Bert Blyleven And The Lack Of Honors

[UNHWildCats]

A common argument today is that Bert Blyleven doesn't belong on the Hall of Fame because his stats are inflated because of a long career and the evidence that he isn't among the all time elite is the fact he was only an all star twice and only four times received votes for the Cy Young Award.

The voters and others making this argument are flawed in their assessment. How others view a players career shouldn't matter in deciding if they are worthy of enshrinement. Voters for awards a lot of times have an agenda.

The only thing that should matter to HOF voters is performance over their entirety of a career.

Looking at the league leaders in pitching categories in 1974 shows Blyleven was one of the top 4 pitchers in the league that season, yet because he played for a mediocre team and finished with a 17-17 record he got no votes for the Cy Young award.

Ted Williams won the Triple Crown in 1947. He led the league slugging, OBP, OPS, OPS+ and so on... he lost the MVP by 1 point and was left off a ballot entirely... why? who knows, but its been widely known Williams didn't have the best of relationships with the media, a simple 10th place vote on that one ballot would have made Williams the MVP... But this isn't really about winning the award... it just shows that the awards and other honors aren't always awarded based on performance, thus should not be considered when weighing a players career.

Today Burt Blyleven finally got the call he deserves and its a shame people out there are still arguing against his credentials.

[SuperHornet]

A common argument today is that Bert Blyleven doesn't belong on the Hall of Fame because his stats are inflated because of a long career and the evidence that he isn't among the all time elite is the fact he was only an all star twice and only four times received votes for the Cy Young Award.

The voters and others making this argument are flawed in their assessment. How others view a players career shouldn't matter in deciding if they are worthy of enshrinement. Voters for awards a lot of times have an agenda.

The only thing that should matter to HOF voters is performance over their entirety of a career.

Looking at the league leaders in pitching categories in 1974 shows Blyleven was one of the top 4 pitchers in the league that season, yet because he played for a mediocre team and finished with a 17-17 record he got no votes for the Cy Young award.

Ted Williams won the Triple Crown in 1947. He led the league slugging, OBP, OPS, OPS+ and so on... he lost the MVP by 1 point and was left off a ballot entirely... why? who knows, but its been widely known Williams didn't have the best of relationships with the media, a simple 10th place vote on that one ballot would have made Williams the MVP... But this isn't really about winning the award... it just shows that the awards and other honors aren't always awarded based on performance, thus should not be considered when weighing a players career.

Today Burt Blyleven finally got the call he deserves and its a shame people out there are still arguing against his credentials.

x ∞

[DJH]

The baseball HOF is fucking retarded, in almost every way.

[GannonFan]

It did take this guy 14 years to finally get over the threshold and into the HOF - it's not as if his career was an easy, slam dunk one to be inducted into the Hall. I've got no problem with people having an opinion he shouldn't be in there - he was far from a first ballot guy.

[DJH]

The baseball HOF is fucking retarded, in almost every way.

http://deadspin.com/5725821/lets-marvel ... hof-ballot

Pretty much sums up my feelings.

[UNHWildCats]

It did take this guy 14 years to finally get over the threshold and into the HOF - it's not as if his career was an easy, slam dunk one to be inducted into the Hall. I've got no problem with people having an opinion he shouldn't be in there - he was far from a first ballot guy.

I don't have a problem with people not thinking he belongs either, but I do have a problem with them using his lack of Cy Young Awards and a large amount of all star bids as a reason.

[Rob Iola]

Eh, he's no Roger Clemens...

[Gil Dobie]

Eh, he's no Roger Clemens...

Bert did have more Complete Games and Shutouts than Roger

[GannonFan]

It did take this guy 14 years to finally get over the threshold and into the HOF - it's not as if his career was an easy, slam dunk one to be inducted into the Hall. I've got no problem with people having an opinion he shouldn't be in there - he was far from a first ballot guy.

I don't have a problem with people not thinking he belongs either, but I do have a problem with them using his lack of Cy Young Awards and a large amount of all star bids as a reason.

What's wrong about using those as reasons? If they're the only reasons, sure, that's weak, but I don't see anything wrong with talking about those things and pointing out that Blyleven didn't have a lot of either. It's really not any different than talking about Blyleven as a compiler of stats rather than a great pitcher. Again, it's just part of the argument. Heck, I use that argument all the time when I argue against people who think Brett Favre is the greatest QB of all time (yes, there are actually people that believe that) - when was Brett Favre ever the best QB playing in a single year? I always thought he was the lesser QB when compared to Aikman, or Elway, or Gannon, or Manning, or Brady. Favre never would've won the Cy Young equivalent against those guys. Of course, the argument loses it's luster when you consider that Favre wasn't too far behind those guys and he's clearly a HOF'er, even with the cell phone photos, but it's an argument nonetheless.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I don't have a problem with people not thinking he belongs either, but I do have a problem with them using his lack of Cy Young Awards and a large amount of all star bids as a reason.

What's wrong about using those as reasons? If they're the only reasons, sure, that's weak, but I don't see anything wrong with talking about those things and pointing out that Blyleven didn't have a lot of either. It's really not any different than talking about Blyleven as a compiler of stats rather than a great pitcher. Again, it's just part of the argument. Heck, I use that argument all the time when I argue against people who think Brett Favre is the greatest QB of all time (yes, there are actually people that believe that) - when was Brett Favre ever the best QB playing in a single year? I always thought he was the lesser QB when compared to Aikman, or Elway, or Gannon, or Manning, or Brady. Favre never would've won the Cy Young equivalent against those guys. Of course, the argument loses it's luster when you consider that Favre wasn't too far behind those guys and he's clearly a HOF'er, even with the cell phone photos, but it's an argument nonetheless.

My gripe when it comes to criticism of Blyleven boils down to this...

take his numbers and longevity (and postseason success) and put him in a big market or on teams were even half decent... and he'd have been first-ballot material. Problem for Bert was that with the exception of the late 70's with the Pirates and the late 80's with the Twins, he was NEVER on a winning team... the Twins in the 70's? the Rangers? the Indians of the 80's? Had Bert played for even .500 clubs or got even half-decent run support, he'd have something like 330 wins.

I've never understood the arguments against longevity as a metric for qualification. very few players can say they had a 20+ year career. that takes ability, that takes having something in the tank that convinces an organization to stick with you as opposed to a younger, cheaper alternative... this doesn't mean Jaime Moyer is a Hall candidate... but then, in similar time frames, Moyer hasn't put up Blyleven's numbers or success.

[grizzaholic]

A common argument today is that Bert Blyleven doesn't belong on the Hall of Fame because his stats are inflated because of a long career and the evidence that he isn't among the all time elite is the fact he was only an all star twice and only four times received votes for the Cy Young Award.

The voters and others making this argument are flawed in their assessment. How others view a players career shouldn't matter in deciding if they are worthy of enshrinement. Voters for awards a lot of times have an agenda.

The only thing that should matter to HOF voters is performance over their entirety of a career.

Looking at the league leaders in pitching categories in 1974 shows Blyleven was one of the top 4 pitchers in the league that season, yet because he played for a mediocre team and finished with a 17-17 record he got no votes for the Cy Young award.

Ted Williams won the Triple Crown in 1947. He led the league slugging, OBP, OPS, OPS+ and so on... he lost the MVP by 1 point and was left off a ballot entirely... why? who knows, but its been widely known Williams didn't have the best of relationships with the media, a simple 10th place vote on that one ballot would have made Williams the MVP... But this isn't really about winning the award... it just shows that the awards and other honors aren't always awarded based on performance, thus should not be considered when weighing a players career.

Today Burt Blyleven finally got the call he deserves and its a shame people out there are still arguing against his credentials.

Come on......I am still waiting....

I think we all are.

[WWII]

I'm just glad he finally got in. I've been hoping for that a long time.

[Gil Dobie]

Blyleven had a great career, but I'd still take Jack Morris to pitch in a game over Bert.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Blyleven had a great career, but I'd still take Jack Morris to pitch in a game over Bert.

perhaps - but i'd take Blyleven for a full season over Morris.

[Gil Dobie]

Blyleven had a great career, but I'd still take Jack Morris to pitch in a game over Bert.

perhaps - but i'd take Blyleven for a full season over Morris.

I'd take Jack for a full season or a decade or a career over Bert.

Interesting trivia, in 1987 Bert was 36 and was 15-12 for the Twins with a 4.01 ERA and 196 K's and 3-1 in the playoffs.
1991 Jack Morris was 36 and was 18-12 for the Twins with a 3.43 ERA and 163 K's and 4-0 in the playoffs.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

perhaps - but i'd take Blyleven for a full season over Morris.

I'd take Jack for a full season or a decade or a career over Bert.

Interesting trivia, in 1987 Bert was 36 and was 15-12 for the Twins with a 4.01 ERA and 196 K's and 3-1 in the playoffs.
1991 Jack Morris was 36 and was 18-12 for the Twins with a 3.43 ERA and 163 K's and 4-0 in the playoffs.

I'm just remembering "meltdown Morris" games... the 1987 ALCS leaps to mind...

(I like Jack, but still don't think he's a Hall of Famer)

[Gil Dobie]

I'd take Jack for a full season or a decade or a career over Bert.

Interesting trivia, in 1987 Bert was 36 and was 15-12 for the Twins with a 4.01 ERA and 196 K's and 3-1 in the playoffs.
1991 Jack Morris was 36 and was 18-12 for the Twins with a 3.43 ERA and 163 K's and 4-0 in the playoffs.

I'm just remembering "meltdown Morris" games... the 1987 ALCS leaps to mind...

(I like Jack, but still don't think he's a Hall of Famer)

Has Blyleven ever pitched an ALCS game in the dome against the Twins. 1 game isn't a very good judge of a pitchers career. Morris does have 4 rings and a 7-4 post season record.

[Gil Dobie]

I work as a vendor at Twinsfest and don't participate in the autograph portion, but I do talk to a lot of fans that pay money and stand in long lines to have their favorite Twin or former Twin sign their valuable collectibles. Well Bert made himself the biggest JERK of all the autograph guest at Twinsfest since it's inception in the 1980's. Most of the people i talked with said Bert had a bad attitude. Couple examples, one person had a baseball signed in black ink by all the players, Bert gets the ball and refuses to sign in black, grabs a blue pen and signs the ball. Another had a team photo signed by several players, Bert signs his name at the bottom, draws a line through the photo, through the other autographs and puts an arrow pointing to him and tells the person, now you know who I am. Hall of Fame election has gone to his head, obviously. Bert is in the Isiah Rider autograph appearance Hall of Shame, membership 2.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I work as a vendor at Twinsfest and don't participate in the autograph portion, but I do talk to a lot of fans that pay money and stand in long lines to have their favorite Twin or former Twin sign their valuable collectibles. Well Bert made himself the biggest JERK of all the autograph guest at Twinsfest since it's inception in the 1980's. Most of the people i talked with said Bert had a bad attitude. Couple examples, one person had a baseball signed in black ink by all the players, Bert gets the ball and refuses to sign in black, grabs a blue pen and signs the ball. Another had a team photo signed by several players, Bert signs his name at the bottom, draws a line through the photo, through the other autographs and puts an arrow pointing to him and tells the person, now you know who I am. Hall of Fame election has gone to his head, obviously. Bert is in the Isiah Rider autograph appearance Hall of Shame, membership 2.

I asked him about this at spring training in 06 - having heard similar stories...

his response "i'm not in the business of making a bunch of collectors money on ebay for gathering signatures..." it's the same reason he only signs stuff of himself with "to john doe..." he, and I don't disagree with him on this... isn't interested in making a bunch of guys money off of his signature...

[GannonFan]

I've got no problem with guys signing or not signing in a way that will make an autograph harder to sell later. While there are still innocents left in the area of getting autographs, there are so many professional autograph hounds out there that it is distateful knowing that some people are thinking just of ebay when they get autographs. I never saw the attraction to autographs anyway.

[Gil Dobie]

I asked him about this at spring training in 06 - having heard similar stories...

his response "i'm not in the business of making a bunch of collectors money on ebay for gathering signatures..." it's the same reason he only signs stuff of himself with "to john doe..." he, and I don't disagree with him on this... isn't interested in making a bunch of guys money off of his signature...

Sorry to burst his bubble but there is not much money to be made on a Bert Blyleven autograph in the first place. He's not high demand and his price is low. Most of the complaints of items he has screwed up have come from Twins fans that don't sell the autographs they collect. Bert is paranoid. How much does Bert make on an autograph appearance when he is paid to sign? He seems okay with taking the money. His autographs are not free at Twinsfest either, everyone has to pay for them. He should take a lesson from Harmon Killebrew, a true gentleman, and you never hear any complaints about Harmon.

[Gil Dobie]

I've got no problem with guys signing or not signing in a way that will make an autograph harder to sell later. While there are still innocents left in the area of getting autographs, there are so many professional autograph hounds out there that it is distateful knowing that some people are thinking just of ebay when they get autographs. I never saw the attraction to autographs anyway.

I can see him messing with free autograph seekers/hounds, but the fans at Twinsfest paid for their autograph in a controlled environment that Bert was there for the very reason, to sign autographs.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I've got no problem with guys signing or not signing in a way that will make an autograph harder to sell later. While there are still innocents left in the area of getting autographs, there are so many professional autograph hounds out there that it is distateful knowing that some people are thinking just of ebay when they get autographs. I never saw the attraction to autographs anyway.

I can see him messing with free autograph seekers/hounds, but the fans at Twinsfest paid for their autograph in a controlled environment that Bert was there for the very reason, to sign autographs.

Yeah - but I met him at Twins Fest in 93 i think (the year it was at MOA) - and he insisted on personalizing everything he signed for collectors... the only thing he signed straight was a press plate from the Star Tribune from 1987 that a guy in my group was getting signed... bert (and most of the 87 guys) were geeking out over it... (it's a hell of a collectible - that's for sure)

[Gil Dobie]

I can see him messing with free autograph seekers/hounds, but the fans at Twinsfest paid for their autograph in a controlled environment that Bert was there for the very reason, to sign autographs.

Yeah - but I met him at Twins Fest in 93 i think (the year it was at MOA) - and he insisted on personalizing everything he signed for collectors... the only thing he signed straight was a press plate from the Star Tribune from 1987 that a guy in my group was getting signed... bert (and most of the 87 guys) were geeking out over it... (it's a hell of a collectible - that's for sure)

I don't think personalizing items is an issue. If you have a multi-signed item, and Bert does his little thing on it, it pretty much ruins the item for display, not to mention the $100-$200 the collector has into the autographs.