Education Debacle of the Decade

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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by native »

Chizzang wrote: ...As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!

:nod:
Damm, Mr. Cleets, you are at grave risk of actually making sense. :notworthy:

Are you sure you don't want to take it back?
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

GannonFan wrote:
CitadelGrad wrote:
I knew someone would make an idiotic response like this, but I expected it to be kalm. I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?
CitadelGrad wrote:Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education
To help you out, I bolded the part you wrote and then bolded the part I wrote. Heck, I even quoted you.
CitadelGrad wrote:
There are certain things we should be able to acknowledge. First, there is not enough emphasis on education in too many households. Most of those households are run by parents who were educated in public schools in the last 20-25 years. That probably isn't just a coincidence. Second, the quality of education in public schools has declined in the last 30 years. The Dept. of Education was established 30 years ago. That probably isn't a coincidence either. The decline may have started before then, but as someone who graduated from high school in 1980, I'm pretty sure the decline has accelerated since I left high school. Third, it isn't possible to point to even one initiative from the Dept. of Education that has come close to reversing the decline in the quality of public school education on a large scale.

The litmus test for measuring the effectiveness of the Dept. of Education is this: Has public education improved in the 30 years since the Dept. of Education was established? If the answer is "no", then what possible reason is there for maintaining it? I don't know anyone who would say that there has been an improvement in the last 30 years. Even the department's own statistics show no improvement.

The Dept. of Education currently employs 4,800 and will have a 2011 budget of $77.8 billions. In 1980 the budget was $13.1 billion and there were 450 employees. During those years test scores in English, math and science have flat-lined even though there is evidence that those tests have been dumbed down. Exactly where is that money going and what are these employees doing? I would think that at $16.2 million per employee, they might be just a little more productive than they are.

Is the answer to the problem even more money? If so, can you tell me why several states that spend among the least per pupil rank among the top ten in test scores while D.C. has the highest per student expenditures but ranks dead last among the states in test scores?

The question remains. Why is there a Dept. of Education?
Hey, I agree, the Federal Dept of Education is not really all that useful in the grand scheme of things. They aren't really responsible for much as education is and has been largely a local affair. But that's the thing, then, I don't see how the federal Dept of Education, which most people will agree has very little to do in terms of cirriculum or teacher work policies, is all of a sudden to blame for the supposed decline of education in America. How can a department that has so little power be so responsible for something like this? I think you can certainly argue that the federal Dept of Education is relatively useless, especially, oddly, where it pertains to education. But I then don't see how that Dept can be seen as the albatross that has dragged down the public education system (if that's actually happened). Get rid of the Dept of Education today and it changes little to nothing in terms of the educational situation in America.
Jesus H. Titty Fucking Christ! There you go again. I didn't say that the DOE has single-handedly brought down public education in America. Did you see the part I wrote about the litmus test? It was, "Has public education improved in the 30 years since the DOE was established"? If the answer is "no" then there is no reason to maintain it. Stop trying to put words into my mouth. I know what I wrote and I'll call that bullshit every time.

My point is that if it isn't helping, then it is hurting public education. If I recall correctly, the average school system receives about 7% of its budget from the federal government, but approximately 60% of paperwork that the average school system generates is mandated by the federal government. Elimination of that 60% would free up resources that could be used more effectively for critical functions.

Again, the DOE's 2011 budget is $77.8 billion. It's pretty clear that money would best be used for deficit reduction or actually helping schools directly rather than being spent on bureaucratic bullshit. Again, $16.2 million per employee. Do you know of a corporation that would allocate $12.6 million of its expenses per employee? That is an astonishingly high number even for organization that generate revenue and attempt to turn profits. The DOE doesn't generate revenue. Where is the accountability for that kind of debacle. The DOE is a useless money pit and should be dismantled immediately.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by HI54UNI »

kalm wrote: The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
False. Studies have proven that good teachers can overcome socio economic issues and poor parenting/home life.
Chizzang wrote:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!

:nod:
Nailed it.

:nod:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

C-grad wrote:
Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?
Gannon responded:
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?
C-grad responded:
I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?
So you're accusing Gannon of attributing to you statements you didn't write by attributing to Gannon statements about what you wrote that he didn't write?

:rofl:

You truly have a dizzying intellect. :notworthy:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

HI54UNI wrote:
kalm wrote: The problem with education is clearly socio-economics/parenting.
False. Studies have proven that good teachers can overcome socio economic issues and poor parenting/home life.
Chizzang wrote:
As the dumbest industrialized nation on Earth - yes - we need to rethink our entire education system...

But "protecting" teachers from the rigors of a competitive environment and not exposing them to the same business climate everybody else is exposed to in corporate America is ridiculous.

Don't believe me: Look how that worked for the U.S. Auto Makers
This is one example where the bible is not the answer - union is not the answer - money is not the answer

A simple understandable competitive environment is the answer...
Start by firing the entire school board management in place at every under achieving high school in America, then let the teachers know - the competition to keep you job starts NOW..!!!

:nod:
Nailed it.

:nod:
I could be mistaken but I believe most school board members get paid about the same as small town mayors - which is nothing. I also think that for the most part they are elected positions so you can't really fire them, you have to vote them out.

I haven't heard of school board management, but if he's referring to school administration, they are not union. So is it the teachers fault, school boards fault, the administrations fault? :coffee:

(For some reason I'm sensing some deception in Chizzang's post.) :nod:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
HI54UNI wrote:
False. Studies have proven that good teachers can overcome socio economic issues and poor parenting/home life.



Nailed it.

:nod:
I could be mistaken but I believe most school board members get paid about the same as small town mayors - which is nothing. I also think that for the most part they are elected positions so you can't really fire them, you have to vote them out.

I haven't heard of school board management, but if he's referring to school administration, they are not union. So is it the teachers fault, school boards fault, the administrations fault? :coffee:

(For some reason I'm sensing some deception in Chizzang's post.) :nod:

we can start by throwing these frauds out on their ear... The American Association of School Administrators

Hi..!!!
we're the AASA and we're responsible for the lowest performing public school system in the industrialized world
can we help you...?



:rofl:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
I could be mistaken but I believe most school board members get paid about the same as small town mayors - which is nothing. I also think that for the most part they are elected positions so you can't really fire them, you have to vote them out.

I haven't heard of school board management, but if he's referring to school administration, they are not union. So is it the teachers fault, school boards fault, the administrations fault? :coffee:

(For some reason I'm sensing some deception in Chizzang's post.) :nod:

we can start by throwing these frauds out on their ear... The American Association of School Administrators

Hi..!!!
we're the AASA and we're responsible for the lowest performing public school system in the industrialized world
can we help you...?



:rofl:
Are they all responsible? What about the ones who are succeeding? Should we throw them out too? Do ya think they might administer in wealthier neighborhoods? :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

we can start by throwing these frauds out on their ear... The American Association of School Administrators

Hi..!!!
we're the AASA and we're responsible for the lowest performing public school system in the industrialized world
can we help you...?



:rofl:
Are they all responsible? What about the ones who are succeeding? Should we throw them out too? Do ya think they might administer in wealthier neighborhoods? :thumb:
Collateral damage... it's what's for breakfast


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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
Are they all responsible? What about the ones who are succeeding? Should we throw them out too? Do ya think they might administer in wealthier neighborhoods? :thumb:
Collateral damage... it's what's for breakfast


:mrgreen:
Poor, stupid kids who grow up to be poor, stupid adults are collateral damage as well. :nod:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Collateral damage... it's what's for breakfast


:mrgreen:
Poor, stupid kids who grow up to be poor, stupid adults are collateral damage as well. :nod:
Dude...
This is America - We have along distinguished history of stupid citizens..!!!
Let's not act like this is some kind of "new phenomenon"

:nod:

However: I never knew how easy it was to fuck with you... (fascinating) we've been on the same side too often
Now prepare yourself to experience the galactic power of my (fully operational) death by sarcasm star


:notworthy: any last words before you perish rebel scum..?
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
Poor, stupid kids who grow up to be poor, stupid adults are collateral damage as well. :nod:
Dude...
This is America - We have along distinguished history of stupid citizens..!!!
Let's not act like this is some kind of "new phenomenon"

:nod:

However: I never knew how easy it was to **** with you... (fascinating) we've been on the same side too often
Now prepare yourself to experience the galactic power of my (fully operational) death by sarcasm star


:notworthy: any last words before you perish rebel scum..?
Native thinks you've switched over. :mrgreen:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by native »

kalm wrote:...For some reason I'm sensing some deception in Chizzang's post.... :nod:
On a technical note, what are the differences between deception, sales/marketing/political dogma, irrational exuberance, and Asperger's Syndrome?!?!???
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by native »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Dude...
This is America - We have along distinguished history of stupid citizens..!!!
Let's not act like this is some kind of "new phenomenon"

:nod:

However: I never knew how easy it was to **** with you... (fascinating) we've been on the same side too often
Now prepare yourself to experience the galactic power of my (fully operational) death by sarcasm star


:notworthy: any last words before you perish rebel scum..?
Native thinks you've switched over. :mrgreen:

I may be dumb sometimes, but I am not that dumb.

But the issue begs the question. What happened to you, Cleets? Did you get laid last night?
Last edited by native on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by CitadelGrad »

kalm wrote:C-grad wrote:
Did it occur to you that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?
Gannon responded:
By what barometer have we now decided, as you say, that socio-economic problems are largely the result of piss-poor public education?
C-grad responded:
I did not say that socio-economic issues are cause by public schools only. If you can't find anything truly objectionable about what I wrote, then you need only attribute to me statements that I didn't write, right?
So you're accusing Gannon of attributing to you statements you didn't write by attributing to Gannon statements about what you wrote that he didn't write?

:rofl:

You truly have a dizzying intellect. :notworthy:
Why didn't you include the rest of what Gannon wrote? You know, the part where he actually said that I blamed all socio-economic ills on the public school system. You should change your name to "kunt"? It would be more appropriate.
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rethinking Schools? Why not quote directly from Mao's Little Red Book? :roll:
Who would have thought you and Bill Ayers would be so much alike? :lol:
Whoa!!!! That was a zinger and hilllllllarious. :ohno:

On que and classic Baldy. Define the source as communistic, throw in a Ayers or Alinsky jab, and contribute nothing to the debate.

I see you brought your a-game today. :thumb:
Just taking my game down to your level.
Maybe you need to do a little research about the places from where you link articles. Ayers is a contributor to that ultra extreme radical left-wing site, so why not include him and his Marxist philosophy? :roll:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Chizzang »

native wrote:
kalm wrote:
Native thinks you've switched over. :mrgreen:

I may be dumb sometimes, but I am not that dumb.

But the issue begs the question. What happened to you, Cleets? Did you get laid last night?

I'm a firm believer in regular old "evidence"
And all evidence suggests we have some serious education system flaws - again - Our present system is producing the dumbest young adults on the planet

I'll let others debate the 6 degrees of separation between system A and system B and tweeking this and adjusting that little aspect or another... all that will do is put off the inevitable till some future date

The whole thing needs to be JUNKED and probably right now... but that hurts peoples feelings and such


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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

CitadelGrad wrote:
kalm wrote:C-grad wrote:



Gannon responded:



C-grad responded:



So you're accusing Gannon of attributing to you statements you didn't write by attributing to Gannon statements about what you wrote that he didn't write?

:rofl:

You truly have a dizzying intellect. :notworthy:
Why didn't you include the rest of what Gannon wrote? You know, the part where he actually said that I blamed all socio-economic ills on the public school system. You should change your name to "kunt"? It would be more appropriate.

:rofl:

That is just plain and simply awesome.

It's ok cgrad. We all make mistakes sometimes. It's even ok to admit it. :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
Whoa!!!! That was a zinger and hilllllllarious. :ohno:

On que and classic Baldy. Define the source as communistic, throw in a Ayers or Alinsky jab, and contribute nothing to the debate.

I see you brought your a-game today. :thumb:
Just taking my game down to your level.
Maybe you need to do a little research about the places from where you link articles. Ayers is a contributor to that ultra extreme radical left-wing site, so why not include him and his Marxist philosophy? :roll:
Absolutely!

Community organizer, manchurian candidate, Hugo Chavez, Ceaser Chavez, Marx, Mao, Stalin, Muslim, Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon, Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers..............................I'm glad you clarified your position. :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote: Just taking my game down to your level.
Maybe you need to do a little research about the places from where you link articles. Ayers is a contributor to that ultra extreme radical left-wing site, so why not include him and his Marxist philosophy? :roll:
Absolutely!

Community organizer, manchurian candidate, Hugo Chavez, Ceaser Chavez, Marx, Mao, Stalin, Muslim, Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon, Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers..............................I'm glad you clarified your position. :thumb:
No, just solidified the truth. :thumb:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
Absolutely!

Community organizer, manchurian candidate, Hugo Chavez, Ceaser Chavez, Marx, Mao, Stalin, Muslim, Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon, Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers..............................I'm glad you clarified your position. :thumb:
No, just solidified the truth. :thumb:
Another excellent point on the state of education and charter schools in America. :thumb:

And the hits just keep comin'

George Soros, George Burns, George Lopez, Keith Olberman, Keith Hernandez, Keith Richards, MSNBC, MIT, New York Times, liberal, stalinist... :rofl:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote: No, just solidified the truth. :thumb:
Another excellent point on the state of education and charter schools in America. :thumb:

And the hits just keep comin'

George Soros, George Burns, George Lopez, Keith Olberman, Keith Hernandez, Keith Richards, MSNBC, MIT, New York Times, liberal, stalinist... :rofl:
...and another nonsensical mealymouthed rambling from the cs.com pet sheep. :coffee:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
Another excellent point on the state of education and charter schools in America. :thumb:

And the hits just keep comin'

George Soros, George Burns, George Lopez, Keith Olberman, Keith Hernandez, Keith Richards, MSNBC, MIT, New York Times, liberal, stalinist... :rofl:
...and another nonsensical mealymouthed rambling from the cs.com pet sheep. :coffee:
Enough! Stop it! I surrender!

There's simply no arguing with your excellent, substantive, and reasonable points on this important issue. :rofl:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote:
...and another nonsensical mealymouthed rambling from the cs.com pet sheep. :coffee:
Enough! Stop it! I surrender!

There's simply no arguing with your excellent, substantive, and reasonable points on this important issue. :rofl:
Says King Deflector. :rofl:

You haven't been able to refute one fact. Deflection is your only offense. :notworthy:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by mainejeff »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
Enough! Stop it! I surrender!

There's simply no arguing with your excellent, substantive, and reasonable points on this important issue. :rofl:
Says King Deflector. :rofl:

You haven't been able to refute one fact. Deflection is your only offense. :notworthy:
Boring.

:coffee:
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Re: Education Debacle of the Decade

Post by YoUDeeMan »

∞∞∞ wrote:Got this off CAAzone's political board-
http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/06/the-e ... cade/print:

OSP targeted about 2,000 of the poorest kids in DC who were stuck in some of the worst schools in the country. It gave their parents a $7,500 scholarship to attend a private school of their choice.

The response was immediate. Four applications were filled out for every slot available. Parents loved the program, considering it a lifeline for their children, a way to escape failing schools and enter safe, functional schools...

...Simply put, OSP has a profoundly positive effect not just on students, but on the city and the country as a whole.

So when it came time for Congress to reauthorize OSP, it would seem to be a no-brainer: Expand the program.

Instead, they killed it...

...And so OSP will end.
You were right about something. The government, who is responsible for PUBLIC education, giving some folks $7,500 to attend a PRIVATE school, is indeed one of, if not the, education debacle of the decade. :nod:

It deserved to get killed. :thumb:
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