Dumb@$$ NY Lib claims pro-lifers are "out to kill women"

[Appaholic]

If those bombs hadn't been dropped, many more Japanese civilians and possibly American civilians would have died. Not many are aware, but Japan was only weeks from producing a smaller and cruder atomic weapon that they planned to drop on L.A. from a plane launched by a submarine. Their target date for attacking L.A. was November, 1945. Coincidentally, that was the same month that the invasion of the Japanese mainland was to have begun.

Well, there was another option...don't fight back.

We could have easily turned the other cheek instead of fighting back. Imagine all of the lives, many innocent, which could have been saved. We could have let God handle it....after all, those Japs weren't going to Heaven...so all the Christians could have had the last laugh. Win-win!

But that's not what believers do, is it? Situational ethics...kill when it is deemed convenient. Of course, convenience is really tough to nail down. Go on Crusades; play advisers to whack job kings and queens who were mostly a bunch of in-laws squabbling while their minions got slaughtered in the name of...what? Wipe out the Indians or convert them...savages. Save Libyan civilians...ignore tens of thousands of deaths elsewhere.

The inconsistency is mind-boggling.

Thank you Cluck...this was the point I was trying to make...the inconsistency and situational ethics ...

[SuperHornet]

No dice, Cluck. You know EXACTLY what murder is. Murder is the intentional unlawful taking of a human life.

Laws change locally all the time...and differ greatly all over the world.

Shouldn't be hard to put it in writing if you say I should know EXACTLY what murder is. So, please provide examples of when killing is OK and when is it not. I'm sure we'll have at least a few things we can agree upon and then work from there.

Typical of libs. Put the burden of proof on conservatives. That's always the M.O., isn't it.

Killing is OK during a just war when following the rules of war. Killing is OK when called for by a jury of one's peers or a judge after a proper conviction of murder or other death-penalty-associated crime. Abortion does NOT qualify.

[Chizzang]

Laws change locally all the time...and differ greatly all over the world.

Shouldn't be hard to put it in writing if you say I should know EXACTLY what murder is. So, please provide examples of when killing is OK and when is it not. I'm sure we'll have at least a few things we can agree upon and then work from there.

Typical of libs. Put the burden of proof on conservatives. That's always the M.O., isn't it.

Killing is OK during a just war when following the rules of war. Killing is OK when called for by a jury of one's peers or a judge after a proper conviction of murder or other death-penalty-associated crime. Abortion does NOT qualify.

He's no LIBERAL

you dumb tard

[Appaholic]

Define murder.

A discussion not many pro-choicers will have.

No dice, Cluck. You know EXACTLY what murder is. Murder is the intentional unlawful taking of a human life......Abortion is murder, pure and simple.

So which is it? Notice the inconsistency in your own argument....

[YoUDeeMan]

Pro-life advocates define humanity as beginning at conception.

This is the part most pro-choicers get hung up on. The reason I think it has to go back to conception is that I can't come up with a day when it is/isn't OK, who can?

Not a good thing to hang your hat on. If your reason to not kill is because you can't determine when a fetus is a person, and that we shouldn't kill a person, then you are riding down a slippery slope.

A lot of people get hung up on when it is OK to kill another person. We're killing some Taliban folks that would never do a single thing to an American simply because we are afraid that a few hundred Al Queda creeps might take over their country and eventually threaten the life of one of US. The Taliban are simply fighting to protect their homeland from an invasion.

We're killing a bunch of Quaddaffi's troops, the ones were were just selling guns to a few months back, simply because we...well, what the hell are we killing them for? And we are supporting many governments that are killing their own citizens...mostly innocent people who want a democracy.

So much killing, so little care.

So, yes, I am good with a gray area. Most people are. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion...I simply have an opinion that is a bit fluid towards particular situations.

[YoUDeeMan]

The decision should be the mother's...she is the one carrying the child

BTW, interesting choice of words.

Yeah, generally I'm an optimist.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Pro-life advocates define humanity as beginning at conception.

so a murder wrap and prison for a woman who miscarries? or just involuntary manslaughter?

[89Hen]

You imply that others opinions that are different than yours don't qualify as opinions...
and that's not an implication that's your own words

I'd think somewhere around when a baby can survive outside the womb (without taking that to extreme) is about right.

The decision should be the mother's...she is the one carrying the child and without whom it can't survive.

I am OK with a grey area...I really don't have to play God and decide when it is correct to kill and not to kill.

Cluck seems to say he really doesn't know or care to me.

[89Hen]

Not a good thing to hang your hat on. If your reason to not kill is because you can't determine when a fetus is a person, and that we shouldn't kill a person, then you are riding down a slippery slope.

Au contraire. The slippery slope is when you say you know it's wrong at 9 months, but is OK at some point. Is it OK at 8 months? at 6? at 4?...

[Chizzang]

Not a good thing to hang your hat on. If your reason to not kill is because you can't determine when a fetus is a person, and that we shouldn't kill a person, then you are riding down a slippery slope.

A lot of people get hung up on when it is OK to kill another person. We're killing some Taliban folks that would never do a single thing to an American simply because we are afraid that a few hundred Al Queda creeps might take over their country and eventually threaten the life of one of US. The Taliban are simply fighting to protect their homeland from an invasion.

We're killing a bunch of Quaddaffi's troops, the ones were were just selling guns to a few months back, simply because we...well, what the hell are we killing them for? And we are supporting many governments that are killing their own citizens...mostly innocent people who want a democracy.

So much killing, so little care.

So, yes, I am good with a gray area. Most people are. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion...I simply have an opinion that is a bit fluid towards particular situations.

Cluck U
I've laid this argument out a few times.. and no dice - they won't budge

BTW: I completely agree with you on this one (you Liberal you)
we kill all day - every day - everywhere - any time - for almost any reason - at the drop of a hat...
There is so much killing and so much willful destruction of human life going on it's hard for me to take the Pro-Life argument very seriously

I've also argued - and we all know this is true - that if men were the ones getting pregnant you could get an abortion at the airport or barber shop

[Appaholic]

You imply that others opinions that are different than yours don't qualify as opinions...
and that's not an implication that's your own words

I'd think somewhere around when a baby can survive outside the womb (without taking that to extreme) is about right.

The decision should be the mother's...she is the one carrying the child and without whom it can't survive.

I am OK with a grey area...I really don't have to play God and decide when it is correct to kill and not to kill.

Cluck seems to say he really doesn't know or care to me.

Probably because he doesn't...I know I don't...great, call it a life, call it a human life but it's no more a person to me than a raghead from Afghanistan who I'll never interact with....hence the reason I'm ok with aborting the fetus or unborn person while also being ok with some innocent person being killed in in a war on terror...shit happens, at least I'm consistent...

[89Hen]

I've also argued - and we all know this is true - that if men were the ones getting pregnant you could get an abortion at the airport or barber shop

Very original.

[89Hen]

call it a life, call it a human life but it's no more a person to me than a raghead from Afghanistan who I'll never interact with....hence the reason I'm ok with aborting the fetus or unborn person while also being ok with some innocent person being killed in in a war on terror...shit happens, at least I'm consistent...

and apparently dealing with some anger issues.

[Chizzang]

I've also argued - and we all know this is true - that if men were the ones getting pregnant you could get an abortion at the airport or barber shop

Very original.

It's true... (and you know it)
Unless you're completely delusional and dishonest about men - and we are men

[Appaholic]

call it a life, call it a human life but it's no more a person to me than a raghead from Afghanistan who I'll never interact with....hence the reason I'm ok with aborting the fetus or unborn person while also being ok with some innocent person being killed in in a war on terror...shit happens, at least I'm consistent...

and apparently dealing with some anger issues.

I'm comfortable with my stance. You're the one taking the bait of every opportunity to lead the charge of the light brigade. You've become the JoltinJoe of abortion threads...it's almost like you're still trying to convince yourself...

[89Hen]

I'm comfortable with my stance. You're the one taking the bait of every opportunity to lead the charge of the light brigade. You've become the JoltinJoe of abortion threads...it's almost like you're still trying to convince yourself...

I too am comfortable with my stance and I'm still trying to convince others. The fact that I'm not posting on threads about the war or killing in Darfur have no impact on my position.

[89Hen]

It's true... (and you know it)

It's hyperbole... (and you know it)

[Appaholic]

I too am comfortable with my stance and I'm still trying to convince others.

You must be a glutton for punishment. I admire your tenacity. It's been my experience that you have 2 camps with regard to volatile issues such as abortion: the True Believers (yourself, TTBF) who know they are right, could find no common ground & don't want to find common ground with purveyors of the opposing view and wouldn't change their mind if their life depended upon it....and then you have the people like Chizzang, Cluck U and myself who can see the inconsistency & validity in both arguments but don't care either way as it does not directly affect us..

Good luck with that...

[89Hen]

and then you have the people like Chizzang, Cluck U and myself who can see the inconsistency & validity in both arguments but don't care either way as it does not directly affect us..

Great philosophy. People torturing and killing their dogs for shits a giggles doesn't directly affect you either. You seem to have strong feelings about that.

[Appaholic]

and then you have the people like Chizzang, Cluck U and myself who can see the inconsistency & validity in both arguments but don't care either way as it does not directly affect us..

Great philosophy. People torturing and killing their dogs for shits a giggles doesn't directly affect you either. You seem to have strong feelings about that.

Sure I do....dogs have never disturbed my dinner or movie....

[89Hen]

Great philosophy. People torturing and killing their dogs for shits a giggles doesn't directly affect you either. You seem to have strong feelings about that.

Sure I do....dogs have never disturbed my dinner or movie....

mainejeff, how did you get appaholic's password?

[Appaholic]

Sure I do....dogs have never disturbed my dinner or movie....

mainejeff, how did you get appaholic's password?

well played sir

[89Hen]

the True Believers (yourself, TTBF) who know they are right, could find no common ground & don't want to find common ground with purveyors of the opposing view and wouldn't change their mind if their life depended upon it....

BTW, why would I want to find common ground when I'm right?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I too am comfortable with my stance and I'm still trying to convince others.

You must be a glutton for punishment. I admire your tenacity. It's been my experience that you have 2 camps with regard to volatile issues such as abortion: the True Believers (yourself, TTBF) who know they are right, could find no common ground & don't want to find common ground with purveyors of the opposing view and wouldn't change their mind if their life depended upon it....and then you have the people like Chizzang, Cluck U and myself who can see the inconsistency & validity in both arguments but don't care either way as it does not directly affect us..

Good luck with that...

it's funny you should say that about me - because, and especially on this issue... I'm not a true believer at all. I am a died-in-the-wool pragmatist. I have my core values, but I see many paths to the same goal and a lifetime in campaigns has taught me the importance of not making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I frankly wish none of this discussion was necessary - I don't like the idea of abortion either - I'm just a realist who knows that no legislation banning it would ever end it anyway. moreover, i think the biggest sin we commit is wasting our time and energy trying to find common ground on the answer to abortion legal? yes or no. when what we should be focused on is the common and shared feeling that what we really ought to be doing is reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies - which would drive the number of abortions down as a result.

[Wedgebuster]

You must be a glutton for punishment. I admire your tenacity. It's been my experience that you have 2 camps with regard to volatile issues such as abortion: the True Believers (yourself, TTBF) who know they are right, could find no common ground & don't want to find common ground with purveyors of the opposing view and wouldn't change their mind if their life depended upon it....and then you have the people like Chizzang, Cluck U and myself who can see the inconsistency & validity in both arguments but don't care either way as it does not directly affect us..

Good luck with that...

it's funny you should say that about me - because, and especially on this issue... I'm not a true believer at all. I am a died-in-the-wool pragmatist. I have my core values, but I see many paths to the same goal and a lifetime in campaigns has taught me the importance of not making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I frankly wish none of this discussion was necessary - I don't like the idea of abortion either - I'm just a realist who knows that no legislation banning it would ever end it anyway. moreover, i think the biggest sin we commit is wasting our time and energy trying to find common ground on the answer to abortion legal? yes or no. when what we should be focused on is the common and shared feeling that what we really ought to be doing is reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies - which would drive the number of abortions down as a result.

Planned parenthood?