FL Abortion Clinic Murders Live Birth Child

[travelinman67]

You are a piece of work, T-man.

How is it NOT about equality?? If we had equality, do you think that any of this would be occuring?

IT IS ALL ABOUT EQUALITY

You claim I have anger issue - yeah, I do. I am pissed off that I do not have equal rights that other Americans enjoy.

You glibbly dismiss the struggles, the persecution, the f**k[*] MURDERS that gays and lesbians have endured in America.

You ignore the boycotts, the threats, the protests, and the venom spewed by the religious right who are imposing their f**k[*] up version of morality on the rest of us.

You make ILLOGICAL leaps of "reasoning", assocating dissimilar situations to fit your ideas.

Yes, churches have been preaching hatred against gays for centuries. We know better now. It should not be tolerated. Churches have preached hatred against many peoples - it is no excuse. 5000 years of being wrong is NO DEFENSE.

It is obvious that you do not see logic, so no use in debating with you. You are so wrapped up in the percieved injustices to YOURSELF, that you condemn everyone else to your misery.

(please re-read that last sentence again, and ponder it within the context of this debate... )

Your vision of "equality" sure sounds a lot like revenge to me...

BTW, what "injustices" to myself are you saying applies to this discussion, D1Backjon?

[travelinman67]

BTW, Jon, I reposted that file as an .xls Excel file rather than a 2007 .xlsx file. If you cannot open it, I'll post it up as a .zip.

http://www.spaceeater.com/Prop_8_Opposi ... r_List.xls

[dbackjon]

How is having the same rights as everyone else revenge?


You are making NO sense.

[travelinman67]

How is having the same rights as everyone else revenge?

You are making NO sense.

Achieve progress and "equality" by example and education, not forced egalitarianism via fascism.

And spare me the "don't use fascism" exclamation. What has been proposed in CA adding anti-homosexual public discourse to the list of hate crimes, as Canada did last year, is fascism targeted at silencing the church.

Again, for the umpteenth time...

Fascism didn't work at AGS. It didn't work in Canada when authorities started showing up at the pulpit on Sundays with criminal complaints, and it definitely won't work in the U.S.

Open non-emotional discourse about basic human rights. Bite the bullet and start with the analogous "we are all sinners" position...

..."they" are no better than "you"...

...then slowly move forward, discussing the commonality of humanity, not the differences...

It works. I've seen it.

The "sea of white hair" will never change their opinions, but they will be dead in a few years, and the LDS'ers of the world have already (in effect) withdrawn into their own communities. But every time the LGBT militant leaders step up with a hate-driven retribution scheme, they start losing the younger generations. Some things are just not right, and all the propoganda in the world won't change those moral absolutes. It has to be a resolution of mutual respect.

You can't be screaming for equality with one breath, while condoning taking away the liberty of free speech and religion from another-even if it is "bigoted". There's plenty of groups and classes of people, secular and non-secular, who espouse bigotry: Virtually everyone does it in varying degrees, even you. Anyone who presumes a pious position of moral perfection, is in denial or a liar. And for government to declare one form of bigotry "off limits" while turning a blind eye to other "acceptable" forms just fuels our continued social decline.

[D1B]

How is having the same rights as everyone else revenge?

You are making NO sense.

Achieve progress and "equality" by example and education, not forced egalitarianism via fascism.

And spare me the "don't use fascism" exclamation. What has been proposed in CA adding anti-homosexual public discourse to the list of hate crimes, as Canada did last year, is fascism targeted at silencing the church.

Again, for the umpteenth time...

Fascism didn't work at AGS. It didn't work in Canada when authorities started showing up at the pulpit on Sundays with criminal complaints, and it definitely won't work in the U.S.

Open non-emotional discourse about basic human rights. Bite the bullet and start with the analogous "we are all sinners" position...

..."they" are no better than "you"...

...then slowly move forward, discussing the commonality of humanity, not the differences...

It works. I've seen it.

The "sea of white hair" will never change their opinions, but they will be dead in a few years, and the LDS'ers of the world have already (in effect) withdrawn into their own communities. But every time the LGBT militant leaders step up with a hate-driven retribution scheme, they start losing the younger generations. Some things are just not right, and all the propoganda in the world won't change those moral absolutes. It has to be a resolution of mutual respect.

You can't be screaming for equality with one breath, while condoning taking away the liberty of free speech and religion from another-even if it is "bigoted". There's plenty of groups and classes of people, secular and non-secular, who espouse bigotry: Virtually everyone does it in varying degrees, even you. Anyone who presumes a pious position of moral perfection, is in denial or a liar. And for government to declare one form of bigotry "off limits" while turning a blind eye to other "acceptable" forms just fuels our continued social decline.

Tman, you have officially "lost it".

"Achieve progress by example and education"

[Cap'n Cat]

No shit.


I'll share a beer with you sometime, but this is lunacy.

[D1B]

No shit.


I'll share a beer with you sometime, but this is lunacy.

I will too. But I'll bring a concealed weapon, just in case.

[travelinman67]

No shit.


I'll share a beer with you sometime, but this is lunacy.

I will too. But I'll bring a concealed weapon, just in case.

Bring a notepad. You'll want to chronicle my epiphanous theories.

[ASUMountaineer]

ASUMountaineer, a couple of things...

Now, this chick definitely shouldn't be having a public funeral and all of a sudden giving two sh!ts about this baby. She wanted it dead to begin with, she got what she wanted. So, a lawsuit by her over the child is ridiculous, though a lawsuit for botched abortion procedures should be permissible.

I don't want to speak for this woman - she may or may not be doing this just to get money/attention, but it is entirely possible that she is not. All too often women contemplating abortions will be told "it's just a clump of cells draining your energy" and get a false idea about how baby-like the "fetus" is. I feel very sorry for this woman as she was already struggling with the decision to have ana bortion and then had a barely inchoate baby just severed from her uterus and disposed of like a used tampon. I'd be pretty pissed off too if that happened to me. If we are going to have second-trimester abortions, at least f^&*ing tell women the TRUTH about the developmental status of the "fetus". Of course, the pro-abortion nazis would probably say it's "anti-choice mind tricks" or some nonsense like that.

I definitely agree about the doctor, he should have told her...and how do you know he didn't? Clearly, anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence, would know that the baby is alive in the womb...surely she's had an ultrasound by 6 months. She wanted the baby dead, so I think she loses the option to argue about the manner of death for the child (that would be the state's option).

Appa, I hear what you're saying too. Many pro-lifers in this country live our double standards (as do many pro-choicers). People who claim to be pro-life, but support capital punishment and are pro-war, are no better than the pro-choicers they rail against. I used to live that double standard, pro-life, pro-capital punishment. However, I saw the conflict and now I do not support the death penalty.

I'm anti-death penalty and anti-Iraq war, but I don't see any double standard there. I don't see anything inconsistant about believing you have a rigt-to-life that begins before birth and at the same time believing you forfeit it if you are convicted of murder. Also, if a person believes that overthrowing Saddam Husseine will ultimately mean less deaths in the middle east in the long run, then that person is not being inconsistant.

You said overthrowing Saddam, not killing him. Sure, in a war, there is death. I said I'm not pro-war, but that's doesn't make me anti-war, sometimes it is necessary--this was not such a time. I think it is inconsistent to be against a mother determining when her child can "die" and being ok with the state making that determination. It is inconsistent, whether you choose to admit it or not. Why should you, or any person, have the authority to say who should and should not die...isn't that why the murderer was arrested to begin with?

[Ibanez]

You are a piece of work, T-man.

How is it NOT about equality?? If we had equality, do you think that any of this would be occuring?

IT IS ALL ABOUT EQUALITY

You claim I have anger issue - yeah, I do. I am pissed off that I do not have equal rights that other Americans enjoy.

You glibbly dismiss the struggles, the persecution, the f**k[*] MURDERS that gays and lesbians have endured in America.

You ignore the boycotts, the threats, the protests, and the venom spewed by the religious right who are imposing their f**k[*] up version of morality on the rest of us.

You make ILLOGICAL leaps of "reasoning", assocating dissimilar situations to fit your ideas.

Yes, churches have been preaching hatred against gays for centuries. We know better now. It should not be tolerated. Churches have preached hatred against many peoples - it is no excuse. 5000 years of being wrong is NO DEFENSE.

It is obvious that you do not see logic, so no use in debating with you. You are so wrapped up in the percieved injustices to YOURSELF, that you condemn everyone else to your misery.

Homosexuality has been seen as a "disorder" or agains the norm since Christianity became a dominant religion. Before that man love was acceptable and openly practiced by most men, it wasnt until Christianity came about that the beliefs of monogmy and hetreosexuality dominat sexual behavior.

But that's neither here nor there.

[ASUMountaineer]

You are a piece of work, T-man.

How is it NOT about equality?? If we had equality, do you think that any of this would be occuring?

IT IS ALL ABOUT EQUALITY

You claim I have anger issue - yeah, I do. I am pissed off that I do not have equal rights that other Americans enjoy.

You glibbly dismiss the struggles, the persecution, the f**k[*] MURDERS that gays and lesbians have endured in America.

You ignore the boycotts, the threats, the protests, and the venom spewed by the religious right who are imposing their f**k[*] up version of morality on the rest of us.

You make ILLOGICAL leaps of "reasoning", assocating dissimilar situations to fit your ideas.

Yes, churches have been preaching hatred against gays for centuries. We know better now. It should not be tolerated. Churches have preached hatred against many peoples - it is no excuse. 5000 years of being wrong is NO DEFENSE.

It is obvious that you do not see logic, so no use in debating with you. You are so wrapped up in the percieved injustices to YOURSELF, that you condemn everyone else to your misery.

Homosexuality has been seen as a "disorder" or agains the norm since Christianity became a dominant religion. Before that man love was acceptable and openly practiced by most men, it wasnt until Christianity came about that the beliefs of monogmy and hetreosexuality dominat sexual behavior.

But that's neither here nor there.

Well, I'm not defending Tman (still not sure why he turned a discussion on the murder of a child into a discussion of gay marriage).

With that said, Judaism, at least before Christianity did not support "man love." Leviticus (part of the Law of Moses) was 100% against homosexuality. So, based on Judaism being around for a long time before Christianity, being against homosexuality was not started 2000 years ago, but much farther back.

[AZGrizFan]

Well, I'm not defending Tman (still not sure why he turned a discussion on the murder of a child into a discussion of gay marriage).

With that said, Judaism, at least before Christianity did not support "man love." Leviticus (part of the Law of Moses) was 100% against homosexuality. So, based on Judaism being around for a long time before Christianity, being against homosexuality was not started 2000 years ago, but much farther back.

Unless you were Greek, of course.

[Ibanez]

Homosexuality has been seen as a "disorder" or agains the norm since Christianity became a dominant religion. Before that man love was acceptable and openly practiced by most men, it wasnt until Christianity came about that the beliefs of monogmy and hetreosexuality dominat sexual behavior.

But that's neither here nor there.

Well, I'm not defending Tman (still not sure why he turned a discussion on the murder of a child into a discussion of gay marriage).

With that said, Judaism, at least before Christianity did not support "man love." Leviticus (part of the Law of Moses) was 100% against homosexuality. So, based on Judaism being around for a long time before Christianity, being against homosexuality was not started 2000 years ago, but much farther back.

Notice my use of the word "dominant". I didn't say it was 100% acceptable everywhere. Besides, you can't trust the bible.

[ASUMountaineer]

Well, I'm not defending Tman (still not sure why he turned a discussion on the murder of a child into a discussion of gay marriage).

With that said, Judaism, at least before Christianity did not support "man love." Leviticus (part of the Law of Moses) was 100% against homosexuality. So, based on Judaism being around for a long time before Christianity, being against homosexuality was not started 2000 years ago, but much farther back.

Notice my use of the word "dominant". I didn't say it was 100% acceptable everywhere. Besides, you can't trust the bible.

Well, ok I'm still not sure I agree with your premise, but that's ok. I will just again say that I don't think you can blame Christianity for all (or most) of the people who disagree with a homosexual lifestyle.

[BigApp]

I really cannot understand how anyone can defend this murder.

[dbackjon]

I really cannot understand how anyone can defend this murder.

I don't see anyone defending it