AZGrizFan wrote:Yeah. I have a boatload of sympathy for native Americans in 2011. Gil, that might be the most retarded thing I've ever read on this board (well, with the exception of every dOpie post).
With the recent announcement by the Navajo nation that they are building a casino on their reservation, now officially EVERY indian tribe in Arizona has at LEAST one casino, each of which generates millions and millions of dollars for their tribes. New, obscure indian tribes are coming out of the woodwork to file the necessary paperwork to be recognized as an "official" tribe so they can get their snoot in the casino trough.
And we White folks like up like lemmings to hand over our money.....many, many times you will see people literally STANDING IN LINE to play slot machines and take seats at a full card table in any one of the 15+ casinos that ring Phoenix.
Millions and millions of dollars annually....many times each indian is rewarded with huge annual checks from casino profits....and yet they still (for the most part) live in squalor. At some point, doesn't it become THEIR fault?
The casino money is not shared with outside tribe's. If you are in ND and SD and don't have a casino, and are too far out of the way to build one that will make money, then they will continue to live in poverty.
So? A large percentage of Cajuns live in poverty as well...Should we make the Ragin' Cajuns drop THEIR nickname as well?
The logic you Beefalo fanatics apply to this (and the amount of attention you pay to it) is truly frightening.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Gil Dobie wrote:
The casino money is not shared with outside tribe's. If you are in ND and SD and don't have a casino, and are too far out of the way to build one that will make money, then they will continue to live in poverty.
So? A large percentage of Cajuns live in poverty as well...Should we make the Ragin' Cajuns drop THEIR nickname as well?
The logic you Beefalo fanatics apply to this (and the amount of attention you pay to it) is truly frightening.
I never said anything about the nickname, I don't care if it's changed or not. I'm more concerned with treatment of other, as a lower class. I've lived near reservations and I know how the local treat and think about the natives. I've never seen a building painted with the words, "No Cajun's Allowed", however I have seen buildings near the reservation with "No Indians Allowed", and it's more than 1 building.
Neither does INMED, or the numerous other programs at North Dakota geared toward Native Americans, or the fact that North Dakota has one of the highest enrollments of Native Americans in the country, or the fact that a quarter of all doctors in the U.S. of Native American descent came through UND.............
My point was, you and JBB never offer up any of the wonderful things that North Dakota does for the Native American communities in the region, which IMO by the way far outweigh a few incidents that may have taken place in the 70's.
North Dakota as a state doesn't offer up enough, UND or NDSU. Sure there some token things that they do, but not enough. Have you been to the rez lately, it's like a 3rd world country, and people that live in the cities and towns near them, treat them like outcast. Seperate but not equal thrives in the Dakota's. When the communities on the reservations look like a regular small town America, then we can talk.
One of the incidents was from the 1990's, so please use all facts, not just one's that help your arguement.
Please. There's no such thing as third world anymore. It's either developed, developing or under-developed. The cold war is over!
AZGrizFan wrote:
So? A large percentage of Cajuns live in poverty as well...Should we make the Ragin' Cajuns drop THEIR nickname as well?
The logic you Beefalo fanatics apply to this (and the amount of attention you pay to it) is truly frightening.
I never said anything about the nickname, I don't care if it's changed or not. I'm more concerned with treatment of other, as a lower class. I've lived near reservations and I know how the local treat and think about the natives. I've never seen a building painted with the words, "No Cajun's Allowed", however I have seen buildings near the reservation with "No Indians Allowed", and it's more than 1 building.
Perhaps it's because of the way the Indians have historically acted? No.....couldn't be...that would require them to accept personal responsibility....
I'm not saying there's not racists, gil....but your argument doesn't hold water.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
AZGrizFan wrote:"Perhaps it's because of the way the Indians have historically acted? No.....couldn't be...that would require them to accept personal responsibility....
I'm not saying there's not racists, gil....but your argument doesn't hold water.
Many of them have not had a responsible adult at home to teach the next generation how to live.
Gil Dobie wrote:One of the incidents was from the 1990's, so please use all facts, not just one's that help your arguement.
And I'll just ask that you do the same. You cited some "incidents" on North Dakota's campus and used BRIDGES as a source and later seemed infer that somehow those incidents and the nickname can be correlated to poverty on Native American reservations.....................I don't see the link.
Someone (like you apparently) could suggest that UND has a bad relationship with Native Americans and use BRIDGES "facts" to back it up, or on the other hand, one could point to the Indians into Medicine program, the high NA enrollment, millions of dollars in scholarship money funded by the Engelstad Foundation that is specifically earmarked for Native Americans, or the fact that nealry 70% of the nearest tribe approves of the nickname as proof otherwise...........
Gil Dobie wrote:One of the incidents was from the 1990's, so please use all facts, not just one's that help your arguement.
And I'll just ask that you do the same. You cited some "incidents" on North Dakota's campus and used BRIDGES as a source and later seemed infer that somehow those incidents and the nickname can be correlated to poverty on Native American reservations.....................I don't see the link.
Someone (like you apparently) could suggest that UND has a bad relationship with Native Americans and use BRIDGES "facts" to back it up, or on the other hand, one could point to the Indians into Medicine program, the high NA enrollment, millions of dollars in scholarship money funded by the Engelstad Foundation that is specifically earmarked for Native Americans, or the fact that nealry 70% of the nearest tribe approves of the nickname as proof otherwise...........
You need to read what I said, I didn't just say UND, I said the state of North Dakota in general. Are the incidents false just because they are on bridges. I was pointing out the the Native Americans have not been treated very good. Money apparently doesn't buy a nickname.
dbackjon wrote:
And North Dakota's nickname has ZERO to do with that.
They are the one's North Dakota University was trying to get approval from, so the NCAA will accept their nickname.
Again, what does the poverty on the rez's have to do with a nickname. Change the nickname, poverty still will be there. Keep the nickname, poverty will still be there.
Gil Dobie wrote:
They are the one's North Dakota University was trying to get approval from, so the NCAA will accept their nickname.
Again, what does the poverty on the rez's have to do with a nickname. Change the nickname, poverty still will be there. Keep the nickname, poverty will still be there.
Gil associates the poverty with "abuse" or mistreatment. I associate it with laziness and stupidity, both traits that may or may not continue should the nickname remain.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Gil Dobie wrote:You need to read what I said, I didn't just say UND, I said the state of North Dakota in general. Are the incidents false just because they are on bridges. I was pointing out the the Native Americans have not been treated very good. Money apparently doesn't buy a nickname.
You started off by pointing out that Native Americans haven't been treated very good specifically at UND:
As far as UND's nickname, there is a history of native american abuse at the school.
I'm not saying the incidents you mentioned are false.
Based on what goes on at the Saddle & Sirloin club, NDSU obviously "has a history" of African American and homosexual abuse.
Looks like only the straight whities are safe in North Dakota..........................
Gil Dobie wrote:
They are the one's North Dakota University was trying to get approval from, so the NCAA will accept their nickname.
Again, what does the poverty on the rez's have to do with a nickname. Change the nickname, poverty still will be there. Keep the nickname, poverty will still be there.
Help them get out of poverty, treat them as equals, and they may not take the nickname as offensive.
I don't expect a liberal to see people as equals, only as votes.
Gil Dobie wrote:You need to read what I said, I didn't just say UND, I said the state of North Dakota in general. Are the incidents false just because they are on bridges. I was pointing out the the Native Americans have not been treated very good. Money apparently doesn't buy a nickname.
You started off by pointing out that Native Americans haven't been treated very good specifically at UND:
As far as UND's nickname, there is a history of native american abuse at the school.
I'm not saying the incidents you mentioned are false.
Based on what goes on at the Saddle & Sirloin club, NDSU obviously "has a history" of African American and homosexual abuse.
Looks like only the straight whities are safe in North Dakota..........................
The thread is about UND and the nickname, so keeping in topic by using a UND example, just trying to stay on topic, not veering off on Obama or gay rights, or NDSU or something like that.
Gil Dobie wrote:The thread is about UND and the nickname, so keeping in topic by using a UND example, just trying to stay on topic, not veering off on Obama or gay rights, or NDSU or something like that.
Point taken. But you can probably see where a North Dakota fan such as myself would become irritated when a fairly well known message board poster and NDSU fan like Gil Dobie jumps into a nickname arguement on a national forum and leads with "well ya know, there is a history of abuse of native americans at UND"...................
My point is that UND has done and continues to do ALOT for Native Americans not just in the state, but all over..........
You appear to want to paint North Dakota into a rather negative light on the subject................
BIN YOU ARE A FOOL THERE IS THE BRIDGES SITE WITH YEARS OF RACISM FROM UND TO NATIVES
< READ THIS AGAIN
Bincity "Nearly 70% of the nearest Sioux tribe voted to keep the name.................."
WHEN ONLY 25% OF THIER POPULATION VOTED!!! (with und media, radio giving out free tshirts/hats) and you NEEDED BOTH TRIBES TO APPROVE AND STANDING ROCK GAVE YOU THE MIDDLE FINGER!
dbackjon wrote:
Again, what does the poverty on the rez's have to do with a nickname. Change the nickname, poverty still will be there. Keep the nickname, poverty will still be there.
Help them get out of poverty, treat them as equals, and they may not take the nickname as offensive.
I don't expect a liberal to see people as equals, only as votes.
The University of North Dakota changing it's nickname from Fighting Sioux to a name like Lions, Dragons, Tigers, etc... will do nothing to change the poverty of the reservations and how they are perceived by the public.
The state of South Dakota, which you state as having the poorest counties in Amierca, has no university two state universities and neither one has an Indian reference. I don't think any of their other colleges in the state use Indian references either. According to your logic the state of South Dakota shouldn't have any poor areas for Indians, because their universities don't have abusive names.
lakesbison wrote:BIN YOU ARE A FOOL THERE IS THE BRIDGES SITE WITH YEARS OF RACISM FROM UND TO NATIVES
< READ THIS AGAIN
Bincity "Nearly 70% of the nearest Sioux tribe voted to keep the name.................."
WHEN ONLY 25% OF THIER POPULATION VOTED!!! (with und media, radio giving out free tshirts/hats) and you NEEDED BOTH TRIBES TO APPROVE AND STANDING ROCK GAVE YOU THE MIDDLE FINGER!
but.. noo you'll whine like lil girls, hahaha.
So you're sayin that 75% of the population didn't even feel strongly enough to vote on the matter one way or another......................hmm, the nickname must be REALLY oppressing............
You're a numbers a guy, what is normal voter turnout for a tribal election?
lakesbison wrote:BIN YOU ARE A FOOL THERE IS THE BRIDGES SITE WITH YEARS OF RACISM FROM UND TO NATIVES
< READ THIS AGAIN
Bincity "Nearly 70% of the nearest Sioux tribe voted to keep the name.................."
WHEN ONLY 25% OF THIER POPULATION VOTED!!! (with und media, radio giving out free tshirts/hats) and you NEEDED BOTH TRIBES TO APPROVE AND STANDING ROCK GAVE YOU THE MIDDLE FINGER!
but.. noo you'll whine like lil girls, hahaha.
70% of 25% is still 70%.
Let's do the math on this, using easy to round numbers.
There are 400 people. Out of those 400, 100 are surveyed and 70 people are okay with it. It is fair to assume that out of the remaining 300 people about 150 would be okay as well. The drop from 70% to 50% isn't unreasonable. Even at a 50% rate of the remaining people that gives a total of 220 out of 400 being okay with the motion. That is a 55% approval rate.
I'd be willing to bet if the tribes would open the voting up to their people the approval rate would be over 60
Gil Dobie wrote:
Help them get out of poverty, treat them as equals, and they may not take the nickname as offensive.
I don't expect a liberal to see people as equals, only as votes.
The University of North Dakota changing it's nickname from Fighting Sioux to a name like Lions, Dragons, Tigers, etc... will do nothing to change the poverty of the reservations and how they are perceived by the public.
The state of South Dakota, which you state as having the poorest counties in Amierca, has no university two state universities and neither one has an Indian reference. I don't think any of their other colleges in the state use Indian references either. According to your logic the state of South Dakota shouldn't have any poor areas for Indians, because their universities don't have abusive names.
Gil, how are these things possible?
Most of America ignores the plight of the Native American on these reservations.
clenz wrote:
The University of North Dakota changing it's nickname from Fighting Sioux to a name like Lions, Dragons, Tigers, etc... will do nothing to change the poverty of the reservations and how they are perceived by the public.
The state of South Dakota, which you state as having the poorest counties in Amierca, has no university two state universities and neither one has an Indian reference. I don't think any of their other colleges in the state use Indian references either. According to your logic the state of South Dakota shouldn't have any poor areas for Indians, because their universities don't have abusive names.
Gil, how are these things possible?
Most of America ignores the plight of the Native American on these reservations.
Tell me out UND going by Lions instead of Fighting Sioux is going to change how anyone outside of Bismark or Fargo sees the Sioux reservations.
You are trying, and failing, to tie to unrelated points together.
Gil Dobie wrote:The thread is about UND and the nickname, so keeping in topic by using a UND example, just trying to stay on topic, not veering off on Obama or gay rights, or NDSU or something like that.
Point taken. But you can probably see where a North Dakota fan such as myself would become irritated when a fairly well known message board poster and NDSU fan like Gil Dobie jumps into a nickname arguement on a national forum and leads with "well ya know, there is a history of abuse of native americans at UND"...................
My point is that UND has done and continues to do ALOT for Native Americans not just in the state, but all over..........
You appear to want to paint North Dakota into a rather negative light on the subject................
If the shoe fits. North Dakota is just another state that ignores the problem and treats the symptom.
clenz wrote:Tell me out UND going by Lions instead of Fighting Sioux is going to change how anyone outside of Bismark or Fargo sees the Sioux reservations.
You are trying, and failing, to tie to unrelated points together.
If I was trying I would be doing it. I'm just bringing attention to the plight of the Native American on a nickname thread.
The plight of the native American is well documented by those who live in the areas. However, on the flip side I've spent much time on Indian reservations and rarely do I ever get the feeling that most of the people on the reservation want to leave that life.
