Trump Tariffs = Tax Hike on all

[kalm]

Yup, we’ve been flooded with cheap, shoddy Red Chinese goods for years, and our manufacturing sector (textiles, appliances, etc.) has been gutted. Yup, John, it’s been great. And the little buggers steal our intellectual property, but you knew that.

It's that type of shoddy logic by leftists that resulted in Trump winning the Rust Belt. Yeah, offshoring jobs to China is good for middle class Americans!!!

Holy shit, yes. And it's amazing to watch people who were supposedly populist, pro-working class "liberals" now criticizing Trumps trade policy.

Many good thoughts over the last few pages and I think it was Chizzy who implied that our recent trade policy was shaped to benefit corporate interests which isn't always the same as benefiting the nation as a whole.

[kalm]

China also has $1.7 trillion in US debt. That's another tool China could use that I haven't seen much discussion about.

We're essentially borrowing money from China to pay US farmers who are screwed by our tariffs on China.

That's the problem with free trade. It's not free. How many of those same farmers will lecture that there's no such thing as a free lunch?

Although there might be a bit of the old Henry Ford philosophy somewhere in this that you pay your employees more so they buy more of your cars.

[CAA Flagship]

A trade war "win" with respect to China is not only a better trade deal with China. That is the first, more direct, goal. But we can also "win" with an upset of the trading relationships with all countries. If China can't afford the tariffs, then we can look to other countries in Asia or South America, for example, to provide the same product where tariffs are not imposed. The goal here is to reduce our dependency on China and provide opportunities with countries that are better political and economic "allies" to the US.

The goal is to slow China's economic growth and that can be done either with a direct, and more favorable, trade deal with them, or helping create other markets to obtain the same products.

[Ivytalk]

It's that type of shoddy logic by leftists that resulted in Trump winning the Rust Belt. Yeah, offshoring jobs to China is good for middle class Americans!!!

Holy ****, yes. And it's amazing to watch people who were supposedly populist, pro-working class "liberals" now criticizing Trumps trade policy.

Many good thoughts over the last few pages and I think it was Chizzy who implied that our recent trade policy was shaped to benefit corporate interests which isn't always the same as benefiting the nation as a whole.

Serious question, kalm: if you were czar of the universe (my old contracts professor’s term), would you abolish the corporate form?

[kalm]

Holy ****, yes. And it's amazing to watch people who were supposedly populist, pro-working class "liberals" now criticizing Trumps trade policy.

Many good thoughts over the last few pages and I think it was Chizzy who implied that our recent trade policy was shaped to benefit corporate interests which isn't always the same as benefiting the nation as a whole.

Serious question, kalm: if you were czar of the universe (my old contracts professor’s term), would you abolish the corporate form?

I sense a trap!

We actually formed a non-profit corporation this year of which I'm a board member. I did the meat of the filing information and we hired a consulting firm to help with the formal state and federal filings.

I can see reasons for the corporate form but I also think it's a way to cheat the system in some respects. It would seem corporate rights should be more limited and charters more often revoked when they no longer serve the public good or behave poorly.

[Ivytalk]

Serious question, kalm: if you were czar of the universe (my old contracts professor’s term), would you abolish the corporate form?

I sense a trap!

We actually formed a non-profit corporation this year of which I'm a board member. I did the meat of the filing information and we hired a consulting firm to help with the formal state and federal filings.

I can see reasons for the corporate form but I also think it's a way to cheat the system in some respects. It would seem corporate rights should be more limited and charters more often revoked when they no longer serve the public good or behave poorly.

Delaware and some other states now authorize “benefit corporations” if you want to serve some constituency other than stockholders. The B-Corp fans include various groups that have adopted “sustainability” in lieu of short-term profits as a goal. I’m oversimplifying, but it’s a current option.

Delaware corporations are required to file an annual report that identifies their officers and directors, but not their owners. Delaware LLCs must pay an annual tax, but they aren’t required to identify anyone. That’s the next big fight, given Congressfolk who say Russian hoodlums (among others) have laundered money through Delaware entities, particularly LLCs.

[Chizzang]

Serious question, kalm: if you were czar of the universe (my old contracts professor’s term), would you abolish the corporate form?

I sense a trap!

We actually formed a non-profit corporation this year of which I'm a board member. I did the meat of the filing information and we hired a consulting firm to help with the formal state and federal filings.

I can see reasons for the corporate form but I also think it's a way to cheat the system in some respects. It would seem corporate rights should be more limited and charters more often revoked when they no longer serve the public good or behave poorly.

Becoming an American LLC is the easiest way to distance yourself from the basic responsibilities of citizenship

[GannonFan]

Yup, we’ve been flooded with cheap, shoddy Red Chinese goods for years, and our manufacturing sector (textiles, appliances, etc.) has been gutted. Yup, John, it’s been great. And the little buggers steal our intellectual property, but you knew that.

We willingly danced with the devil...
and lost all our intellectual property as a choice
because maximum profit is the sole criteria by which American companies are measured

See:
Wall Street

The intellectual property is the big thing - I'm not so much concerned with the manufacturing (and I live in the manufacturing world) - people should build things where it makes the most sense to build it. We don't need to be making toothpicks here in the US for instance. But giving up the IP is the thing to fight over. The things that we should be making here are the things that are hard to make, require specific technical knowledge, and isn't easily replicated elsewhere. That's the stuff that IP protects and those are the things that are growth products - good margins, sustainable product lives, and so on. China doesn't have what we have in terms of that kind of innovation and co-opting IP is a way to import that. If this trade war does nothing else, if it helps to shore up IP from being easily lifted then that's a good trade war to have.

[Chizzang]

We willingly danced with the devil...
and lost all our intellectual property as a choice
because maximum profit is the sole criteria by which American companies are measured

See:
Wall Street

The intellectual property is the big thing - I'm not so much concerned with the manufacturing (and I live in the manufacturing world) - people should build things where it makes the most sense to build it. We don't need to be making toothpicks here in the US for instance. But giving up the IP is the thing to fight over. The things that we should be making here are the things that are hard to make, require specific technical knowledge, and isn't easily replicated elsewhere. That's the stuff that IP protects and those are the things that are growth products - good margins, sustainable product lives, and so on. China doesn't have what we have in terms of that kind of innovation and co-opting IP is a way to import that. If this trade war does nothing else, if it helps to shore up IP from being easily lifted then that's a good trade war to have.

Does a trade war fix that problem..?

[GannonFan]

The intellectual property is the big thing - I'm not so much concerned with the manufacturing (and I live in the manufacturing world) - people should build things where it makes the most sense to build it. We don't need to be making toothpicks here in the US for instance. But giving up the IP is the thing to fight over. The things that we should be making here are the things that are hard to make, require specific technical knowledge, and isn't easily replicated elsewhere. That's the stuff that IP protects and those are the things that are growth products - good margins, sustainable product lives, and so on. China doesn't have what we have in terms of that kind of innovation and co-opting IP is a way to import that. If this trade war does nothing else, if it helps to shore up IP from being easily lifted then that's a good trade war to have.

Does a trade war fix that problem..?

Don't know, it's not over yet.

[Chizzang]

Does a trade war fix that problem..?

Don't know, it's not over yet.

It doesn't seem like intellectual heists are addressed in Trade Wars
If you're going to have the Chinks build it how do you keep them from stealing the IP

[CAA Flagship]

Don't know, it's not over yet.

It doesn't seem like intellectual heists are addressed in Trade Wars
If you're going to have the Chinks build it how do you keep them from stealing the IP

If you can get other countries, that are more trustworthy, to create a market for the US to buy goods from without the stealing of IP, then it is addressed, no?

[GannonFan]

Don't know, it's not over yet.

It doesn't seem like intellectual heists are addressed in Trade Wars
If you're going to have the Chinks build it how do you keep them from stealing the IP

You can make things without knowing the science behind it - happens all the time actually. And when the science behind it is the important thing, then it matters.

The mechanics of the trade war aren't the most important things, those are the things to bring people to the table. It's the discussions and negotiations to stop the trade war where the real benefits/ compromises are discussed and decided on.

[Chizzang]

Intellectual Property seems like the horse that got out of the barn a long time ago...
and frankly that's "on us"
things with deep IP should always stay "in house"

I see this trade was as something entirely different than that lost cause

[Ivytalk]

Don't know, it's not over yet.

It doesn't seem like intellectual heists are addressed in Trade Wars
If you're going to have the Chinks build it how do you keep them from stealing the IP

The fiends work the IP into the licensing agreements.

[Chizzang]

It doesn't seem like intellectual heists are addressed in Trade Wars
If you're going to have the Chinks build it how do you keep them from stealing the IP

The fiends work the IP into the licensing agreements.

Of course they do - Why wouldn't they...
We fuck them over every chance we get - why expect anything different in return



When you hand the devil the keys to your car... the tank will be empty if he ever returns it

[GannonFan]

The fiends work the IP into the licensing agreements.

Of course they do - Why wouldn't they...
We **** them over every chance we get - why expect anything different in return



When you hand the devil the keys to your car... the tank will be empty if he ever returns it

When they tell you to fill the gas tank before you even give them the car, and demand it before you even get to enter the hotel, that's what the trade war is about. Access to markets and IP demands. If they were just reverse-engineering stuff that would be one thing. Demanding the blueprints up front is another. And we certainly don't have to do it, but when it's a condition of entering a market that is supposed to be open without that requirement then it leads to where we are now, i.e. a trade war. Different rules for different folks.

[Chizzang]

Of course they do - Why wouldn't they...
We **** them over every chance we get - why expect anything different in return



When you hand the devil the keys to your car... the tank will be empty if he ever returns it

When they tell you to fill the gas tank before you even give them the car, and demand it before you even get to enter the hotel, that's what the trade war is about. Access to markets and IP demands. If they were just reverse-engineering stuff that would be one thing. Demanding the blueprints up front is another. And we certainly don't have to do it, but when it's a condition of entering a market that is supposed to be open without that requirement then it leads to where we are now, i.e. a trade war. Different rules for different folks.

10-4 Cap'n
They're ass holes - smart ass holes at that

[GannonFan]

When they tell you to fill the gas tank before you even give them the car, and demand it before you even get to enter the hotel, that's what the trade war is about. Access to markets and IP demands. If they were just reverse-engineering stuff that would be one thing. Demanding the blueprints up front is another. And we certainly don't have to do it, but when it's a condition of entering a market that is supposed to be open without that requirement then it leads to where we are now, i.e. a trade war. Different rules for different folks.

10-4 Cap'n
They're ass holes - smart ass holes at that

Nah, they're just competitors, no harm in that. We're all competing, so everyone's going to play the cards they have. Doesn't mean things don't change, though.

[Chizzang]

10-4 Cap'n
They're ass holes - smart ass holes at that

Nah, they're just competitors, no harm in that. We're all competing, so everyone's going to play the cards they have. Doesn't mean things don't change, though.

American companies can't pull out of China
Wall Street will penalize them too much for lost profits

So all we're doing is a kind of elaborate dance of fines and penalties
Which might work - and here's hoping it does

but we're never getting the IP thing fixed
Not as long as we surrender ourselves to their factories and production

Profit out weighs common sense by two to one the way we have our market structured

[GannonFan]

Nah, they're just competitors, no harm in that. We're all competing, so everyone's going to play the cards they have. Doesn't mean things don't change, though.

American companies can't pull out of China
Wall Street will penalize them too much for lost profits

So all we're doing is a kind of elaborate dance of fines and penalties
Which might work - and here's hoping it does

but we're never getting the IP thing fixed
Not as long as we surrender ourselves to their factories and production

Profit out weighs common sense by two to one the way we have our market structured

Everything is fluid, all day everyday. Nothing can be done about the IP's that have already been turned over, and nothing can be done about what markets were closed to American competition, but we're talking about what's going to happen today, tomorrow, and the next day. As Ferris Bueller said, life moves pretty fast. This is a long game, and likely one without an end, not one that's already been decided.

[CAA Flagship]

Nah, they're just competitors, no harm in that. We're all competing, so everyone's going to play the cards they have. Doesn't mean things don't change, though.

American companies can't pull out of China
Wall Street will penalize them too much for lost profits

So all we're doing is a kind of elaborate dance of fines and penalties
Which might work - and here's hoping it does

but we're never getting the IP thing fixed
Not as long as we surrender ourselves to their factories and production

Profit out weighs common sense by two to one the way we have our market structured

Again, that's fine. But like I have said, if we give a reason for other companies to compete China for our business, we become less dependent on THEIR goods. And at the same time, hurt their economy. I think that, if not the main goal, is an acceptable result.

[CAA Flagship]

Canada is now on board with the new NAFTA, the USMCA.

(Did Adam Yauch name this?)

[kalm]

Canada is now on board with the new NAFTA, the USMCA.

(Did Adam Yauch name this?)

My name is Donald T and I still do what I please...

[CAA Flagship]

Canada is now on board with the new NAFTA, the USMCA.

(Did Adam Yauch name this?)

My name is Donald T and I still do what I please...

Double R. foots the bill most definitely