Can we stop the "It's not Islam" crap?

[D1B]

Pretty sure the conks own that meme.

Oh really? The liberal hawks like Hillary have a better explanation?

Don't fool yourself. Better yet, ask yourself if the has been any change at all- towards addressing what ails the muzzie world about the West now that the Lightbringer has had more than 4 years to cure?

Smart Power!


Sent from the center of the universe.

Liberals do have the answer - reduce our dependency on Mideast oil, then hold those assholes accountable for their abhorrent behavior.

We would have no terrorism from the Middle East if we just listened to Jimmy Carter.

[DSUrocks07]

Oh really? The liberal hawks like Hillary have a better explanation?

Don't fool yourself. Better yet, ask yourself if the has been any change at all- towards addressing what ails the muzzie world about the West now that the Lightbringer has had more than 4 years to cure?

Smart Power!


Sent from the center of the universe.

Liberals do have the answer - reduce our dependency on Mideast oil, then hold those assholes accountable for their abhorrent behavior.

We would have no terrorism from the Middle East if we just listened to Jimmy Carter.

Errr...

Financial Times: US oil imports from Middle East increase

[CID1990]

Oh really? The liberal hawks like Hillary have a better explanation?

Don't fool yourself. Better yet, ask yourself if the has been any change at all- towards addressing what ails the muzzie world about the West now that the Lightbringer has had more than 4 years to cure?

Smart Power!


Sent from the center of the universe.

Liberals do have the answer - reduce our dependency on Mideast oil, then hold those assholes accountable for their abhorrent behavior.

We would have no terrorism from the Middle East if we just listened to Jimmy Carter.

Absolutely no difference between liberals and conservatives on this issue. Conservatives are quite vocal on the need to wean ourselves off of foreign fossil fuels. The difference isn't the "what", it is the "how".

Jimmeh might have been progressive on this issue, but the O Admin is not. They dump gobs of money into upside down and failing alternative energy companies, while the EPA attempts to artificially force the issue by killing coal and domestic oil resources. They aren't just economic resources, they are strategic ones as well.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Pwns]

One thing that can't be overlooked Islam simply has more followers in developing countries that just have an entrenched violent culture. Take Pakistan for example...you have a struggling economy with lots of financially struggling young men coupled with a poor education system that teaches hate and fundamentalism. Those are ideal conditions for creating terrorists.

[kalm]

One thing that can't be overlooked Islam simply has more followers in developing countries that just have an entrenched violent culture. Take Pakistan for example...you have a struggling economy with lots of financially struggling young men coupled with a poor education system that teaches hate and fundamentalism. Those are ideal conditions for creating terrorists.

Very true.

[CitadelGrad]

One thing that can't be overlooked Islam simply has more followers in developing countries that just have an entrenched violent culture. Take Pakistan for example...you have a struggling economy with lots of financially struggling young men coupled with a poor education system that teaches hate and fundamentalism. Those are ideal conditions for creating terrorists.

To what extent is Islam the source of those violent cultures? I'd say quite a bit. Islam, throughout its history, has expanded largely through violent conquest. When Islam began moving out of the Arabian peninsula, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Egypt were largely Christian. The conversion of people in those countries was mostly coerced. Islam occupied Spain for centuries through violent conquest. Islam invaded and conquered much of southern Europe. Islam invaded France. Islam invaded Italy. Islam invaded Austria. Islam is a pestilence in dire need of an exterminator.

[LeadBolt]

Liberals do have the answer - reduce our dependency on Mideast oil, then hold those assholes accountable for their abhorrent behavior.

We would have no terrorism from the Middle East if we just listened to Jimmy Carter.

Absolutely no difference between liberals and conservatives on this issue. Conservatives are quite vocal on the need to wean ourselves off of foreign fossil fuels. The difference isn't the "what", it is the "how".

Jimmeh might have been progressive on this issue, but the O Admin is not. They dump gobs of money into upside down and failing alternative energy companies, while the EPA attempts to artificially force the issue by killing coal and domestic oil resources. They aren't just economic resources, they are strategic ones as well.


Sent from the center of the universe.

This. Curing the energy problem of depending upon foreign fuel shouldn't be ideologic. When it is, it fails. All of the above is the correct answer.

All forms of domestic energy should be developed in a smart manner. While renewable energy is a large portion of the future answer, ignoring domestic fossil fuels in the near and intermediate term is not smart energy, but rather putting ideology ahead of a viable solution, just as developing domestic fossil fuel while not developing renewable energy is not smart either.

Their are large portions of the country where solar, wind and thermal energy are viable and large portions where it is not. Fossil fuels will always be needed in certain parts of the US, but not to the extent of today.

[LeadBolt]

One thing that can't be overlooked Islam simply has more followers in developing countries that just have an entrenched violent culture. Take Pakistan for example...you have a struggling economy with lots of financially struggling young men coupled with a poor education system that teaches hate and fundamentalism. Those are ideal conditions for creating terrorists.

To what extent is Islam the source of those violent cultures? I'd say quite a bit. Islam, throughout its history, has expanded largely through violent conquest. When Islam began moving out of the Arabian peninsula, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Egypt were largely Christian. The conversion of people in those countries was mostly coerced. Islam occupied Spain for centuries through violent conquest. Islam invaded and conquered much of southern Europe. Islam invaded France. Islam invaded Italy. Islam invaded Austria. Islam is a pestilence in dire need of an exterminator.

Islam has unquestionably historically been a large determinate in developing these violent cultures.

In certain modern cultures Islam has evolved into a less violent and mostly peaceful influence. These peaceful offshoots of Islam need to try to assert a positive influence on the other parts of Islam, not merely express regret at violent outbreaks and hope that reaction does not spill over to the peaceful variants.

As has been pointed out, Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

[houndawg]

To what extent is Islam the source of those violent cultures? I'd say quite a bit. Islam, throughout its history, has expanded largely through violent conquest. When Islam began moving out of the Arabian peninsula, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Egypt were largely Christian. The conversion of people in those countries was mostly coerced. Islam occupied Spain for centuries through violent conquest. Islam invaded and conquered much of southern Europe. Islam invaded France. Islam invaded Italy. Islam invaded Austria. Islam is a pestilence in dire need of an exterminator.

Islam has unquestionably historically been a large determinate in developing these violent cultures.

In certain modern cultures Islam has evolved into a less violent and mostly peaceful influence. These peaceful offshoots of Islam need to try to assert a positive influence on the other parts of Islam, not merely express regret at violent outbreaks and hope that reaction does not spill over to the peaceful variants.

As has been pointed out, Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

Treating the symptom.


The problem is the feeble-minded dolts who subscribe to the beliefs of ancient goat-herders.

[LeadBolt]

Islam has unquestionably historically been a large determinate in developing these violent cultures.

In certain modern cultures Islam has evolved into a less violent and mostly peaceful influence. These peaceful offshoots of Islam need to try to assert a positive influence on the other parts of Islam, not merely express regret at violent outbreaks and hope that reaction does not spill over to the peaceful variants.

As has been pointed out, Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

Treating the symptom.


The problem is the feeble-minded dolts who subscribe to the beliefs of ancient goat-herders.

I would settle for curing the symptom. Given that the majority of the world's population subscribes to the beliefs of the ancients, and most are non-violent, it works for me.

[Grizalltheway]

Treating the symptom.


The problem is the feeble-minded dolts who subscribe to the beliefs of ancient goat-herders.

I would settle for curing the symptom. Given that the majority of the world's population subscribes to the beliefs of the ancients, and most are non-violent, it works for me.

And how do you propose curing the symptom?

[LeadBolt]

I would settle for curing the symptom. Given that the majority of the world's population subscribes to the beliefs of the ancients, and most are non-violent, it works for me.

And how do you propose curing the symptom?

Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

[houndawg]

And how do you propose curing the symptom?

Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

That's what we need - perpetual war on most everything! It could be as successful as the 50 year-old War on Drugs!

[HI54UNI]

Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

That's what we need - perpetual war on most everything! It could be as successful as the 50 year-old War on Drugs!

Or the war on poverty!

[Hoseinexile07]

In lieu of another dissertation, I'll recommend a few books germane to this discussion.

Karen Barkey, Empire of Difference: The Ottomans in a Comparative Perspective
Richard Bulliet, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization
Maria Rosa Menocal, Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Christians and Jews Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain (I think the author probably goes too far in this direction, but a provoking read nonetheless)

[houndawg]

And how do you propose curing the symptom?

Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

Well, sheeeeit, why don't you pass that info up the line, LB? They may not know they've been doing it wrong for decades

[YoUDeeMan]

In lieu of another dissertation, I'll recommend a few books germane to this discussion.

Karen Barkey, Empire of Difference: The Ottomans in a Comparative Perspective
Richard Bulliet, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization
Maria Rosa Menocal, Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Christians and Jews Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain (I think the author probably goes too far in this direction, but a provoking read nonetheless)

Hmmm...wonder what Karen Barkey is going to write about today's Turkey? Ataturk's dream of a secular Turkey is crumbling amidst an increasingly harder-line Muslim influence. Recent excessive force used against protesters (laughable, considering that Erdogan used to be an ally of Assad, but turned his back saying that Assad used too much force against peaceful opposition protesters ), jailing of journalists on a scale often compared to China, and an erosion of the rights of secular people and organizations in the last 10 years has Turkey headed back in time. Recent attempts to ban or reduce alcohol sales and consumption, certain colors of lipstick and nail polish, and an increasing intolerance of diversity of lifestyles have all come from the Muslim side. Only the court system has prevented further erosion, but the Muslin legislators, in the majority, continue to try to reduce the court's authority.

A battle is looming in Turkey if things don't get settled down there quickly.

[AZGrizFan]

Islam is not monolithic. The peaceful variants need to be encouraged and the violent variants need to either evolve or be coerced (peacefully or not) into not espousing violence and terrorism.

That's what we need - perpetual war on most everything! It could be as successful as the 50 year-old War on Drugs!

Orwell would be proud.

[kalm]

That's what we need - perpetual war on most everything! It could be as successful as the 50 year-old War on Drugs!

Orwell would be proud.

You'd hate Orwell's politics.

[Hoseinexile07]

Recent excessive force used against protesters (laughable, considering that Erdogan used to be an ally of Assad, but turned his back saying that Assad used too much force against peaceful opposition protesters ), jailing of journalists on a scale often compared to China, and an erosion of the rights of secular people and organizations in the last 10 years has Turkey headed back in time.

Phrases like this aren't helpful. Back in time to when? I'd say that if anything, cracking down on anti-government protests and restricting expression and assembly sounds like a throwback to the Turkish Republic before World War II and a call out of Kemal Ataturk's own playbook. So before we set Ataturk on a pedestal as some secular, modernizing, liberty-loving hero, it's important to remember that was also the head of a one-party state (as was the mode of Germany, the USSR, and Italy in the 1930s), a ruthless centralizer, and an authoritarian who criminalized the wearing of certain types of clothing. Secularism and freedom don't necessarily go hand in hand.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I noticed that in some of your posts you talk about "Muslin" this and that. Muslin is a fabric.

[AZGrizFan]

Recent excessive force used against protesters (laughable, considering that Erdogan used to be an ally of Assad, but turned his back saying that Assad used too much force against peaceful opposition protesters ), jailing of journalists on a scale often compared to China, and an erosion of the rights of secular people and organizations in the last 10 years has Turkey headed back in time.

Phrases like this aren't helpful. Back in time to when? I'd say that if anything, cracking down on anti-government protests and restricting expression and assembly sounds like a throwback to the Turkish Republic before World War II and a call out of Kemal Ataturk's own playbook. So before we set Ataturk on a pedestal as some secular, modernizing, liberty-loving hero, it's important to remember that was also the head of a one-party state (as was the mode of Germany, the USSR, and Italy in the 1930s), a ruthless centralizer, and an authoritarian who criminalized the wearing of certain types of clothing. Secularism and freedom don't necessarily go hand in hand.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I noticed that in some of your posts you talk about "Muslin" this and that. Muslin is a fabric.

[Ibanez]

Recent excessive force used against protesters (laughable, considering that Erdogan used to be an ally of Assad, but turned his back saying that Assad used too much force against peaceful opposition protesters ), jailing of journalists on a scale often compared to China, and an erosion of the rights of secular people and organizations in the last 10 years has Turkey headed back in time.

Phrases like this aren't helpful. Back in time to when? I'd say that if anything, cracking down on anti-government protests and restricting expression and assembly sounds like a throwback to the Turkish Republic before World War II and a call out of Kemal Ataturk's own playbook. So before we set Ataturk on a pedestal as some secular, modernizing, liberty-loving hero, it's important to remember that was also the head of a one-party state (as was the mode of Germany, the USSR, and Italy in the 1930s), a ruthless centralizer, and an authoritarian who criminalized the wearing of certain types of clothing. Secularism and freedom don't necessarily go hand in hand.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I noticed that in some of your posts you talk about "Muslin" this and that. Muslin is a fabric.

It's a joke. Lighten up.

[LeadBolt]

In lieu of another dissertation, I'll recommend a few books germane to this discussion.

Karen Barkey, Empire of Difference: The Ottomans in a Comparative Perspective
Richard Bulliet, The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization
Maria Rosa Menocal, Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Christians and Jews Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain (I think the author probably goes too far in this direction, but a provoking read nonetheless)

You seem to have inadvertently left Robert Spencer's "The Politically Incorrect Guide to ISLAM (and the Crusades) off of the list. It would certainly help to generate discussion.

[YoUDeeMan]

Phrases like this aren't helpful. Back in time to when? I'd say that if anything, cracking down on anti-government protests and restricting expression and assembly sounds like a throwback to the Turkish Republic before World War II and a call out of Kemal Ataturk's own playbook. So before we set Ataturk on a pedestal as some secular, modernizing, liberty-loving hero, it's important to remember that was also the head of a one-party state (as was the mode of Germany, the USSR, and Italy in the 1930s), a ruthless centralizer, and an authoritarian who criminalized the wearing of certain types of clothing. Secularism and freedom don't necessarily go hand in hand.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I noticed that in some of your posts you talk about "Muslin" this and that. Muslin is a fabric.

Ataturk may have been a little heavy handed, but that was because he was dealing with a bunch of deposed cut throats, shifting the political and financial power base, and forcing modernization and change upon a largely ignorant population. He banned the fez because it was a symbol of the past. That isn't the same as forcing women to hide themselves entirely. Ataturk gave women full political rights...something the Muslim world, especially in the Middle Ages...I mean Middle East...still resists today. Women's rights? Woman gets raped...kill her for tempting the man.

Seriously, WTF is it with Muslins...they lose their minds when someone mentions that their violent, rapist, leader, Mohammed, was a power hungry con artist of the highest order. You can try to blather away about context all you want, but right now, Islam, as it is practiced by a large number of its followers, is a problem. Christians, the vast majority of them, at least in the past century or so, seem to have seen the light and given up violence in the name of their Lord...perhaps for Lent. You don't see the Pope issuing fatwas because some cartoonist drew an unflattering picture of Christ. But Muslins? Their men must have some serious self-image problems because they can be swayed too easily to forgo all reason and resort to nothing more than violent, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, linear thinking.

[YoUDeeMan]

BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I noticed that in some of your posts you talk about "Muslin" this and that. Muslin is a fabric.

It's a joke. Lighten up.

I bet that picture wasn't in any of the books Hoser recommended.

That's the problem with people who focus too much on specific literature on a particular subject...they often miss what is happening in the real world. And the real world can be particularly amusing.