Villanova football idea is dead

[Fact]

i couldn't get a seat on the south side of the field, so i had to sit on the north side.. it's criminal that they're reporting a crowd of 6,300.

[93henfan]

Even 6K is pretty impressive for a school the size of Nova. Heck, that's like 4K more than they get for a semifinal football game.

[bluehenbillk]

Great to hear that 'Nova had a big crowd for the Cuse game. Probably some kind of combination of 'Nova having a surprising great start to their lax season & hosting the #1 team in the land on a Saturday night. I actually thought of going myself. I was down at the UD sports complex with my boys at the W&M/UD baseball game on Saturday & the lax xrowd was pretty disappointing IMO.

[GannonFan]

The Villanova-Syracuse Lacrosse game on saturday had a legit 10k crowd. Proof that Villanova can draw if they play against Big East rivals in their marquee sports.

How many were comp/free tickets? I haven't paid for an actual football ticket at nova in years thanks to the blanketing of the local area, including the elementary school my wife teaches at, with free ticket vouchers.

Interesting that they got 10k there for lacrosse. I mean, that's 3k less than went to see nationally ranked nova and Lousiville play earlier in the year in b-ball.

[cougarpines1]

I just don't understand the optimisim. VU cannot consistently sell out the Wells Fargo Center with a ranked BB team ,ten miles from campus,while playing a ranked team yet some believe FB attendence will triple at a stadium 20+ miles from campus in a less then desireable section of Chester while most likely getting initially getting hammered in the irst few years after the move.

[JMUDuke2002]

I just don't understand the optimisim. VU cannot consistently sell out the Wells Fargo Center with a ranked BB team ,ten miles from campus,while playing a ranked team yet some believe FB attendence will triple at a stadium 20+ miles from campus in a less then desireable section of Chester while most likely getting initially getting hammered in the irst few years after the move.

I think its because they see what's coming: a break-up of the Big East. Nova wants to keep their MBB program strong, continue to play UConn, Syracuse, Notre Dame, WVU, and Pitt. If there is a forced split caused by the football schools (which, honestly, I don't know why they haven't done it yet. They'd still put tons of teams in the tournament plus they wouldn't have to spread the BCS money to the smaller privates), Nova would be on the outside in a conference they will one day become a better version of the A10. They are trying to save rivalries and their men's BB program.

[89Hen]

I just don't understand the optimisim. VU cannot consistently sell out the Wells Fargo Center with a ranked BB team ,ten miles from campus,while playing a ranked team yet some believe FB attendence will triple at a stadium 20+ miles from campus in a less then desireable section of Chester while most likely getting initially getting hammered in the irst few years after the move.

I think its because they see what's coming: a break-up of the Big East. Nova wants to keep their MBB program strong, continue to play UConn, Syracuse, Notre Dame, WVU, and Pitt. If there is a forced split caused by the football schools (which, honestly, I don't know why they haven't done it yet. They'd still put tons of teams in the tournament plus they wouldn't have to spread the BCS money to the smaller privates), Nova would be on the outside in a conference they will one day become a better version of the A10. They are trying to save rivalries and their men's BB program.

I think it also is partly that they saw the success UConn had moving from the Yankee to the BE for football. IMO not a good comparison, but I'm sure one that some must think is relevant.

[cougarpines1]

Both of your thesis has merit but thst doesnt support the attendence #s that are being thrown around

[GannonFan]

Both of your thesis has merit but thst doesnt support the attendence #s that are being thrown around

They're damned if they do damned if they don't. They can't stay in FCS as they bleed so much red ink, and FBS really can't be that much worse. FBS is just the best of two bad options. Protecting basketball is a fallacy - they don't profit enough from basketball (about $2M per year) to justify the costs they are talking about for football (at least $30M up front, at least double that to increase PPL to 30k seating, if that's even viable). But to not take the plunge would kill them with backlash from the fanbase that is already getting tired of attending games (76% capacity at Wells Fargo Center this year) and basketball could really struggle next year so something is needed to distract. Hard to see them still having football in a decade - there's only so much money to lose.

[collegesportsinfo]

Lots a good points.

I for one have gone on the record early last year that Nova HAS to do it. I think Nova football in FBS would be an improvement over them in FCS, but I would be shocked if the program got to the level of say UD, JMU, or App St. The obvious football bonus is that you'd have Rutgers, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, etc coming for football...same with powerhouse TCU. Will be MUCH bigger draws than say Maine, URI or W&M.

But I think Nova would still be pretty low on the charts of "success" in FBS.

And I think it's an awful move for the Big East.

The BE could just split today, like a poster just said, and have the top basketball programs splitting their revenue with less schools.

But the BE wants Nova, as odd as it sounds. So Nova NEEDS to take it to preserve their basketball program. The kicker is that the sport has changed a bit. There is more parity thanks in part to the 1 year requirement for the NBA draft. Also helping is the other end of the spectrum...the trend of European players takign so many NBA draft spots. Truth is, there is parity now in hoops, but who knows for how long? There had been a long period where FBS schools dominated the final four. You had rarities like Umass, then Marquette and GTown. Now the next tier is involved with GMU, now VCU, and most importantly thus far, Butler (reached final game). but who knows how long it will last.


So Nova might feel the need to "preserve" basketball by spending the initial money on FBS football. No matter what happens to the Big East or the NCAA, nova would be in the mix. BE split? Nova would be in. Exodus by the top conferences from the NCAA, the anarchy/not-gonna-happen scenario? Nova is in the mix.

But with the new found parity in basketball, maybe they pass on the invite.

The worse case scenario would be a Big East split. But what Villanova would be left with would be pretty good. The comparisons to the A10 are false: this conference would be IN the top 6 or 7 even in a down year. The A10 has been in the Top7 on average, but this new basketball-only conference would be far superior:

Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, DePaul
plus PERHAPS Notre Dame.
Xaiver is a lock.
Since 10 would likely be the goal (as opposed to 12 like for FBS football conferences), you then get a 10th from the pool of Richmond (Gtown has lobbied for them before), Dayton, St. Louis. Charlotte and Umass (supported by Providence) no longer seem like options since both have FBs aspirations. With St. Louis being a new/desirable market, it's likely down to them and Richmond (who again, GTown lobbied HARD for in 2003 when the split was set to happen).

So if you're Villanova, you can save millions by passing on FBS football.
And for basketball, you'd have a strong conference with desirable markets for a Tv contract:
Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, St. Louis


It will be interesting to see how it plays out. But Nova has been offered something coveted, something some good programs in other conferences like the MWC, CUSA, WAC etc have all wanted and not been able to get: a BCS spot. After the initial investment, Nova could make the money back at FBS. But for the life of me, I just don't knwo why the BE would even offer it.

[MALVES21]

QUINN!!

Is Umass waiting for Villanova. How confident are you that Umass will make the jump. http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=487239 Some with inside knowledge on this board say it won't happen for umass.

[collegesportsinfo]

QUINN!!

Is Umass waiting for Villanova. How confident are you that Umass will make the jump. http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=487239 Some with inside knowledge on this board say it won't happen for umass.

It's still the same holding pattern. UMass has in-house things to deal with too as part of the equation. Nothing is set in stone regarding the Temple requirement. But I do know Temple and CUSA had prelim conversations last year, but at that time, it was when CUSA was trying EVERYTHING like a merger with MWC, a TV deal with MWC, the proposed BCS play-in game w/ MWC vs CUSA, expansion to 16, bringing in TCU for non-football sports, etc. CUSA went w/ shotgun approach. But Temple was approached at the time as a FB only replacement, all-sports, you name it. So it is not outside the realm of possibility that if Nova passes, UCF is in the BE as #18, Temple to CUSA for FB, and the MAC remains at 12. Seems like a lot of things need to happen (like passing on a better North Texas program in favor of Temple for CUSA). But sure, it still could happen.

But even if ALL those things play out to leave UMass out of the MAC mix. It also just opens a new door for the MAC to consider other options. It's just as easy for the MAC to team up UMass with App St., Charlotte, GA St., who are also considering FBS to some extent. If there's a spot for an FCS school, it's the first step in a school making a real shot at considering FBS.

[Fact]

Both of your thesis has merit but thst doesnt support the attendence #s that are being thrown around

They're damned if they do damned if they don't. They can't stay in FCS as they bleed so much red ink, and FBS really can't be that much worse. FBS is just the best of two bad options. Protecting basketball is a fallacy - they don't profit enough from basketball (about $2M per year) to justify the costs they are talking about for football (at least $30M up front, at least double that to increase PPL to 30k seating, if that's even viable). But to not take the plunge would kill them with backlash from the fanbase that is already getting tired of attending games (76% capacity at Wells Fargo Center this year) and basketball could really struggle next year so something is needed to distract. Hard to see them still having football in a decade - there's only so much money to lose.

it's not the profit that basketball brings, it's the intangible factor of the free PR that basketball brings to the school. Villanova is a much better school now than it was in 1985 and basketball is probably the single greatest factor contributing to that.

[bluehenbillk]

...it's the intangible factor of the free PR that basketball brings to the school. Villanova is a much better school now than it was in 1985 and basketball is probably the single greatest factor contributing to that.

Well basketball & John DuPont..oops we're not allowed to talk about him are we??

[Mike Johnson]

They're damned if they do damned if they don't. They can't stay in FCS as they bleed so much red ink, and FBS really can't be that much worse. FBS is just the best of two bad options. Protecting basketball is a fallacy - they don't profit enough from basketball (about $2M per year) to justify the costs they are talking about for football (at least $30M up front, at least double that to increase PPL to 30k seating, if that's even viable). But to not take the plunge would kill them with backlash from the fanbase that is already getting tired of attending games (76% capacity at Wells Fargo Center this year) and basketball could really struggle next year so something is needed to distract. Hard to see them still having football in a decade - there's only so much money to lose.

That has to be one of the craziest reasons to move up I have ever heard. To sum it up, you seem to be arguing that they can't affort either FCS or FBS, so they might as well move to FBS as the lessor of two evils.

BTW, Villanova broke even in football last year. Revenues and expenses for football were both $5,228,231. Basketball had revenues of $7,652,470 and expenses of $6,117,021.

In contrast, Delaware had $6,725,054 in football revenues and $5,744,858 in football expenses and $1,565,345 in basketball revenues and $1,663,761 in basketball expenses. I wonder when the red ink in Delaware basketball will end.

[93henfan]

I wonder when the red ink in Delaware basketball will end.

Probably whenever they put a decent team together and the fans start giving a shit about the team again. Here's what the games look like now:

[clenz]

I think UNI women's games draw more than that


EDIT:
I checked the totals, I was wrong.

[bluehenbillk]

BTW, Villanova broke even in football last year. Revenues and expenses for football were both $5,228,231. Basketball had revenues of $7,652,470 and expenses of $6,117,021.

If you believe for one millisecond that 'Nova had $5.2M of FB revenue & $7.6M of hoops revenue I have some investment advice for you that you need to act on TODAY!!!!

[89Hen]

BTW, Villanova broke even in football last year. Revenues and expenses for football were both $5,228,231.

In contrast, Delaware had $6,725,054 in football revenues

First off, I'm not sure what UD has to do with this, but those are some strange figures. One has to assume that the two schools receive the same revenue from the conference and neither have any TV deals outside of the CAA. That means the revenue differences are from ticket sales and donations.

Villanova = 42,865 fans

Delaware = 177,526 fans

Seems hard to belive that VU generates $122 per fan in revenue and UD only generates $38 per.

Maybe VU had some rich alumnus donate $3M or maybe I'm missing something.

[Bostonspider]

Well does VU have an athletic endowment? Richmond's Athletic Department has a $150M Endowment, which they tend to draw 5% a year off of, in order to balance the budget and pay majority of the athletic scholarships.

[GannonFan]

They're damned if they do damned if they don't. They can't stay in FCS as they bleed so much red ink, and FBS really can't be that much worse. FBS is just the best of two bad options. Protecting basketball is a fallacy - they don't profit enough from basketball (about $2M per year) to justify the costs they are talking about for football (at least $30M up front, at least double that to increase PPL to 30k seating, if that's even viable). But to not take the plunge would kill them with backlash from the fanbase that is already getting tired of attending games (76% capacity at Wells Fargo Center this year) and basketball could really struggle next year so something is needed to distract. Hard to see them still having football in a decade - there's only so much money to lose.

it's not the profit that basketball brings, it's the intangible factor of the free PR that basketball brings to the school. Villanova is a much better school now than it was in 1985 and basketball is probably the single greatest factor contributing to that.

Come on, that just sounds like a guy who has only recently followed nova, and mostly from attending the school in the last ten years or so. nova basketball goes way past 1985 - nova was in the Final Four twice before 1985, and made the Elite Eight 8 times before 1985. Heck, nova made the national title game in 1971 with the great, and soon to be discredited, Howard Porter taking UCLA to the brink before losing (and it was the closest loss for UCLA in all their consecutive runs). For those of us who have followed Big 5 basketball since birth, nova basketball didn't just show up from nowhere in 1985.

As for basketball making the university better, again, there's never empirical data to show any of that. People always try to use the Flutie Effect to explain Boston College, but those same people ignore the fact that BC, for years before Flutie ever got there, had made huge strides in increasing applications. Even after terrible football years they still made big increases. Flutie was just a nice story for sports people to try to sell to make sports more important than they really are. I love sports, don't get me wrong, but sports aren't driving schools to be better academic institutions.

[89Hen]

Well does VU have an athletic endowment? Richmond's Athletic Department has a $150M Endowment, which they tend to draw 5% a year off of, in order to balance the budget and pay majority of the athletic scholarships.

Dunno, but if they did, that's not revenue that football is generating. That would just be designated revenue that's already there whether they have football or not.

[GannonFan]

Well does VU have an athletic endowment? Richmond's Athletic Department has a $150M Endowment, which they tend to draw 5% a year off of, in order to balance the budget and pay majority of the athletic scholarships.

That's one of the real huge obstacles nova faces - they have a terrible track record of alumni giving. I think the school's total endowment (academic and athletic) is only around $300M, which is really small for a private school.

[Fact]

it's not the profit that basketball brings, it's the intangible factor of the free PR that basketball brings to the school. Villanova is a much better school now than it was in 1985 and basketball is probably the single greatest factor contributing to that.

Come on, that just sounds like a guy who has only recently followed nova, and mostly from attending the school in the last ten years or so. nova basketball goes way past 1985 - nova was in the Final Four twice before 1985, and made the Elite Eight 8 times before 1985. Heck, nova made the national title game in 1971 with the great, and soon to be discredited, Howard Porter taking UCLA to the brink before losing (and it was the closest loss for UCLA in all their consecutive runs). For those of us who have followed Big 5 basketball since birth, nova basketball didn't just show up from nowhere in 1985.

As for basketball making the university better, again, there's never empirical data to show any of that. People always try to use the Flutie Effect to explain Boston College, but those same people ignore the fact that BC, for years before Flutie ever got there, had made huge strides in increasing applications. Even after terrible football years they still made big increases. Flutie was just a nice story for sports people to try to sell to make sports more important than they really are. I love sports, don't get me wrong, but sports aren't driving schools to be better academic institutions.

I may be 22 years old, but I am by no means oblivious to the legacy of people like Howard Porter, Paul Arizin, Hubie White, Jack Kraft, Al Severance etc. Villanova has been in my family for 60 years, and I know for a fact (from the application and admission process) that it was significantly more difficult to get into in '06 when I got in than it was in '81, '77, '75, and '51 when my two uncles, my father and grandfather applied. Athletic success does mean something in admissions.. If it didn't, every school would be division three.

some examples:

here
here
here
here

if that doesn't serve as proof that the "Flutie Effect" is real then i don't know what does.

[Blue Hen Fanatic]

As long as the CAA has Delaware, Richmond, William & Mary, and JMU, they will remain at the top of the FCS. However, losing Nova would be devastating to Delaware, as they have been the Hens biggest Rival for many years. I love to Hate the Wildcats of Villanova