Do you consider Youngstown State an elite FCS program?

[89Hen]

No, inaccurate yet again.

Small College -> D2
Major College -> D1 > D1A & D1AA

Nope

[89Hen]

To each his own, UD fans think D2 titles count...

UD only has one D2 title and all the Hen fans said go ahead and don't count that one.

[DJH]

UD got a mention on the Jim Rome show today! While talking about the douchiest colleges in America (obviously), "What comes to mind when I hear Delaware? Nothing." "Nobody knows anything about them."

[Saint3333]

No, inaccurate yet again.

Small College -> D2
Major College -> D1 > D1A & D1AA

Nope

Yep. That is how the timeline went.

[ChickenMan]

"What comes to mind when I hear Delaware? Nothing." "Nobody knows anything about them."

UNI and the rest of the MVC sure as hell know plenty about Delaware....

[89Hen]

Nope

Yep.

Really? Where did Delaware, Youngstown, UNI, Montana State, Lehigh, Colgate, UMass, Arkansas St, EIU... all come from prior to I-AA?

[aceinthehole]

Here's my two cents

Prior to 1973 the "Collge Division" National Champion was determined by polling, as there were 4 regional bowls being played. A team can certainly claim a National Championship during this period, but the determination was made by 2 media organizations (UPI and AP) and it was not won on the field in a playoff - something current FCS fans takes much pride in. For example, in 1964, the two different teams were named "College Division National Champions" (Los Angeles State and Whittenburg) by the media, even though neither team won or even played in a regional bowl game. The problem with "National Championships" during this era is the same problem FBS faces today - polling.

From 1973 to 1977, the Division II National Champion, was determined by a playoff, and the field consisted of teams playing at the next highest level of football after what was then known as "Division I." The National Champions during this era are as follows:

1973 - Louisiana Tech
1974 - Central Michigan
1975 - Northern Michigan
1976 - Montana State
1977 - Lehigh University

Begining in 1978 with Florida A&M, the winner of I-AA/FCS playoffs is determined to be the "National Champion" of teams playing at the next highest level of college football after the "Football Bowl Subdivision."

I think it's fair to say (and it seems most Hen fans agree) that their 1979 National Championship is not equal to other championships, because it was earned 'two levels' below the top-level college football being played at the time. But by that same logic, all D-II National Championships (post 1977) are not equal to I-AA/FCS National Championships, period.

I also feel any pre-1973 "National Championships" are not equal to D-II (1973-77) and I-AA/FCS (1978-Present) championships because they were not determined by a playoff system.

[aceinthehole]

Small College National Champions
1946-57 - Asociated Press (AP) polling
1958-63 - AP & United Press International (UPI) polling
1964-72 - AP & UPI polling (4 Regional Bowl games)

Divsion II National Champions
1973 - Louisiana Tech
1974 - Central Michigan
1975 - Northern Michigan
1976 - Montana State
1977 - Lehigh University

I-AA National Champions
1978 - Florida A&M
1979 - Eastern Kentucky
1980 - Boise State
1981 - Idaho State
1982 - Eastern Kentucky
1983 - Southern Illinois
1984 - Montana State
1985 - Georgia Southern
1986 - Georgia Southern
1987 - Northeast Louisiana
1988 - Furman
1989 - Georgia Southern
1990 - Georgia Southern
1991 - Youngstown State
1992 - Marshall
1993 - Youngstown State
1994 - Youngstown State
1995 - Montana
1996 - Marshall
1997 - Youngstown State
1998 - Massachusetts
1999 - Georgia Southern
2000 - Georgia Southern
2001 - Montana
2002 - Western Kentucky
2003 - Delaware
2004 - James Madison
2005 - Appalachian State

FCS National Champions
2006 - Appalachian State
2007 - Appalachian State
2008 - Richmond
2009 - Villanova
2010 - Eastern Washington

[GannonFan]

But by that same logic, all D-II National Championships (post 1978) are not equal to I-AA/FCS National Championships, period.

Not quite "period" - remember, it took several years for I-AA to form, it's not like a switch was thrown and bam, I-AA as we know it was created. By about 1982 it looked like it does today in terms of the number of teams. Those first few years were just the MEAC and OVC and a handful of other teams, hence the smaller playoff field - there just weren't enough teams to pick from. But like everyone here has said, asktericking the '79 title for UD is all fine and well.

I also feel any pre-1973 "National Championships" are not equal to D-II (1973-78) and I-AA/FCS (1979-Present) championships because they were not determined by a playoff system.

Eh, where you stop in that? The playoff field has gotten bigger over time, does that mean that more recent titles, and EWU's in particular, is superior to any that came before it because it was from the largest playoff field? It wasn't until '82 that the bulk of the teams finally came into I-AA - does anyone really think the '78 title was just as equivalent as any that came after '82, by your logic? Are national titles before the BCS system now invalid because of the better, but still flawed way of coming up with a champion? Even outside of college football, do NFL titles pre-Super Bowl not count now because we came up with a different way of determining champions? Are hockey titles pre-expansion in '67 now null and void because there were only 6 teams? History is what history was - trying to minimize that history by using today's criteria is just revisionism. Champions then were champions, period, no matter how much we'd like to change it.

[urmite]

If you really wanted to see which label/division in the past was the closest equivalent of FCS today...it would be great to see what percentage of current FCS programs were in each division from 1960 to 1985...

I don't see a perfect match, but it might give some insight. I think the SoCon and maybe Southland teams are the ones most likely to question the early lower divisions.

[89Hen]

If you really wanted to see which label/division in the past was the closest equivalent of FCS today...it would be great to see what percentage of current FCS programs were in each division from 1960 to 1985...

I don't see a perfect match, but it might give some insight. I think the SoCon and maybe Southland teams are the ones most likely to question the early lower divisions.

I don't have all the data, but from Small College via DII came the Big Sky (including Boise), Yankee, Patriot, Mid Continent (UNI, YSU, EIU, WIU), LaTech, ArkSt... a lot of teams that instantly became I-AA playoff teams in the 80's.

[aceinthehole]

Not quite "period" - remember, it took several years for I-AA to form, it's not like a switch was thrown and bam, I-AA as we know it was created. By about 1982 it looked like it does today in terms of the number of teams. Those first few years were just the MEAC and OVC and a handful of other teams, hence the smaller playoff field - there just weren't enough teams to pick from. But like everyone here has said, asktericking the '79 title for UD is all fine and well.

I will grant you that there was a "period of transition" for teams between D-II and I-AA from 1978-82, and as a result there is a blurry line for the 'national championships' won in each division during those years. I think it could be argued that the 2 divisions were similar or very comparable during that era. I have no real issue with how you have chosen to characterize that.

Eh, where you stop in that? The playoff field has gotten bigger over time, does that mean that more recent titles, and EWU's in particular, is superior to any that came before it because it was from the largest playoff field? It wasn't until '82 that the bulk of the teams finally came into I-AA - does anyone really think the '78 title was just as equivalent as any that came after '82, by your logic? Are national titles before the BCS system now invalid because of the better, but still flawed way of coming up with a champion? Even outside of college football, do NFL titles pre-Super Bowl not count now because we came up with a different way of determining champions? Are hockey titles pre-expansion in '67 now null and void because there were only 6 teams? History is what history was - trying to minimize that history by using today's criteria is just revisionism. Champions then were champions, period, no matter how much we'd like to change it.

However, almost every serious FCS supporter today cites the "playoffs" as the only true format to crown a National Champion. Yes, history is history, and certainly a number of factors make comparisons between eras in any sport very, very difficult. But I find it hypocritical that those fans (and maybe you aren't one of them) that maintain that only FCS Champions are true college football "National Champions" because of the playoff system, and then on the other hand tout their own school's championships won "on paper."

I think it's very fair and reasonable to recognize that championships earned by MEDIA POLLING (prior to 1973) should be taken in a different perspective than those won in a PLAYOFF FORMAT. Other than the number of scholarships, the playoff system has been the most significant difference between FCS and FBS football - and it is possibly the one attributes of FCS that is most cherished by fans. Winning playoff championships is what DEFINES this level of football for nearly the last 40 years.

[89Hen]

I think it's very fair and reasonable to recognize that championships earned by MEDIA POLLING (prior to 1973) should be taken in a different perspective than those won in a PLAYOFF FORMAT. Other than the number of scholarships, the playoff system has been the most significant difference between FCS and FBS football - and it is possibly the one attributes of FCS that is most cherished by fans. Winning playoff championships is what DEFINES this level of football for nearly the last 40 years.

I think the point was, if you are going to say a playoff champ is better, you would have to also say a playoff champ from a larger field is better than one from a smaller field. EWU is the only DI champ from a 20 team field and we can almost dismiss early playoff championships as they were from a 4 team field from a very small pool of teams.

[aceinthehole]

I think it's very fair and reasonable to recognize that championships earned by MEDIA POLLING (prior to 1973) should be taken in a different perspective than those won in a PLAYOFF FORMAT. Other than the number of scholarships, the playoff system has been the most significant difference between FCS and FBS football - and it is possibly the one attributes of FCS that is most cherished by fans. Winning playoff championships is what DEFINES this level of football for nearly the last 40 years.

I think the point was, if you are going to say a playoff champ is better, you would have to also say a playoff champ from a larger field is better than one from a smaller field. EWU is the only DI champ from a 20 team field and we can almost dismiss early playoff championships as they were from a 4 team field from a very small pool of teams.

I never said one was "better" (although most FCS fans would probably argue a playoff format is ALWAYS better than a poll or computer).

Listen, you and others can use whatever logic you want, but the fact of the matter is a there HUGE DIFFERENCE between a POLL and PLAYOFFS. Of course the size of the playoff field is certainly a factor of difficulty in winning the playoffs, but that variation over time is not inconsistent with the manner (playoffs) in which the championship is determined during that period.

Determining a champion by a vote of media members (pre 1973) is an entirely different METHOD of determining a National Champion. If you don't wish to acknowledge this distinction, it's certainly your choice, but your logic of comparing the quality/size of the playoff pool over the years is not on point at all.

[JBB]

Thats simply not correct. A lot of people agree with the UD fans. Count NDSU fans among them.

Christ, you're stupid. At least Delaware's D-II titles were won when D-II was the next level down from D-I, whereas YOUR D-II titles were won when it was TWO levels down from D-I. Not even comparable, Einstein.

what a dipshit AZGrisFan is. you are the definition of stupid, and probably drunk too.

How else could you come off looking so dumb? Seriously AZGriz, you are the dumbest, loudest and most embarrassing poster in this thread so, do you think you are a total embarrassment to all of the Griz fans or just yourself?

NDSU National Championships
1965
1968
1969
1983
1085
1086
1988
1990

[89Hen]

championships earned by MEDIA POLLING (prior to 1973) should be taken in a different perspective than those won in a PLAYOFF FORMAT.

I never said one was "better" (although most FCS fans would probably argue a playoff format is ALWAYS better than a poll or computer).

That was how I read it.

[89Hen]

NDSU National Championships
1085
1086

Those must have been tough games.

[AZGrizFan]

Christ, you're stupid. At least Delaware's D-II titles were won when D-II was the next level down from D-I, whereas YOUR D-II titles were won when it was TWO levels down from D-I. Not even comparable, Einstein.

what a dipshit AZGrisFan is. you are the definition of stupid, and probably drunk too.

How else could you come off looking so dumb? Seriously AZGriz, you are the dumbest, loudest and most embarrassing poster in this thread so, do you think you are a total embarrassment to all of the Griz fans or just yourself?

NDSU National Championships
1965
1968
1969
1983
1085
1086
1988
1990

So, every one since 1977 (5 of the 8) were won 2 levels below the highest level of play. My point exactly. Thanks for helping point out your stupidity.

[JBB]

I think they are an elite program that is fading. They score a 20 on the "Elite Program Registry" and if they dont have some success soon they will drop to a lower score maybe 18 if attendance drops off.

Right now they just make it. The fact we are talking about it is held out as proof they are questionable, but with a 20 they are in. If they have a good season they might go to 22?

[Saint3333]

Yep.

Really? Where did Delaware, Youngstown, UNI, Montana State, Lehigh, Colgate, UMass, Arkansas St, EIU... all come from prior to I-AA?

Nice list. Arkansas St. was Division 1 prior to being 1-AA. Where did Richmond, William & Mary, Nova, Sam Houston, McNeese St., Northern Ill., etc. as well as the entire SoCon and Ivy League come from?

Another good point was raised earlier in that there were four regions of Small College leagues in which the schedule stuck to those areas. Being best in the Northeast and being a true national champion are two different accomplishments.

[93henfan]

Being best in the Northeast and being a true national champion are two different accomplishments.

Totally agree. The wire service championships considered all teams in the country in the voting, ie. they were true national championships.

Again, we are totally in agreement with you. Not sure why you keep going around in circles.

Like we've all said many many times, Delaware has five championships at the level just under the big boys (as opposed to App State's three) as well as one D-2 championship that was earned during a time when D-2 was arguably better than a tiny, fledgling I-AA. We realize the aspect that is causing you the most heartburn.

[SeattleGriz]

In their cheating days, sure, but now, no.

They have scheduled themselves out of the playoffs too many years in a row to be relevant.

[Saint3333]

Nope Small College Championships are not equal to FCS championships.

I know I can't out post you guys, got to get back to life. Try it.

[89Hen]

Really? Where did Delaware, Youngstown, UNI, Montana State, Lehigh, Colgate, UMass, Arkansas St, EIU... all come from prior to I-AA?

Nice list. Arkansas St. was Division 1 prior to being 1-AA. Where did Richmond, William & Mary, Nova, Sam Houston, McNeese St., Northern Ill., etc. as well as the entire SoCon and Ivy League come from?

ArkSt... I think I was going for Texas State (along with Sam Houston and SFA).

Yes some teams came from I-A to I-AA in the years following the creation of I-AA, but just as many important programs came from D2. You made a claim that I-AA came from I-A and D2 came from Small College. That's simply not true.

[urmite]

@89hen,

That's why there is some confusion. Maybe 30-35% of I-AA came from Division I and 70-75% from Division II, so therefore Small College/"old" Division II doesn't equal current FCS but was the closest thing available at the time.

So the debate becomes were there enough teams playing outside of Small College who are now FCS to make Small College Championships substantially different from I-AA/FCS since 1982?