"It's the Fault of the All-Powerful Left"

[CID1990]

You don't know much about libertarians if you are ranking them in the solid right. Libertarians are all over the map. I happen to know this.....

From the economic standpoint, they should be most conservative but plenty aren't (Bill Maher). The misconception with the terms "conservative, liberal, and progressive" is that progressive and liberal are seen as synonymous which in fact they are not.

A progressive is someone who wants social change, a liberal wants more power in the Government , a conservative wants less government or little government. technically you could say Republicans are socially liberal in the sense that they wish to regulate people's lives by giving the government more power to do that (see sodomy laws, etc)

so I would categorize it as
Democrats--social progressives, economic liberals
Republicans--technically social liberals (but you can call it conservative), economic conservatives
Libertarians--social conservatives (by means of less government) and economic conservatives

IMO your not a libertarian if your social views line up with the Republicans or your economic views line up with the Democrats...but that's just my

Libertarians could be considered socially conservative in terms of what they think the government should regulate, but the libertarian belief system sometimes places them in bed with liberals. Generally they think that the government should stay out of personal decisions, so abortion and drug use, etc are all off limits to the government in the eyes of a hardcore libertarian. In that respect, the views of libertarians stack up more closely with the left.

Libertarians are not fiscally conservative in and of itself, rather they support a system of government that would automatically be fiscally conservative. Libertarians do not necessarily care how much money the government spends as long as the government is not telling people what they can and cannot do, how they should live their lives. Social conservatives in my mind are as bad as social liberals in that they want the government to enforce their ideas of how people should behave. Libertarians are completely opposed to this.

I have consistently voted Libertarian since I started voting, and I have generally been familiar with the candidates. You will usually find the anti-income tax folks in that group, as well. They certainly do have many characteristics of conservatives, but generally conservatives want government to dictate morality and that is where there is a big difference between the conservatives and libertarians.

[Ivytalk]

From the economic standpoint, they should be most conservative but plenty aren't (Bill Maher). The misconception with the terms "conservative, liberal, and progressive" is that progressive and liberal are seen as synonymous which in fact they are not.

A progressive is someone who wants social change, a liberal wants more power in the Government , a conservative wants less government or little government. technically you could say Republicans are socially liberal in the sense that they wish to regulate people's lives by giving the government more power to do that (see sodomy laws, etc)

so I would categorize it as
Democrats--social progressives, economic liberals
Republicans--technically social liberals (but you can call it conservative), economic conservatives
Libertarians--social conservatives (by means of less government) and economic conservatives

IMO your not a libertarian if your social views line up with the Republicans or your economic views line up with the Democrats...but that's just my

Libertarians could be considered socially conservative in terms of what they think the government should regulate, but the libertarian belief system sometimes places them in bed with liberals. Generally they think that the government should stay out of personal decisions, so abortion and drug use, etc are all off limits to the government in the eyes of a hardcore libertarian. In that respect, the views of libertarians stack up more closely with the left.

Libertarians are not fiscally conservative in and of itself, rather they support a system of government that would automatically be fiscally conservative. Libertarians do not necessarily care how much money the government spends as long as the government is not telling people what they can and cannot do, how they should live their lives. Social conservatives in my mind are as bad as social liberals in that they want the government to enforce their ideas of how people should behave. Libertarians are completely opposed to this.

I have consistently voted Libertarian since I started voting, and I have generally been familiar with the candidates. You will usually find the anti-income tax folks in that group, as well. They certainly do have many characteristics of conservatives, but generally conservatives want government to dictate morality and that is where there is a big difference between the conservatives and libertarians.

If only Libertarians had a coherent foreign policy!

[CID1990]

Libertarians could be considered socially conservative in terms of what they think the government should regulate, but the libertarian belief system sometimes places them in bed with liberals. Generally they think that the government should stay out of personal decisions, so abortion and drug use, etc are all off limits to the government in the eyes of a hardcore libertarian. In that respect, the views of libertarians stack up more closely with the left.

Libertarians are not fiscally conservative in and of itself, rather they support a system of government that would automatically be fiscally conservative. Libertarians do not necessarily care how much money the government spends as long as the government is not telling people what they can and cannot do, how they should live their lives. Social conservatives in my mind are as bad as social liberals in that they want the government to enforce their ideas of how people should behave. Libertarians are completely opposed to this.

I have consistently voted Libertarian since I started voting, and I have generally been familiar with the candidates. You will usually find the anti-income tax folks in that group, as well. They certainly do have many characteristics of conservatives, but generally conservatives want government to dictate morality and that is where there is a big difference between the conservatives and libertarians.

If only Libertarians had a coherent foreign policy!

Ah, but they do Glasshoppa! They do!

U.S. foreign policy under libertarians would be very simple.

1. Keep the military strong enough to prevent other countries from imposing their will on our domestic affairs.

2. A moderate tariff.

That's about it.

[houndawg]

The funny thing about Ron Paul is that by no means is he progressive in social terms, but dog gone it he doesn't believe in shoving values down people's throat so I would vote for him.

Exactly, true sense of liberty. I don't have to agree with what you do, but I have no more right to tell you how to live than you have to tell me how to live. Maximum personal freedom with limited government intrusion is the best way to maximize liberty.

Sounds good on paper, but the sad truth is that government intrusion can't be limited. the pace of intrusion can be slowed down, but not limited.

[houndawg]

If only Libertarians had a coherent foreign policy!

Ah, but they do Glasshoppa! They do!

U.S. foreign policy under libertarians would be very simple.

1. Keep the military strong enough to prevent other countries from imposing their will on our domestic affairs.

2. A moderate tariff.

That's about it.

If Obama would have waited on health care in favor of a crash program to minimize our reliance on mid-east oil, we would be now taking the first steps to accomplishing point #1.

[AZGrizFan]

I once had a long talk with HIU93...and the subject was blacks support for the Democratic Party...

He's black (we had the conversation over beer, and I noticed this fact)...and I asked him straight up...

"What have the democrats done for blacks to win this support???"

He acknowledged Democrats have not done much...but, in his words, "At least the democrats talk the talk...they make promises...Republicans just ignore blacks..."

Interesting. I know 93 doesn't speak for an entire race, but I find it interesting that he'd rather be lied to than ignored.

[AZGrizFan]

Ah, but they do Glasshoppa! They do!

U.S. foreign policy under libertarians would be very simple.

1. Keep the military strong enough to prevent other countries from imposing their will on our domestic affairs.

2. A moderate tariff.

That's about it.

If Obama would have waited on health care in favor of a crash program to minimize our reliance on mid-east oil, we would be now taking the first steps to accomplishing point #1.

Correct. Obama picked the 4th or 5th biggest "problem" in America to tackle first---BIG mistake. But then, they (the donk leadership) figured they'd better get while the gettin' was good, with a supermajority and all...now was the time to pass their political wet dream. How's that workin' for them?

[Col Hogan]

I once had a long talk with HIU93...and the subject was blacks support for the Democratic Party...

He's black (we had the conversation over beer, and I noticed this fact)...and I asked him straight up...

"What have the democrats done for blacks to win this support???"

He acknowledged Democrats have not done much...but, in his words, "At least the democrats talk the talk...they make promises...Republicans just ignore blacks..."

Interesting. I know 93 doesn't speak for an entire race, but I find it interesting that he'd rather be lied to than ignored.

I think as a conservative you forget that the libs work on "feelings"...and I assume the feeling that something might happen that the dems give (Hope) is better than the reality that being ignored means nothing will happen...

[AZGrizFan]

Interesting. I know 93 doesn't speak for an entire race, but I find it interesting that he'd rather be lied to than ignored.

I think as a conservative you forget that the libs work on "feelings"...and I assume the feeling that something might happen that the dems give (Hope) is better than the reality that being ignored means nothing will happen...

The definition of insanity: Repeating the same action over and over, and expecting a different result.

[Skjellyfetti]

so I would categorize it as
Democrats--social progressives, economic liberals
Republicans--technically social liberals (but you can call it conservative), economic conservatives
Libertarians--social conservatives (by means of less government) and economic conservatives

Here's how I'd do it:

Democrats: socially liberal, fiscally liberal
Republicans: socially conservative, fiscally conservative
Libertarians: socially liberal, fiscally conservative

[native]

If only Libertarians had a coherent foreign policy!

Ah, but they do Glasshoppa! They do!

U.S. foreign policy under libertarians would be very simple.

1. Keep the military strong enough to prevent other countries from imposing their will on our domestic affairs.

2. A moderate tariff.

That's about it.

Absolutely! I would add that we need sufficient maritime military strength to protect and ensure free trade and the safety and security of Americans doing business and charity abroad. In the long term, this would be the best path for the survival, prosperity and liberty of the citizens of the United States.

[AZGrizFan]

so I would categorize it as
Democrats--social progressives, economic liberals
Republicans--technically social liberals (but you can call it conservative), economic conservatives
Libertarians--social conservatives (by means of less government) and economic conservatives

Here's how I'd do it:

Democrats: socially liberal, fiscally liberal
Republicans: socially conservative, fiscally conservative
Libertarians: socially liberal, fiscally conservative

Agreed 100%. It was ASUMountaineer who first explained this nuance to me, and it's what made me realize I'm actually a Libertarian. (but one who votes Republican usually because I place more value on the fiscal side than the social side).

[youngterrier]

so I would categorize it as
Democrats--social progressives, economic liberals
Republicans--technically social liberals (but you can call it conservative), economic conservatives
Libertarians--social conservatives (by means of less government) and economic conservatives

Here's how I'd do it:

Democrats: socially liberal, fiscally liberal
Republicans: socially conservative, fiscally conservative
Libertarians: socially liberal, fiscally conservative

by today,s standards yes but we really don't properly use our definitions.

[Skjellyfetti]

Agreed 100%. It was ASUMountaineer who first explained this nuance to me, and it's what made me realize I'm actually a Libertarian. (but one who votes Republican usually because I place more value on the fiscal side than the social side).

Interesting. I'm kinda the same... but, usually vote Democratic because I place more value on social side than fiscal side.

[AZGrizFan]

Agreed 100%. It was ASUMountaineer who first explained this nuance to me, and it's what made me realize I'm actually a Libertarian. (but one who votes Republican usually because I place more value on the fiscal side than the social side).

Interesting. I'm kinda the same... but, usually vote Democratic because I place more value on social side than fiscal side.

We're really not that different, you and I....

edit: Where I see the conflict is how can you be "pro-social programs" and "pro-small government" at the same time? Those two seem, for the most part, mutually exclusive to me. And I don't think many true libertarians would argue that they believe in smaller, leaner government.

[kalm]

Here's how I'd do it:

Democrats: socially liberal, fiscally liberal
Republicans: socially conservative, fiscally conservative
Libertarians: socially liberal, fiscally conservative

Agreed 100%. It was ASUMountaineer who first explained this nuance to me, and it's what made me realize I'm actually a Libertarian. (but one who votes Republican usually because I place more value on the fiscal side than the social side).

Don't fall for it Z.

Libertarianism on the surface is very enticing - I mean who in their right mind doesn't consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

But It's like a really nice piece of ham at a fundies church picnic. The sun warms your face, the food is good, the people real nice, so you think...yeah I could hang. Then you delve a little deeper and discover how impractical and bat-shit crazy they really are.

[AZGrizFan]

Agreed 100%. It was ASUMountaineer who first explained this nuance to me, and it's what made me realize I'm actually a Libertarian. (but one who votes Republican usually because I place more value on the fiscal side than the social side).

Don't fall for it Z.

Libertarianism on the surface is very enticing - I mean who in their right mind doesn't consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

But It's like a really nice piece of ham at a fundies church picnic. The sun warms your face, the food is good, the people real nice, so you think...yeah I could hang. Then you delve a little deeper and discover how impractical and bat-shit crazy they really are.

I tie myself more to the socially moderate, fiscally conservative labels than I do the "Libertarian" label.

[Skjellyfetti]

But It's like a really nice piece of ham at a fundies church picnic. The sun warms your face, the food is good, the people real nice, so you think...yeah I could hang. Then you delve a little deeper and discover how impractical and bat-**** crazy they really are.

This is also true. I consider myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative... but, I'm not aware of a single libertarian candidate I could ever vote for (only really familiar with Ron Paul and Barr, though).

[kalm]

Don't fall for it Z.

Libertarianism on the surface is very enticing - I mean who in their right mind doesn't consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

But It's like a really nice piece of ham at a fundies church picnic. The sun warms your face, the food is good, the people real nice, so you think...yeah I could hang. Then you delve a little deeper and discover how impractical and bat-**** crazy they really are.

I tie myself more to the socially moderate, fiscally conservative labels than I do the "Libertarian" label.

Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but me too.

[AZGrizFan]

I tie myself more to the socially moderate, fiscally conservative labels than I do the "Libertarian" label.

Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but me too.

From your writings, I get the sense you're a bit more to the left on social issues than I. I can actually tell you that I'm MORE moderate on the "moral" issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc., and LESS moderate on entitlement programs like welfare, food stamps, universal health care, etc. I am NOT a fan of any "social" program that will result in bloated government and red tape, plus increased taxes.

[kalm]

But It's like a really nice piece of ham at a fundies church picnic. The sun warms your face, the food is good, the people real nice, so you think...yeah I could hang. Then you delve a little deeper and discover how impractical and bat-**** crazy they really are.

This is also true. I consider myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative... but, I'm not aware of a single libertarian candidate I could ever vote for (only really familiar with Ron Paul and Barr, though).

They both have many solid ideas, but like you, I'm not sure if I could vote for either one...yet.

[native]

This is also true. I consider myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative... but, I'm not aware of a single libertarian candidate I could ever vote for (only really familiar with Ron Paul and Barr, though).

They both have many solid ideas, but like you, I'm not sure if I could vote for either one...yet.

New Mexico's former Governor, Republican Gary Johnson, is a libertarian with an excellent track record.

[Skjellyfetti]

New Mexico's former Governor, Republican Gary Johnson, is a libertarian with an excellent track record.

You got a link with his positions? He has a lot of "no stance yet recorded" on ontheissues.org.

[AZGrizFan]

New Mexico's former Governor, Republican Gary Johnson, is a libertarian with an excellent track record.

You got a link with his positions? He has a lot of "no stance yet recorded" on ontheissues.org.

Hmmm....sounds like Mr. Barry "Present" Sortero.

[native]

[... LESS moderate on entitlement programs like welfare, food stamps, universal health care, etc. I am NOT a fan of any "social" program that will result in bloated government and red tape, plus increased taxes.

You are a genuine libertarian, AZGF. Entitlement programs have nothing to do with libertarianism.