Culture Wars

[Winterborn]

Why do you think that is?

It's topics like this that really screw with everyone's idea that i'm a librul or something - Schools have zero business in telling anyone child, K-6, about sex, gender, queerness, etc...If my 7 year old wants to know why 2 women are kissing she can ask me (she's "understands" gay people. I have a lesbian aunt so homosexuality isn't exactly foreign to her). The avg age of puberty aligns with grades 6-8 and that is the acceptable time, as it has been for generations, to teach sexual education. That's it.

Sexual Education is about biology, how babies are made and how to have safe sex (though abstinence should also be equally taught). Gender fluidity, trans, etc... - if to be taught at all should be taught that people that feel that way should talk to a parent, friend or counselor but regardless are humans and are deserving of respect.

Well you still have some pockets of liberalism.

But I agree with both your paragraphs on this topic. Schools should teach the biological portion and leave up to the parents the rest.

[Ibanez]

It's topics like this that really screw with everyone's idea that i'm a librul or something - Schools have zero business in telling anyone child, K-6, about sex, gender, queerness, etc...If my 7 year old wants to know why 2 women are kissing she can ask me (she's "understands" gay people. I have a lesbian aunt so homosexuality isn't exactly foreign to her). The avg age of puberty aligns with grades 6-8 and that is the acceptable time, as it has been for generations, to teach sexual education. That's it.

Sexual Education is about biology, how babies are made and how to have safe sex (though abstinence should also be equally taught). Gender fluidity, trans, etc... - if to be taught at all should be taught that people that feel that way should talk to a parent, friend or counselor but regardless are humans and are deserving of respect.

Well you still have some pockets of liberalism.

But I agree with both your paragraphs on this topic. Schools should teach the biological portion and leave up to the parents the rest.

Of course. I'm all for gay marriage, legalizing weed. Shoot - i'm even aware of my hypocritical stance on pro-life but think abortion is a women's health issue and it should be legal.

[kalm]

1). Not all parents are like you.

2). Not everyone has a lesbian aunt.

3). Part of the problem is semantic. Perhaps gender identity ed and biological sex ed are being conflated? What’s actually being taught and at what age, and how? And I’m not talking about random accusatory tweets. There’s a big difference between pornhub and teaching that people and relationships can be different. I think this is what UNI88 is getting at in part.

You are correct but I also agree with Ibanez in regard to actually teaching sex ed to primary school students.

Ibanez, should your aunt be allowed to read a book to your daughter's class? Should a father who is a transvestite? Should your daughter's classroom or school library have books with non-traditional families (2 dads, 2 moms, etc.) on the shelves? Some would argue that allowing those things is grooming. I don't think it's that straightforward, showing examples of people with different relationships is not automatically grooming (propaganda/indoctrination).

Only projecting groomers think it’s grooming.

[Winterborn]

Ibanez, should your aunt be allowed to read a book to your daughter's class? Should a father who is a transvestite? Should your daughter's classroom or school library have books with non-traditional families (2 dads, 2 moms, etc.) on the shelves? Some would argue that allowing those things is grooming. I don't think it's that straightforward, showing examples of people with different relationships is not automatically grooming (propaganda/indoctrination).

The issue (and I think you are correct on this) is the surrounding situation to the event. It is not black and white like both sides have made it out to be.

For a hypothetical example: A transvestite or traditional couple come in to read a story that has characters that reflect their particular beliefs.
If it was my kids in school, I would want to be notified ahead of time so I can be prepared for any questions they may have (and let the kids know what will be going on during class and to come to me with any questions) and I would expect that they would be introduced like any other person. Here is Jane/Jon Doe and they are going to read the class a story today. There is no expounding of who they are outside of the most basic information (example they are a firefighter from the local fire hall). The story is read, if any questions come up concerning their particular beliefs, the children are told to ask their parent(s) when they get home.

All sides are treated equal and no extra information that does not pertain to the reading is added. I will add the reading cannot be blatant (I know subjective but if a main parent in the story could be swapped for any other parent (traditional/non-traditional) it is neutral) about certain lifestyles either. I have ran across some "kids" books that should not be read to any kid under ten and they were for 5-6 year olds. My cousin is a Elementary teacher and there are many opportunities from the teacher side to interject their own beliefs. I understand that we all feel passionate about certain topics (I would have a hard time not talking about farming/ranching practices) but the classroom is not the place for that today unfortunately. For me personally if I was teaching and started talking about some ranching practices that are very common and humane, and there was a child that had PETA parents in the class, I know I would get a reprimand.

As a teacher one has the responsibility to respect all sides, even if you as a teacher disagree with them. One of my best speech professors was a flaming feminist and outside of college was hardcore against men/patriarchy. But you would never know it in the classroom or on campus. She was even handed in all her dealings with her students. The issue is today, there are some teachers that do not respect that responsibility and are basically preachers. That there is where the trouble is IMHO.

[Winterborn]

Well you still have some pockets of liberalism.

But I agree with both your paragraphs on this topic. Schools should teach the biological portion and leave up to the parents the rest.

Of course. I'm all for gay marriage, legalizing weed. Shoot - i'm even aware of my hypocritical stance on pro-life but think abortion is a women's health issue and it should be legal.

Every time we have a beer I come to the realization that outside a couple items (abortion is one that comes to mind) we are eerily similar. I only give certain people a hard time because I enjoy (and respect) their positions.

And I have a few hypocritical stances myself. And shockingly enough nobody on here has called me out on them yet.

[Ibanez]

1). Not all parents are like you.

2). Not everyone has a lesbian aunt.

3). Part of the problem is semantic. Perhaps gender identity ed and biological sex ed are being conflated? What’s actually being taught and at what age, and how? And I’m not talking about random accusatory tweets. There’s a big difference between pornhub and teaching that people and relationships can be different. I think this is what UNI88 is getting at in part.

You are correct but I also agree with Ibanez in regard to actually teaching sex ed to primary school students.

Ibanez, should your aunt be allowed to read a book to your daughter's class? Should a father who is a transvestite? Should your daughter's classroom or school library have books with non-traditional families (2 dads, 2 moms, etc.) on the shelves? Some would argue that allowing those things is grooming. I don't think it's that straightforward, showing examples of people with different relationships is not automatically grooming (propaganda/indoctrination).

ANY PARENT should be able to read to their children's class and the only criteria should be their ability to read and their desire to be part of their childs lives. And yes, i'm fine with the library having a book about My Two Dads (hell, even the TV Show ). I think when you get into trans and gender fluidity, you're confusing more kids and to be honest 1st graders won't understand it. They'll understand 2 moms or 2 dads easier than Daddy has a penis, but wants to cut off, turn it into a vagina, grow breasts and wear dresses.

Their sexual habits or if they feel like a woman should NOT be a factor, a concern, an after thought, etc...

[Ibanez]

Of course. I'm all for gay marriage, legalizing weed. Shoot - i'm even aware of my hypocritical stance on pro-life but think abortion is a women's health issue and it should be legal.

Every time we have a beer I come to the realization that outside a couple items (abortion is one that comes to mind) we are eerily similar. I only give certain people a hard time because I enjoy (and respect) their positions.

And I have a few hypocritical stances myself. And shockingly enough nobody on here has called me out on them yet.

Let's be honest - we are humans. We're going to be hypocritical about things. Let's just be honest about them and own it. I learned long ago to accept that fact. It's human nature.

Also - the fact that you and I can have a difference of opinion on something like abortion and STILL be cordial and friendly is, sadly, becoming more and more uncommon.

[Winterborn]

Every time we have a beer I come to the realization that outside a couple items (abortion is one that comes to mind) we are eerily similar. I only give certain people a hard time because I enjoy (and respect) their positions.

And I have a few hypocritical stances myself. And shockingly enough nobody on here has called me out on them yet.

Let's be honest - we are humans. We're going to be hypocritical about things. Let's just be honest about them and own it. I learned long ago to accept that fact. It's human nature.

Also - the fact that you and I can have a difference of opinion on something like abortion and STILL be cordial and friendly is, sadly, becoming more and more uncommon.

Exactly. And that self-honesty is maybe the key for me on who I can cordially disagree with and still get along with vs. those that I just want to be as contrary as possible with.

There has been many times in my life that I have taken a position, defended it like the Alamo and had somebody else come up to me afterwards and ask if I had ever thought of it this way (different than just what I argued for). Which has forced me to re-think what I believe.

The main one that pops in my mind is abortion. I used to have a hard-line stance on the pro-life side, then I moderated to let the states decide what they want and it can range from the it is illegal in all forms to it is legal in all forms. After a very passionate debate with my younger brother (the libertarian one), I have backed off that position some.

And your last statement is the real truth that is lost in all this back and forth politically. Civility is the part of the glue that holds society together.

[Ibanez]

Let's be honest - we are humans. We're going to be hypocritical about things. Let's just be honest about them and own it. I learned long ago to accept that fact. It's human nature.

Also - the fact that you and I can have a difference of opinion on something like abortion and STILL be cordial and friendly is, sadly, becoming more and more uncommon.

Exactly. And that self-honesty is maybe the key for me on who I can cordially disagree with and still get along with vs. those that I just want to be as contrary as possible with.

There has been many times in my life that I have taken a position, defended it like the Alamo and had somebody else come up to me afterwards and ask if I had ever thought of it this way (different than just what I argued for). Which has forced me to re-think what I believe.

The main one that pops in my mind is abortion. I used to have a hard-line stance on the pro-life side, then I moderated to let the states decide what they want and it can range from the it is illegal in all forms to it is legal in all forms. After a very passionate debate with my younger brother (the libertarian one), I have backed off that position some.

And your last statement is the real truth that is lost in all this back and forth politically. Civility is the part of the glue that holds society together.

We're the same way. My wife hates that I will argue with someone, tooth and nail, for a position that I personally don't believe in. Sometimes it's just to an ass, sometimes it's to better understand/strengthen my own point of view.

[AZGrizFan]

Exactly. And that self-honesty is maybe the key for me on who I can cordially disagree with and still get along with vs. those that I just want to be as contrary as possible with.

There has been many times in my life that I have taken a position, defended it like the Alamo and had somebody else come up to me afterwards and ask if I had ever thought of it this way (different than just what I argued for). Which has forced me to re-think what I believe.

The main one that pops in my mind is abortion. I used to have a hard-line stance on the pro-life side, then I moderated to let the states decide what they want and it can range from the it is illegal in all forms to it is legal in all forms. After a very passionate debate with my younger brother (the libertarian one), I have backed off that position some.

And your last statement is the real truth that is lost in all this back and forth politically. Civility is the part of the glue that holds society together.

We're the same way. My wife hates that I will argue with someone, tooth and nail, for a position that I personally don't believe in. Sometimes it's just to an ass, sometimes it's to better understand/strengthen my own point of view.

There have been a number of positions/issues I’ve changed because of dialogue on this site.

Or maybe it was just the process of me realizing i was a libertarian and not a Republican…

[Winterborn]

Exactly. And that self-honesty is maybe the key for me on who I can cordially disagree with and still get along with vs. those that I just want to be as contrary as possible with.

There has been many times in my life that I have taken a position, defended it like the Alamo and had somebody else come up to me afterwards and ask if I had ever thought of it this way (different than just what I argued for). Which has forced me to re-think what I believe.

The main one that pops in my mind is abortion. I used to have a hard-line stance on the pro-life side, then I moderated to let the states decide what they want and it can range from the it is illegal in all forms to it is legal in all forms. After a very passionate debate with my younger brother (the libertarian one), I have backed off that position some.

And your last statement is the real truth that is lost in all this back and forth politically. Civility is the part of the glue that holds society together.

We're the same way. My wife hates that I will argue with someone, tooth and nail, for a position that I personally don't believe in. Sometimes it's just to an ass, sometimes it's to better understand/strengthen my own point of view.

Since we are speaking honestly here. Mine are mostly because I enjoy being an ass to a certain segment of people. Sometimes I just can't help myself from pointing out their mental dichotomy/hypocrisy, and I usually do it because there is an audience and while I know there is no chance of changing their mind, I might provoke a different line of thinking in somebody listening.

[Winterborn]

We're the same way. My wife hates that I will argue with someone, tooth and nail, for a position that I personally don't believe in. Sometimes it's just to an ass, sometimes it's to better understand/strengthen my own point of view.

There have been a number of positions/issues I’ve changed because of dialogue on this site.

Or maybe it was just the process of me realizing i was a libertarian and not a Republican…

This in a nut shell. I grew up thinking I was a republican but doing my own research and chats with a brother of mine, made me realize I was not.

This site helped.

[BDKJMU]

Well you still have some pockets of liberalism.

But I agree with both your paragraphs on this topic. Schools should teach the biological portion and leave up to the parents the rest.

Of course. I'm all for gay marriage, legalizing weed. Shoot - i'm even aware of my hypocritical stance on pro-life but think abortion is a women's health issue and it should be legal.

Legal according to whom? Fed or state? Heck, on the act of abortion I am probably about in the center. The only thing right about my stance on it is it being a states’ rights issue for the simple fact its not addressed in the Constitution (nor is a right to privacy)/10 Amendment.

I agree it should be legal (with certain restrictions below).
The restrictions IMHOP:
-Parental notification/permission for minors for all medical surgeries.
-No partial birth.
-No taxpayer funding of abortion.

Outisde of that IMHOP should remain legal for the 1st 5 months or so (until the fetus is viable), and the only exception after that when the woman’s LIFE (not ‘health’) was in danger.

[UNI88]

Right-wing 'groomer' attacks target suicide prevention service for LGBTQ youth

“The Trevor Project exists to end the public health crisis of suicide among LGBTQ young people — a mission that transcends political lines and cultural divides,” a spokesperson for the organization said in a statement to Yahoo News. “We estimate that more than 1.8 million LGBTQ youth seriously consider suicide each year in the U.S., and our counselors hear from youth every day who feel like they have nowhere to turn.”

The spokesperson added, “The resurgence of anti-LGBTQ attacks that seek to smear adults, including parents, teachers, counselors and doctors, who affirm and support LGBTQ youth, is especially dangerous, as it diverts attention away from the very real, life-threatening issues of child abuse and sexual assault.”

According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI), “The LGBTQI population is at a higher risk than the heterosexual, cisgender population for suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts.” A 2017 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that high school students who identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual are more than four times as likely than their heterosexual peers to have attempted suicide.

Transgender teens are at even greater risk. According to a 2020 survey published by the Journal of Adolescent Health, “Transgender and nonbinary youth were at increased risk of experiencing depressed mood, seriously considering suicide, and attempting suicide compared with cisgender lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, and questioning youth.”

Shhh! Don't talk about how you identify or who you're attracted to. Bury it down deep and pretend you fit in. We don't care if that causes depression and possibly suicide. Protecting our own insecurities is more important than your life.

[SDHornet]

Bingo. This isn't a controversial thing, you are either pro-groomer or not. It's black and white. Now the age at which these conversations may be debatable, but no doubt elementary school aged kids is way to young. Anyone pushing/supporting sexual discussions with kids of this age are groomers. Not hard to understand.

Elementary school goes to 5th or 6th grade depending on the school. That means 12 and 13 year olds. Are you saying that 12 and 13 is too young to be having discussions about sexual education?

Yes. IMO middle school is about where sex ed starts...but remember we're not talking the sex ed we had. We're talking about this gender dysphoria and trans bullshit. Totally different ball game.

[SDHornet]

Why do you think that is?

It's topics like this that really screw with everyone's idea that i'm a librul or something - Schools have zero business in telling anyone child, K-6, about sex, gender, queerness, etc...If my 7 year old wants to know why 2 women are kissing she can ask me (she's "understands" gay people. I have a lesbian aunt so homosexuality isn't exactly foreign to her). The avg age of puberty aligns with grades 6-8 and that is the acceptable time, as it has been for generations, to teach sexual education. That's it.

Sexual Education is about biology, how babies are made and how to have safe sex (though abstinence should also be equally taught). Gender fluidity, trans, etc... - if to be taught at all should be taught that people that feel that way should talk to a parent, friend or counselor but regardless are humans and are deserving of respect.

Exactly.

[Ibanez]

Of course. I'm all for gay marriage, legalizing weed. Shoot - i'm even aware of my hypocritical stance on pro-life but think abortion is a women's health issue and it should be legal.

Legal according to whom? Fed or state? Heck, on the act of abortion I am probably about in the center. The only thing right about my stance on it is it being a states’ rights issue for the simple fact its not addressed in the Constitution (nor is a right to privacy)/10 Amendment.

I agree it should be legal (with certain restrictions below).
The restrictions IMHOP:
-Parental notification/permission for minors for all medical surgeries.
-No partial birth.
-No taxpayer funding of abortion.

Outisde of that IMHOP should remain legal for the 1st 5 months or so (until the fetus is viable), and the only exception after that when the woman’s LIFE (not ‘health’) was in danger.

Federally legal. And i'm fine with your restrictions. No 3rd trimester abortions.

The SC has said the right to travel is an unenumerated rate. Should that be left of to the states? I understand not trampling on states rights but an issue like womens health and the life of children might just trump that.

[Winterborn]

Legal according to whom? Fed or state? Heck, on the act of abortion I am probably about in the center. The only thing right about my stance on it is it being a states’ rights issue for the simple fact its not addressed in the Constitution (nor is a right to privacy)/10 Amendment.

I agree it should be legal (with certain restrictions below).
The restrictions IMHOP:
-Parental notification/permission for minors for all medical surgeries.
-No partial birth.
-No taxpayer funding of abortion.

Outisde of that IMHOP should remain legal for the 1st 5 months or so (until the fetus is viable), and the only exception after that when the woman’s LIFE (not ‘health’) was in danger.

Federally legal. And i'm fine with your restrictions. No 3rd trimester abortions.

The SC has said the right to travel is an unenumerated rate. Should that be left of to the states? I understand not trampling on states rights but an issue like womens health and the life of children might just trump that.

Since the states are about even on both sides, that is not going to happen anytime soon.

[kalm]

Federally legal. And i'm fine with your restrictions. No 3rd trimester abortions.

The SC has said the right to travel is an unenumerated rate. Should that be left of to the states? I understand not trampling on states rights but an issue like womens health and the life of children might just trump that.

Since the states are about even on both sides, that is not going to happen anytime soon.

It would also require the likes of Schumer and Pelosi to play tough. That will not happen.

[CAA Flagship]

There have been a number of positions/issues I’ve changed because of dialogue on this site.

Or maybe it was just the process of me realizing i was a libertarian and not a Republican…

This in a nut shell. I grew up thinking I was a republican but doing my own research and chats with a brother of mine, made me realize I was not.

This site helped.

You guys aren't libertarians either. You are just closer to libertarian. Don't fall into the -ism trap that kalm loves. No rational thinking person fits 100% into any one category of anything. There are not too many macro things in this world that are "black or white". They are all a sum of micro blacks and whites that result in gray. And there are very few that might match that exact combination of micros.

[kalm]

This in a nut shell. I grew up thinking I was a republican but doing my own research and chats with a brother of mine, made me realize I was not.

This site helped.

You guys aren't libertarians either. You are just closer to libertarian. Don't fall into the -ism trap that kalm loves. No rational thinking person fits 100% into any one category of anything. There are not too many macro things in this world that are "black or white". They are all a sum of micro blacks and whites that result in gray. And there are very few that might match that exact combination of micros.

Hey! You sound like Mrs. Kalm. I agree with you. Don’t hate the player!

[UNI88]

This in a nut shell. I grew up thinking I was a republican but doing my own research and chats with a brother of mine, made me realize I was not.

This site helped.

You guys aren't libertarians either. You are just closer to libertarian. Don't fall into the -ism trap that kalm loves. No rational thinking person fits 100% into any one category of anything. There are not too many macro things in this world that are "black or white". They are all a sum of micro blacks and whites that result in gray. And there are very few that might match that exact combination of micros.

That is why I call myself a small L libertarian and have since Clinton was POTUS.

[CAA Flagship]

You guys aren't libertarians either. You are just closer to libertarian. Don't fall into the -ism trap that kalm loves. No rational thinking person fits 100% into any one category of anything. There are not too many macro things in this world that are "black or white". They are all a sum of micro blacks and whites that result in gray. And there are very few that might match that exact combination of micros.

Hey! You sound like Mrs. Kalm. I agree with you. Don’t hate the player!

I hate the game, not the player. But I'm thinking of trading you.

[UNI88]

Hey! You sound like Mrs. Kalm. I agree with you. Don’t hate the player!

I hate the game, not the player. But I'm thinking of trading you.

I'll give you an old tic tac, a paperclip and a broker rubber band for Kalm.

[CAA Flagship]

I hate the game, not the player. But I'm thinking of trading you.

I'll give you an old tic tac, a paperclip and a broker rubber band for Kalm.

Throw in a warm six pack and it's a deal.