More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

[SeattleGriz]

I'm not going to get excited by this news since the American electorate has proven it has the attention span of a gnat...but at least it's some movement in the proper direction...

Religious dipshit,

Christianity is dead in America. Catholocism dies along with your generation.

Actually, it moves to S America.

[SeattleGriz]

Religion is a great evil. Fvck the pope and all he stands for. Such silly ****....

If you had religion in your life you wouldn't be so..........angry.

Were you the local Catholic priest's altar boy?

The ultimate irony in life is going to be when D1B get molested by a priest on his deathbed!!!

[catamount man]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a shit. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one fucking thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so fuck them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a shit. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one fucking thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so fuck them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

what happened to catamount??? was he abducted or something? or was this a "moment of clarity" conversion type thing?

[Wedgebuster]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a shit. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one fucking thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so fuck them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

what happened to catamount??? was he abducted or something? or was this a "moment of clarity" conversion type thing?

No, the guy's been on a real pilgrimage here lately, scary as hell.

[catamount man]

Just trying to do what Christ would have me do and that is "Do unto others only what you would have done to you." Simple as that.

[Pwns]

deceptive poll...

i consider myself "pro-life" but oppose making it illegal... also, keep watch on this poll to see if it's a sustained trend or a blip...

moreover, if you dig deeper, 83% support keeping it legal in at least some circumstances...

it's not nearly as tidy as you'd like to think.

And that "some circumstances" might just include extreme circumstances like medical necessity.

And I agree that most abortion polls always have some kind of ambiguity in them, but at least the Planned Parenthood and NARAL groups won't be able to spin it into evidence of a (thin) 'pro-choice majority'.

[JoltinJoe]

I'm not going to get excited by this news since the American electorate has proven it has the attention span of a gnat...but at least it's some movement in the proper direction...

Religious dipshit,

Christianity is dead in America. Catholocism dies along with your generation.

Jeff, I had an interesting conversation with our pastor about a recent story that was posted here (I think) about the increase in the number of people who identify as atheist, and how they are more willing to confront people of faith on questions on the existence of God. He observed that he was aware the increase in atheism, and the activism of atheism.

But he also said that one of the unintended consequences of the activism of atheism is that, as more and more people who identify themselves as "faithful" are confronted, they begin examining their faith, and in the process become more committed and active in their faith, often going from a passive and occassional Church-goer into someone who takes an active role in the Church.

He said our parish outreach groups and missions are overflowing with volunteers, and many have told him that they have become committed to the Church after having some challenging experience with an atheist.

I began thinking about you. Seriously, I don't think you've ever changed anyone's mind here, but it does seem over the last few years, you have encouraged more people of faith on these boards to speak out about what they believe. That suggests a movement of greater committment to their beliefs.

Keep it up. You are doing the Lord's work.

[D1B]

Religious dipshit,

Christianity is dead in America. Catholocism dies along with your generation.

Jeff, I had an interesting conversation with our pastor about a recent story that was posted here (I think) about the increase in the number of people who identify as atheist, and how they are more willing to confront people of faith on questions on the existence of God. He observed that he was aware the increase in atheism, and the activism of atheism.

But he also said that one of the unintended consequences of the activism of atheism is that, as more and more people who identify themselves as "faithful" are confronted, they begin examining their faith, and in the process become more committed and active in their faith, often going from a passive and occassional Church-goer into someone who takes an active role in the Church.

He said our parish outreach groups and missions are overflowing with volunteers, and many have told him that they have become committed to the Church after having some challenging experience with an atheist.

I began thinking about you. Seriously, I don't think you've ever changed anyone's mind here, but it does seem over the last few years, you have encouraged more people of faith on these boards to speak out about what they believe. That suggests a movement of greater committment to their beliefs.

Keep it up. You are doing the Lord's work.

Another classic Joltin Joe lie or gross exaggeration. People are leaving your church in droves. If it wasn't for Hispanics you'd be all but forgotten.

Faith is becoming less and less an important part of people's lives. This is a fact and all reputable, objective polls and studies indicate it as such. Sorry, but hey great news at your church Joe!

Just read a great article in Newsweek, front page too: The Decline and Fall of Christian America

Check it out...

[catamount man]

I would say faith still plays an important role in the lives of Americans, just not in Catholic circles. People can see the hypocrisy in Rome, Hell, I left RCC, and therefore, that explains a lot.

GOD BLESS THE HOLY ANGLICAN/EPISCOPAL CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AZGrizFan]

Jeff, I had an interesting conversation with our pastor about a recent story that was posted here (I think) about the increase in the number of people who identify as atheist, and how they are more willing to confront people of faith on questions on the existence of God. He observed that he was aware the increase in atheism, and the activism of atheism.

But he also said that one of the unintended consequences of the activism of atheism is that, as more and more people who identify themselves as "faithful" are confronted, they begin examining their faith, and in the process become more committed and active in their faith, often going from a passive and occassional Church-goer into someone who takes an active role in the Church.

He said our parish outreach groups and missions are overflowing with volunteers, and many have told him that they have become committed to the Church after having some challenging experience with an atheist.

I began thinking about you. Seriously, I don't think you've ever changed anyone's mind here, but it does seem over the last few years, you have encouraged more people of faith on these boards to speak out about what they believe. That suggests a movement of greater committment to their beliefs.

Keep it up. You are doing the Lord's work.

Another classic Joltin Joe lie or gross exaggeration. People are leaving your church in droves. If it wasn't for Hispanics you'd be all but forgotten.

Faith is becoming less and less an important part of people's lives. This is a fact and all reputable, objective polls and studies indicate it as such. Sorry, but hey great news at your church Joe!

Just read a great article in Newsweek, front page too: The Decline and Fall of Christian America

Check it out...

We'd LOVE to check it out, D, but when YOU post "fact", you fail to back it up with actual FACTS.

[JoltinJoe]

Jeff, I had an interesting conversation with our pastor about a recent story that was posted here (I think) about the increase in the number of people who identify as atheist, and how they are more willing to confront people of faith on questions on the existence of God. He observed that he was aware the increase in atheism, and the activism of atheism.

But he also said that one of the unintended consequences of the activism of atheism is that, as more and more people who identify themselves as "faithful" are confronted, they begin examining their faith, and in the process become more committed and active in their faith, often going from a passive and occassional Church-goer into someone who takes an active role in the Church.

He said our parish outreach groups and missions are overflowing with volunteers, and many have told him that they have become committed to the Church after having some challenging experience with an atheist.

I began thinking about you. Seriously, I don't think you've ever changed anyone's mind here, but it does seem over the last few years, you have encouraged more people of faith on these boards to speak out about what they believe. That suggests a movement of greater committment to their beliefs.

Keep it up. You are doing the Lord's work.

Another classic Joltin Joe lie or gross exaggeration. People are leaving your church in droves. If it wasn't for Hispanics you'd be all but forgotten.

Faith is becoming less and less an important part of people's lives. This is a fact and all reputable, objective polls and studies indicate it as such. Sorry, but hey great news at your church Joe!

Just read a great article in Newsweek, front page too: The Decline and Fall of Christian America

Check it out...

According to the Pew Report, 2 out of every 3 Americans born Catholic retain their Catholic identity into adulthood ... one of the highest retention rates among religious traditions in America ... and Catholics have consistently remained about 25% of the American population. Where Christianity is losing ground as a percentage of the population is among Protestant denominations. All of this is verified by the Pew Report that you and others os frequently distort.

And actually the Newsweek article you cited supported my point. It too referenced the increase in the numbers of self-identified atheists, but then also said: "Let's be clear: while the percentage of Christians may be shrinking, rumors of the death of Christianity are greatly exaggerated. Being less Christian does not necessarily mean that America is post-Christian. " It also then discussed precisely what my pastor has observed: that in many instances, the committment of the faithful is becoming deeper.

[JoltinJoe]

Another classic Joltin Joe lie or gross exaggeration. People are leaving your church in droves. If it wasn't for Hispanics you'd be all but forgotten.

Faith is becoming less and less an important part of people's lives. This is a fact and all reputable, objective polls and studies indicate it as such. Sorry, but hey great news at your church Joe!

Just read a great article in Newsweek, front page too: The Decline and Fall of Christian America

Check it out...

We'd LOVE to check it out, D, but when YOU post "fact", you fail to back it up with actual FACTS.

Hey Tom, I have a slogan for modern atheism: "We're larger, louder, and more irrelevant than ever."

[JoltinJoe]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a ****. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one **** thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so **** them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

[Appaholic]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a ****. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one **** thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so **** them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

That would be so noble if Jesus had actually started the Catholic church....and speaking of despots, what was that thing the church started in Spain again?....pot, meet mr. kettle...

[JoltinJoe]

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

That would be so noble if Jesus had actually started the Catholic church....and speaking of despots, what was that thing the church started in Spain again?....pot, meet mr. kettle...

But it was. Jesus directed the Apostles to spread the word and that he would send the Holy Spirit to assist them. The founding of the Church is then described in Acts 1 & 2.

As for the Inquisition, I think I already addressed why Church leadership can get so corrupted.

[CID1990]

Corruption of the true message and intent of religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism or Islam, is a human creation. Most religions represent the aspiration to good, not the achievement of it.

[catamount man]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a ****. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one **** thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so **** them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

No man is authorized by Christ to proclaim his mother Mary as his co-redemptix, no man was authorized by Christ to pray to nobody other than him in his church, no man was ever authorized by Christ to sell salvation through indulgences and no man was ever deemed by Christ to call himself "infallible". Peter may indeed have been the first Pope but even he never declared himself to be infallible. He simply served as a bishop among bishops. I have no great desire to argue either but let's just say the constant prayers to Mary for "help", whatever Christ is the LONE mediator, and other stuff proved to be nothing more than adding to the Bible for me. Not to mention the attitudes towards the AIDS epidemic in Africa show just out of touch Rome is with the average poor family in that part of the world. A condom bans your soul to Hell? get real.......

other than that peace to you, I have found my place with God in the Episcopal Church. Shalom!

[Appaholic]

That would be so noble if Jesus had actually started the Catholic church....and speaking of despots, what was that thing the church started in Spain again?....pot, meet mr. kettle...

But it was. Jesus directed the Apostles to spread the word and that he would send the Holy Spirit to assist them. The founding of the Church is then described in Acts 1 & 2.

As for the Inquisition, I think I already addressed why Church leadership can get so corrupted.

Isn't that the scripture basis of every "legit" Christian church or sect?

Seriously, I'm not trying to pull a D1B on this one (well, except for the inquisition comment... ), but are you implying that Acts 1 & 2 are the basis of all Christian religions? Or are you saying it is the basis of the Roman Catholic church with the implication that it is the only Christian church?

[D1B]

Another classic Joltin Joe lie or gross exaggeration. People are leaving your church in droves. If it wasn't for Hispanics you'd be all but forgotten.

Faith is becoming less and less an important part of people's lives. This is a fact and all reputable, objective polls and studies indicate it as such. Sorry, but hey great news at your church Joe!

Just read a great article in Newsweek, front page too: The Decline and Fall of Christian America

Check it out...

We'd LOVE to check it out, D, but when YOU post "fact", you fail to back it up with actual FACTS.

It's (decline of christianity and demise of the catholic church) been discussed ad nauseaum. I'll post the source and idiots like you can glean the facts, if you want. I aint Tman, or Tman's little bitch (you). You can make your own decisions.

[JoltinJoe]

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

No man is authorized by Christ to proclaim his mother Mary as his co-redemptix, no man was authorized by Christ to pray to nobody other than him in his church, no man was ever authorized by Christ to sell salvation through indulgences and no man was ever deemed by Christ to call himself "infallible". Peter may indeed have been the first Pope but even he never declared himself to be infallible. He simply served as a bishop among bishops. I have no great desire to argue either but let's just say the constant prayers to Mary for "help", whatever Christ is the LONE mediator, and other stuff proved to be nothing more than adding to the Bible for me. Not to mention the attitudes towards the AIDS epidemic in Africa show just out of touch Rome is with the average poor family in that part of the world. A condom bans your soul to Hell? get real.......

other than that peace to you, I have found my place with God in the Episcopal Church. Shalom!

The Church has never proclaimed Mary as "co-redemptrix" in the sense you imply. In fact, it has repeatedly denied petitions from those with Marian devotions to make such a declaration. Pope John Paul II, who had about as strong a devotion to Mary as anyone, specifically denied that Mary had an equal role with Christ, declaring that salvation is available only through the grace of God, and that mankind was redeemed only through the suffering of Christ. When the Church uses the term "co-redemptrix" in reference to Mary, it is speaking in terms of her spiritual union with Christ. We are all called to be in union with Christ, for it is our obedient acceptance of the gift of God's grace that we are saved, and it is our hope to achieve the spiritual unity with Christ most perfectly evident in Mary's devotion.

Also the Church does not authorize prayer except to God alone, although it does allow petitioning through the prayers of the saints. When we petition through a saint, it is no more than asking a friend to offer prayers for you, much like I may ask you to pray for me or for my petition. Mary is seen the as the most honored of the saints, because of her special devotion as the Mother of Jesus, and many believe that petitions made through Mary are most effective because of the special place of honor that she holds.

The sale of indulgences was an abuse. That practice has come to an end, but it was never official Church doctrine or dogma. Additionally, the doctrine of papal infallibility is grossly exaggerated by non-Catholics, as it applies only when the pope speaks on matters of faith, and has been invoked a grand total of two times in its history.

As for the use of condoms in Africa, Humanae Vitae lays out the case against the use of any contraceptive device which separates the act of sexual intimacy from the responsibility of sexual intimacy. The fact is that a person who has intercourse with a person infected with AIDS, using a condom, still stands about a 3-5% chance of being infected. "Safe sex" is a minsomer; perhaps "safer sex" is more appropriate.

[D1B]

Wow....just what this board needed. Another Catholic vs anti-Catholic thread. Eh, being an Episcopalian means you don't give a ****. I could care less for the "God haters" crowd as well. They can't prove one **** thing and thus, it drives them insane. The Catholics cannot get everybody who does believe to confirm to their middle ages version of Christianity, so **** them too.

Both groups can kiss my Anglican ass.

Hey, catamount, I have no desire to argue with you, but I'm not about to join a church founded by a despot who started the church so that he could divorce (rather than execute) one of his wives, and who martyred the blood of the great St. Thomas More.

I'm going to stick with the one Church which was founded by Jesus and the blessed acts of the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, the one Church which existed at the time Paul wrote that the Church was the bride of Christ.

If I'm in, I'm all the way in. Yes, our leaders have often proven to be boobs or worse, but that should not be surprising because you should expect that they are prime targets for temptation, simply because they are Church leaders. Satan tempted Jesus with the authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. He had the strength to say no, but how many of us would succumb? The Church is not the leaders anyway; it is the community of the faithful in communion in Christ.

And if I don't like a Church teaching, I am more inclined to stay in and seek change than jump to another church founded by a man, like Henry VIII or Martin Luther. No man is necessary to "correct" what Jesus started.

Joe, minimize it all you want, but you are a member of a cult with a brutal history of murder, torture, and horrible treatment of fellow humans.

Joe, you are a member of a church that systematically raped children, primarily young boys, for eons. In fact, it was more like organized crime that a force for good. And you bring your children into it with you.

Each Sunday, you enter a one quarter full huge/scary building and participate in a macable celebration where you eat the flesh and drink the blood of your god. Yet you disparage other cannibalistic rituals and religions as the domain of savages.

Fact: The percentage of of self-identified christians has fallen 10 points in the past two decades.

[JoltinJoe]

We'd LOVE to check it out, D, but when YOU post "fact", you fail to back it up with actual FACTS.

It's (decline of christianity and demise of the catholic church) been discussed ad nauseaum. I'll post the source and idiots like you can glean the facts, if you want. I aint Tman, or Tman's little bitch (you). You can make your own decisions.

I just got back from church, during which we continued to pray for our parish's outreach group currently in Haiti. Each year, a group of volunteers, including medical professionals who are members of our church, travel to Haiti to assist in the constrution of housing and to provide medical care and immunizations to a number of impovershed villages. Last year, the group made national news because they were trapped in Haiti for a number of days after an outbreak of political discord.

I know you are a generous person and I think you would be pretty comfortable with these people, even if you think their generosity is the result of some myth.

[D1B]

No man is authorized by Christ to proclaim his mother Mary as his co-redemptix, no man was authorized by Christ to pray to nobody other than him in his church, no man was ever authorized by Christ to sell salvation through indulgences and no man was ever deemed by Christ to call himself "infallible". Peter may indeed have been the first Pope but even he never declared himself to be infallible. He simply served as a bishop among bishops. I have no great desire to argue either but let's just say the constant prayers to Mary for "help", whatever Christ is the LONE mediator, and other stuff proved to be nothing more than adding to the Bible for me. Not to mention the attitudes towards the AIDS epidemic in Africa show just out of touch Rome is with the average poor family in that part of the world. A condom bans your soul to Hell? get real.......

other than that peace to you, I have found my place with God in the Episcopal Church. Shalom!

The Church has never proclaimed Mary as "co-redemptrix" in the sense you imply. In fact, it has repeatedly denied petitions from those with Marian devotions to make such a declaration. Pope John Paul II, who had about as strong a devotion to Mary as anyone, specifically denied that Mary had an equal role with Christ, declaring that salvation is available only through the grace of God, and that mankind was redeemed only through the suffering of Christ. When the Church uses the term "co-redemptrix" in reference to Mary, it is speaking in terms of her spiritual union with Christ. We are all called to be in union with Christ, for it is our obedient acceptance of the gift of God's grace that we are saved, and it is our hope to achieve the spiritual unity with Christ most perfectly evident in Mary's devotion.

Also the Church does not authorize prayer except to God alone, although it does allow petitioning through the prayers of the saints. When we petition through a saint, it is no more than asking a friend to offer prayers for you, much like I may ask you to pray for me or for my petition. Mary is seen the as the most honored of the saints, because of her special devotion as the Mother of Jesus, and many believe that petitions made through Mary are most effective because of the special place of honor that she holds.

The sale of indulgences was an abuse. That practice has come to an end, but it was never official Church doctrine or dogma. Additionally, the doctrine of papal infallibility is grossly exaggerated by non-Catholics, as it applies only when the pope speaks on matters of faith, and has been invoked a grand total of two times in its history.

As for the use of condoms in Africa, Humanae Vitae lays out the case against the use of any contraceptive device which separates the act of sexual intimacy from the responsibility of sexual intimacy. The fact is that a person who has intercourse with a person infected with AIDS, using a condom, still stands about a 3-5% chance of being infected. "Safe sex" is a minsomer; perhaps "safer sex" is more appropriate.

Joe, if anything you are a master Catholic apologist. Ironic, the church has gone through tremendous humanizing changes over the last couple hundred years. Well, they were dragged - kickin and screaming, but non the less they are a better business now. And the irony is that the church had nothing to do with it. None of this reform started from within, it was started by atheists, scientists, free thinkers, businessmen and martyrs who challenged the church's authority. People like me. The only bad thing is it created a middle class of apologists (people like you) who's only role is to comb through countless reams of convoluted myth and come up with good answers, mind boggling, and complex answers to simple questions.

What I want to know about is the Catholic "No Child's Behind Left" Policy.

[D1B]

It's (decline of christianity and demise of the catholic church) been discussed ad nauseaum. I'll post the source and idiots like you can glean the facts, if you want. I aint Tman, or Tman's little bitch (you). You can make your own decisions.

I just got back from church, during which we continued to pray for our parish's outreach group currently in Haiti. Each year, a group of volunteers, including medical professionals who are members of our church, travel to Haiti to assist in the constrution of housing and to provide medical care and immunizations to a number of impovershed villages. Last year, the group made national news because they were trapped in Haiti for a number of days after an outbreak of political discord.

I know you are a generous person and I think you would be pretty comfortable with these people, even if you think their generosity is the result of some myth.

Their generosity comes from their heart. It's a natural human impulse, whose origins have nothing to do with the church.

I commend, and take partial responsibility for as noted previously, the catholics recent role in alleviating human suffering.