esti of 300 acres at a depth of 8 ft.

300 acres x 43,560 cf = 13,068,000 cf x 8ft depth = 104,544,000 cf x 7.481 = 782,094,600 gallons; 28,966,444 cy or 17,954 acre ft.

Further, all the knee jerk whackos in the media have jumped all over this because the can include the words "toxic", "coal", and "accident" in a single sentence. ...but I digress. I am not attempting to minimize the incident, merely pointing out that there's a HUGE variance in what's being reported and at this point, I doubt ANYONE is even close to having an accurate assessment as to the actual extent of the sludge slide.

Yet, that does not minimize my point. You both are critical of the management at the plant. Does this mean the plant is OK but for the management errors/misinformation alleged? The plant should be shut down? Again, merely saying, "what they do/did was wrong", doesn't provide "concrete" solutions on how to resolve this, and how long it will be before the "solution" is available.

I agree T-Man, seriously, I can't bitch about coal use (who can) as I sit here in my climate controlled house typing away on a laptop with a TV on....my problem is the failure to act responsibly.....this is a government organization...given your experience with the government in Cali, do you think this situation would have allowed this to happen if this plant had been run by a small, private, for-profit entity?

That's a double edged sword...was just discussing this yesterday.

As a rule, govt managed facilities/organizations are the least efficient. Operations manuals/mission statements are generated, and once complete, the worker learn the level of least efficiency/production that will allow them to retain their job, then settle in at that level of inefficiency: There is no motive to become more efficient or productive, and so long as they "play by the rules" they can be inflexible to the point of being rude when dealing with their "clients" or "customers" and CAN NOT be held accountable for unprofessional conduct.
In the private sector, the motives CAN be present to encourage increased efficiency and productivity, yet, in the same breath, management then looks at the profit motive, and will eliminate as many "overhead" costs as possible to inflate net profit, including, safety and long term capital improvements.
Bottomline...a facility like the Kingston plant would be (again, as a rule...) better managed by LOCAL/REGIONAL govt. organizations who have a vested interest both environmentally and as the consumer. And, btw, I have a personal vested interest in that region as there's a 30-50% chance I'll end up retiring in or near Knoxville. Now...answer my question...

What'd you get for Christmas?

[Appaholic]

I agree T-Man, seriously, I can't bitch about coal use (who can) as I sit here in my climate controlled house typing away on a laptop with a TV on....my problem is the failure to act responsibly.....this is a government organization...given your experience with the government in Cali, do you think this situation would have allowed this to happen if this plant had been run by a small, private, for-profit entity?

That's a double edged sword...was just discussing this yesterday.

As a rule, govt managed facilities/organizations are the least efficient. Operations manuals/mission statements are generated, and once complete, the worker learn the level of least efficiency/production that will allow them to retain their job, then settle in at that level of inefficiency: There is no motive to become more efficient or productive, and so long as they "play by the rules" they can be inflexible to the point of being rude when dealing with their "clients" or "customers" and CAN NOT be held accountable for unprofessional conduct.
In the private sector, the motives CAN be present to encourage increased efficiency and productivity, yet, in the same breath, management then looks at the profit motive, and will eliminate as many "overhead" costs as possible to inflate net profit, including, safety and long term capital improvements.
Bottomline...a facility like the Kingston plant would be (again, as a rule...) better managed by LOCAL/REGIONAL govt. organizations who have a vested interest both environmentally and as the consumer. And, btw, I have a personal vested interest in that region as there's a 30-50% chance I'll end up retiring in or near Knoxville. Now...answer my question...

What'd you get for Christmas?

I'm sorry...saw the "jon" and thought you were talking to DBack....let's see, I got:

- 3 books; State of Denial (Bob Woodward), American Lion (John Meacham) and A Dog Named Christmas (Greg Kincaid)
- 2 CD's: Velvet Underground (20th Remastered) and John Coltrane (Trane's Blues)
- 1 framed poster replica of Watauga Democrat front page from the 2005 NC
- made donations to Pastor's Pantry, Empty Stocking Fund, Wake Co. SPCA, Henderson County Animal Shelter, Ashville Humane Society

a good year...kalso performed some volunteer work with AHS that was very rewarding..worked my first animal adoption and found a home for a dog the Saturday before Christmas...that was cool....also, hold on to your hats, took my mom to Christmas Eve service and communion....

How about you? Any good scotch?

[travelinman67]

I'm sorry...saw the "jon" and thought you were talking to DBack....let's see, I got:

- 3 books; State of Denial (Bob Woodward), American Lion (John Meacham) and A Dog Named Christmas (Greg Kincaid)
- 2 CD's: Velvet Underground (20th Remastered) and John Coltrane (Trane's Blues)
- 1 framed poster replica of Watauga Democrat front page from the 2005 NC
- made donations to Pastor's Pantry, Empty Stocking Fund, Wake Co. SPCA, Henderson County Animal Shelter, Ashville Humane Society

a good year...kalso performed some volunteer work with AHS that was very rewarding..worked my first animal adoption and found a home for a dog the Saturday before Christmas...that was cool....also, hold on to your hats, took my mom to Christmas Eve service and communion....

How about you? Any good scotch?

Glenfarclas, 21 year...nectar of the Gods. Books by John Hightower "Nothing's in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead Armadillos", and "If the Gods had intended us to vote, they would have invented candidates." Enough cookies and candies to keep me guilty til February, and one of my sister's made my late Irish grandmother's State Fair Award Winning and cookbook published fruitcake...have to soak the fruit in port for two months, put a cup of rum in the batter, then when finished, while still in the pan, after it cools, pour one cup of brandy over and and allow it to soak in "as a preservative". My grandmother, of course, never drank...

My "spare time" has been spent at a retirement home recently, I'm going to post something about it around the first of the year...I'm doing some "community service" that crosses a bridge I never thought I'd cross.

[Appaholic]

Jim Hightower "Nothing's in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead Armadillos", and "If the Gods had intended us to vote, they would have invented candidates."

WOW! Can't wait to hear your comments after you read Armadillos....haven't read the other, but would be interested in your thoughts.....also, I'll be happy to help you with the Scotch if needed....I'm a heluva guy that way.....

[HI54UNI]

...and the alternative is (i.e., what do we do to replace this, and when will it be available. Specifics please.)?

You need to relax, Jon...you're letting political viewpoints psyche you out. BTW, what'd you get for Christmas?

The alternative is not to use this type of ash disposal. Yes it costs money but why would they not switch that large of a plant to a dry ash is beyond me. The power plants my employer is involved in recycle ash and use it in concrete with any not recycled going to a lined, state DNR inspected and approved landfill.

[travelinman67]

...and the alternative is (i.e., what do we do to replace this, and when will it be available. Specifics please.)?

You need to relax, Jon...you're letting political viewpoints psyche you out. BTW, what'd you get for Christmas?

The alternative is not to use this type of ash disposal. Yes it costs money but why would they not switch that large of a plant to a dry ash is beyond me. The power plants my employer is involved in recycle ash and use it in concrete with any not recycled going to a lined, state DNR inspected and approved landfill.

Yeah, that was my thought...this was just very careless (lazy) management.

[dbackjon]

KINGSTON, Tenn. – The spill of more than a billion gallons of coal ash from a power plant in East Tennessee may change the way the nation's largest government-owned utility stores coal waste.

Roane County officials are pushing the Tennessee Valley Authority to quit using large retention ponds filled with water and fly ash, a byproduct of coal-fired power plants.

One of the ponds burst Dec. 22 at a plant roughly 35 miles west of Knoxville, sending a flood of gray sludge over about 300 acres and destroying three homes.

Roane County Executive Mike Farmer said Monday he doesn't expect to see such holding ponds on the TVA property in the future.

TVA Chief Executive Tom Kilgore also told residents at a meeting Sunday that his agency is reviewing storage options at the plant.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081229/ap_ ... ighborhood