Fair Tax

[CID1990]

Isn't Forbes for this?

It must be bad if a rich dude is in favor

I thought he was for the flat tax

oh yeah

well I'm sure there are rich dudes who are in favor of the fair tax, too

[JohnStOnge]

From the site:

Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax (HR25/S122) provides a monthly universal prebate to ensure that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application.

If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

[JohnStOnge]

Oh...but if it gets rid of the IRS I'm for it. At least for now. As things are we already have the evil of "progressive' taxation. So nothing would be lost in that area if we adopted this "Fair Tax" thing while getting rid of the IRS would be a DEFINITE plus.

Adopt it, get rid of the IRS, and we can talk about continuing to work towards a truly fair tax system later.

[OL FU]

From the site:

Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax (HR25/S122) provides a monthly universal prebate to ensure that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application.

If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

Not even close. If you look at a "fair" tax as everyone paying the same percentage of income (which you probably don't ), the higher the income the less percentage one would pay since it is pretty clear that most people making upper income wages are not using all of their money for consumption. That honestly, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with the fair tax. As I said, on a percentage of income basis, the middle class will pay the highest.

After writing this, I went back and re-read your comments a little closer and realized that your opinion is so out of touch with reality I shouldn't have even responded.

[Baldy]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

Not even close. If you look at a "fair" tax as everyone paying the same percentage of income (which you probably don't ), the higher the income the less percentage one would pay since it is pretty clear that most people making upper income wages are not using all of their money for consumption. That honestly, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with the fair tax. As I said, on a percentage of income basis, the middle class will pay the highest.

After writing this, I went back and re-read your comments a little closer and realized that your opinion is so out of touch with reality I shouldn't have even responded.

[houndawg]

From the site:

Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax (HR25/S122) provides a monthly universal prebate to ensure that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application.

If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

You're out-of-touch with reality, Johnny. You really are.

[Ibanez]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

Not even close. If you look at a "fair" tax as everyone paying the same percentage of income (which you probably don't ), the higher the income the less percentage one would pay since it is pretty clear that most people making upper income wages are not using all of their money for consumption. That honestly, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with the fair tax. As I said, on a percentage of income basis, the middle class will pay the highest.

After writing this, I went back and re-read your comments a little closer and realized that your opinion is so out of touch with reality I shouldn't have even responded.

OL FU, for the win!!!!

[Ibanez]

From the site:

Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax (HR25/S122) provides a monthly universal prebate to ensure that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application.

If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

John, everyone paying the same tax rate is not fair. It would only be fair if we all made the same amount of money. The problem with fair tax, is that life isn't fair. Some people just can't afford it.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: posted this before I re-read about the Fair Tax. I forgot it wasn't on income.
There are people that wouldn't be able to afford a tax bill that someone making $60k or $4M a year can. If we all had to pay $15,000 a year, regardless of income, that's a huge burden on people that are at the poverty line vice someone that can make $10,000 in a week.

For a family of 2, with two people making $30k a year, asking them to give 50% of their income while someone else can give 10% of their income isn't fair.


Now, I eagerly await a doctoral thesis from you outlining how a 35% tax rate for someone making $30,000/year is fair and equal to someone that makes $100,000/yr. Hell, it's not the same for someone making $30,500/yr. Or how a, for the sake of argument, $15,000 tax bill is equal for a person making $30,000 and for a person earning $60,000.

[Ibanez]

Btw, Baldy knows way more about this than most of us.

[Ibanez]

edit: It's been a while since I read about the Fair Tax. 23% tax on new goods and services. Hm. Still, everyone paying the same rate, isn't exactly fair. Those with more disposable income will end up paying more taxes by virtue of buying more things and things with higher price tags.


Didn't JSO say that wasn't fair?

[OL FU]

edit: It's been a while since I read about the Fair Tax. 23% tax on new goods and services. Hm. Still, everyone paying the same rate, isn't exactly fair. Those with more disposable income will end up paying more taxes by virtue of buying more things and things with higher price tags.


Didn't JSO say that wasn't fair?

They will pay a smaller percentage of their income because a smaller % of their income will be used on consumption and more will go into savings.

[kalm]

From the site:

Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax (HR25/S122) provides a monthly universal prebate to ensure that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application.

If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

John, sorry to pile on as it looks like you're fighting a losing battle here, but a couple of additional questions:

1) Please define "productivity" especially as it applies to various income levels.

2) From which moral code do you define progressive taxation as "evil"?

[Ibanez]

edit: It's been a while since I read about the Fair Tax. 23% tax on new goods and services. Hm. Still, everyone paying the same rate, isn't exactly fair. Those with more disposable income will end up paying more taxes by virtue of buying more things and things with higher price tags.


Didn't JSO say that wasn't fair?

They will pay a smaller percentage of their income because a smaller % of their income will be used on consumption and more will go into savings.

Yes, I went the opposite route and said the rich would pay more overall.

[OL FU]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

John, sorry to pile on

Bullshit

[Grizalltheway]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

Not even close. If you look at a "fair" tax as everyone paying the same percentage of income (which you probably don't ), the higher the income the less percentage one would pay since it is pretty clear that most people making upper income wages are not using all of their money for consumption. That honestly, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with the fair tax. As I said, on a percentage of income basis, the middle class will pay the highest.

After writing this, I went back and re-read your comments a little closer and realized that your opinion is so out of touch with reality I shouldn't have even responded.

You needed to read it TWICE to realize it wasn't based on reality? You're slipping, Mr. FU.

[Grizalltheway]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

John, sorry to pile on as it looks like you're fighting a losing battle here, but a couple of additional questions:

1) Please define "productivity" especially as it applies to various income levels.

2) From which moral code do you define progressive taxation as "evil"?

He's a straight (supposedly), white, property-owning male. His whole life is a losing battle.

[OL FU]

Not even close. If you look at a "fair" tax as everyone paying the same percentage of income (which you probably don't ), the higher the income the less percentage one would pay since it is pretty clear that most people making upper income wages are not using all of their money for consumption. That honestly, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with the fair tax. As I said, on a percentage of income basis, the middle class will pay the highest.

After writing this, I went back and re-read your comments a little closer and realized that your opinion is so out of touch with reality I shouldn't have even responded.

You needed to read it TWICE to realize it wasn't based on reality? You're slipping, Mr. FU.

I am getting old

[HI54UNI]

at how much traction a 7 year old thread is getting.

[OL FU]

at how much traction a 7 year old thread is getting.

[Ibanez]

As far as to point #2, income taxes are assessed and paid on an individual level. That alone makes it much easier for people to willfully avoid paying taxes. Just like state sales taxes, the The Fair Tax will require businesses to be the ones filing and remitting the tax. For compliance purposes, and by its very structure, it is much easier to "go after" businesses than it is individuals.

Enforcing non compliance for businesses who willfully fail to comply must be swift and severe.
That alone has been a problem with the IRS. Slow to react and letting people off way too easily.

Unless that business is a perceived "conservative" business....

Show me one email from the IRS that proves this

[UNI88]

From the site:



If a tax is "progressive" it's not fair. It's not a Fair Tax. It's the same old same old of hitching the wagon to the productive so the unproductive can get a free or nearly free ride.

Get rid of the "probate" part and it gets closer to fair. Still not fair because truly fair would be looking at how much is needed in revenue, dividing it by the number of people in the country, and having each person pay their equal share. But it'd be closer.

Making someone pay more because they make more money is not fair. Never has been. Never will be.

John, everyone paying the same tax rate is not fair. It would only be fair if we all made the same amount of money. The problem with fair tax, is that life isn't fair. Some people just can't afford it.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: posted this before I re-read about the Fair Tax. I forgot it wasn't on income.
There are people that wouldn't be able to afford a tax bill that someone making $60k or $4M a year can. If we all had to pay $15,000 a year, regardless of income, that's a huge burden on people that are at the poverty line vice someone that can make $10,000 in a week.

For a family of 2, with two people making $30k a year, asking them to give 50% of their income while someone else can give 10% of their income isn't fair.


Now, I eagerly await a doctoral thesis from you outlining how a 35% tax rate for someone making $30,000/year is fair and equal to someone that makes $100,000/yr. Hell, it's not the same for someone making $30,500/yr. Or how a, for the sake of argument, $15,000 tax bill is equal for a person making $30,000 and for a person earning $60,000.

I don't think John is arguing for a everyone to pay taxes at the same rate but instead that everyone should pay the same amount. i.e. if the government needs $1 Billion and there are 1 million people in the USA, than everyone pays $1,000.

[OL FU]

John, everyone paying the same tax rate is not fair. It would only be fair if we all made the same amount of money. The problem with fair tax, is that life isn't fair. Some people just can't afford it.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: posted this before I re-read about the Fair Tax. I forgot it wasn't on income.
There are people that wouldn't be able to afford a tax bill that someone making $60k or $4M a year can. If we all had to pay $15,000 a year, regardless of income, that's a huge burden on people that are at the poverty line vice someone that can make $10,000 in a week.

For a family of 2, with two people making $30k a year, asking them to give 50% of their income while someone else can give 10% of their income isn't fair.


Now, I eagerly await a doctoral thesis from you outlining how a 35% tax rate for someone making $30,000/year is fair and equal to someone that makes $100,000/yr. Hell, it's not the same for someone making $30,500/yr. Or how a, for the sake of argument, $15,000 tax bill is equal for a person making $30,000 and for a person earning $60,000.

I don't think John is arguing for a everyone to pay taxes at the same rate but instead that everyone should pay the same amount. i.e. if the government needs $1 Billion and there are 1 million people in the USA, than everyone pays $1,000.

That is what he is saying and that is why it isn't realistic unless you think we can carve the government down to minimal amount. I think right now that would be around $11,000 per person. So a family of four would owe $44,000.

[Grizalltheway]

I don't think John is arguing for a everyone to pay taxes at the same rate but instead that everyone should pay the same amount. i.e. if the government needs $1 Billion and there are 1 million people in the USA, than everyone pays $1,000.

That is what he is saying and that is why it isn't realistic unless you think we can carve the government down to minimal amount. I think right now that would be around $11,000 per person. So a family of four would owe $44,000.

There's the rub. If you think the goverment should only spend a fraction of what it currently does, that's fine. But expecting a family of four with a household income of say 60k to pay the same dollar amount (44k) as one that makes 250k+ just isn't realistic.

[Ibanez]

John, everyone paying the same tax rate is not fair. It would only be fair if we all made the same amount of money. The problem with fair tax, is that life isn't fair. Some people just can't afford it.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: posted this before I re-read about the Fair Tax. I forgot it wasn't on income.
There are people that wouldn't be able to afford a tax bill that someone making $60k or $4M a year can. If we all had to pay $15,000 a year, regardless of income, that's a huge burden on people that are at the poverty line vice someone that can make $10,000 in a week.

For a family of 2, with two people making $30k a year, asking them to give 50% of their income while someone else can give 10% of their income isn't fair.


Now, I eagerly await a doctoral thesis from you outlining how a 35% tax rate for someone making $30,000/year is fair and equal to someone that makes $100,000/yr. Hell, it's not the same for someone making $30,500/yr. Or how a, for the sake of argument, $15,000 tax bill is equal for a person making $30,000 and for a person earning $60,000.

I don't think John is arguing for a everyone to pay taxes at the same rate but instead that everyone should pay the same amount. i.e. if the government needs $1 Billion and there are 1 million people in the USA, than everyone pays $1,000.

yes, I thought I touched on that in my response about everyone paying the same amount. Regardless, $1000 maybe a lot of money to some just starting out, a family of 4 in Norfolk, a single man in Manhattan, etc....

What you can afford is not the same as what Trip can afford or what Ivytalk can afford.

[Ibanez]

That is what he is saying and that is why it isn't realistic unless you think we can carve the government down to minimal amount. I think right now that would be around $11,000 per person. So a family of four would owe $44,000.

There's the rub. If you think the goverment should only spend a fraction of what it currently does, that's fine. But expecting a family of four with a household income of say 60k to pay the same dollar amount (44k) as one that makes 250k+ just isn't realistic.

What's the $44k? Is that everyones share of hte National Debt? The more realistic number would be those with jobs that have the ability to pay. With about 119 million FT employees as of July 2014, that number is closer to $147,000.