Right wing Radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture

[Cleets Part 2]

Which have nothing to do with a discussion of waterboarding and torture.

And everything to do with killing civilians, which is the excuse being offered here to legitimize torture.

That's a type of cyclical logic "houndawg"
You're going to need to dumb this down... you've lost him already

[native]

Where? Haditha? That turns out to have been a lie.

What other lies are you willing to re-peddle?

How do you not know this..?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm

Thank you for the response, Cleets.

The BBC link and referenced studies within apply to all civilian casualties, including victims of religious violence, internal terrorism and civil war. Victims of collateral damage from American bombs are not separately parsed. It definitiely does not support the proposition that we "...killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years..."

So what is your new proposition? After you spew out your typical personal disparagements, would you please take the time to use your intellect and Ivy League education to craft a reasonable and informed response?

[Cleets Part 2]

How do you not know this..?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm

Thank you for the response, Cleets.

The BBC link and referenced studies within apply to all civilian casualties, including victims of religious violence, internal terrorism and civil war. Victims of collateral damage from American bombs are not separately parsed. It definitiely does not support the proposition that we "...killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years..."

So what is your new proposition? After you spew out your typical personal disparagements, would you please take the time to use your intellect and Ivy League education to craft a reasonable and informed response?

I'm here for my own personal amusement... but thanks for the fabulous offer
empty suit reference 4...3...2...

[houndawg]

And everything to do with killing civilians, which is the excuse being offered here to legitimize torture.

That's a type of cyclical logic "houndawg"
You're going to need to dumb this down... you've lost him already

None so blind as he who will not see....

[Cleets Part 2]

That's a type of cyclical logic "houndawg"
You're going to need to dumb this down... you've lost him already

None so blind as he who will not see....

or this little ditty...
My Country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober"

It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows-- Epictetus (c.55-c.135)

Good luck Houndawg and thanks for all the fish

Oh... and as I stated already: I do not have an opinion on military torture

[BlueHen86]

Which have nothing to do with a discussion of waterboarding and torture.

And everything to do with killing civilians, which is the excuse being offered here to legitimize torture.

So you have an issue with civilians being accidentally killed as a side effect of warfare, but you are okay with terrorists intentionally killing people.

[BlueHen86]

None so blind as he who will not see....

or this little ditty...
My Country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober"

It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows-- Epictetus (c.55-c.135)

Good luck Houndawg and thanks for all the fish

Oh... and as I stated already: I do not have an opinion on military torture

Oh, so you just chimed in to imply that I am dumb. Very nice.

[CarlottaCorday]

I love Jesse Ventura in the real sense of that word. Greatest Hero status to ya, Jesse, for beating the 2-sides-of-one-creature known in Newsspeak as "our two political parties." I'll never forget how warm it made my heart to get up in the morning, turn on the TV, and find out you were governor of Minnesota. And nobody hated you more than the Republicans! (I'm still a Democrat though, as long as one Durbin or Kucinich still has a D next to his name.)

I'm thrilled at the Mancow for doing this. He slapped Hannity in the face. I did not see that coming!

Watch now, for Mancow to be banished by the wacked-out right. He's appearing on Countdown with Keith Olbermann next week. He's on his way out as a rightie, I predict. I also belive in conversion. It happens all the time. Half of all year-2004 republicans are now democrats or independents. But if Mancow is scorned by the left despite his manliness that day, he'll just wind up homeless. Conversion is better.

Re. Hasslebeck, I don't watch The View except for the snippets shown on other programs and at blogs, but I thought she was a random conservative. She isn't. She's robotic, clearly sent out with weekly talking points and marching orders, and no ability to fill in gaps with good ad lib. ("You're not going to put me in a half-nelson, are you?" You loud, baritone bully. Look how little I am, and how big you are. Shut up!) It's as if someone is holding her relatives at gunpoint and if she says one thing wrong, her mom or sister gets it.

[native]

Thank you for the response, Cleets.

The BBC link and referenced studies within apply to all civilian casualties, including victims of religious violence, internal terrorism and civil war. Victims of collateral damage from American bombs are not separately parsed. It definitiely does not support the proposition that we "...killed thirty times as many civilians as they have during the past six years..."

So what is your new proposition? After you spew out your typical personal disparagements, would you please take the time to use your intellect and Ivy League education to craft a reasonable and informed response?

I'm here for my own personal amusement... but thanks for the fabulous offer
empty suit reference 4...3...2...

OK. Understand the personal amsement part. I feel badly about previously calling you a name and had hoped that my riding you in earlier posts would have been perceived as a challenge and not an insult.

I appreciate the Epictetus reference, although the quote applies to your "side," not mine.

It is sad to me that you will not engage on substance, Cleets, because you could probably teach us all a lot. If you can master the math and complexities of photon beams or whatever it is you do, you could easily pick apart social "science" statistics (e.g., the methodology for the Lancet report referenced in the BBC link), for the benefit of all.

Cheers!

[Cleets Part 2]

I'm here for my own personal amusement... but thanks for the fabulous offer
empty suit reference 4...3...2...

OK. Understand the personal amsement part. I feel badly about previously calling you a name and had hoped that my riding you in earlier posts would have been perceived as a challenge and not an insult.

I appreciate the Epictetus reference, although the quote applies to your "side," not mine.

It is sad to me that you will not engage on substance, Cleets, because you could probably teach us all a lot. If you can master the math and complexities of photon beams or whatever it is you do, you could easily pick apart social "science" statistics (e.g., the methodology for the Lancet report referenced in the BBC link), for the benefit of all.

Cheers!

Dear native,
The Epictetus quote applies to anyone who argues a point - defends it on a personal level - then becomes offended...
Which is why I started with the Patriotic quote: "My Mother Drunk or Sober"...

all in good fun (I hope)

And I don't have anything to teach anybody
I'm not a teacher I'm a student - in fact the worst kind of student

and Vector based photonics, Quadrature Amplitude Modulation and Abstract Algorithmic analysis do not qualify me to lecture anybody on ethics or social science... however it won't stop me from publicly making an ass of myself and someone else (if I can)



I've got a flight to Montana to catch... see you soon snookums

[native]

OK. Understand the personal amsement part. I feel badly about previously calling you a name and had hoped that my riding you in earlier posts would have been perceived as a challenge and not an insult.

I appreciate the Epictetus reference, although the quote applies to your "side," not mine.

It is sad to me that you will not engage on substance, Cleets, because you could probably teach us all a lot. If you can master the math and complexities of photon beams or whatever it is you do, you could easily pick apart social "science" statistics (e.g., the methodology for the Lancet report referenced in the BBC link), for the benefit of all.

Cheers!

Dear native,
The Epictetus quote applies to anyone who argues a point - defends it on a personal level - then becomes offended...
Which is why I started with the Patriotic quote: "My Mother Drunk or Sober"...

all in good fun (I hope)

And I don't have anything to teach anybody
I'm not a teacher I'm a student - in fact the worst kind of student

and Vector based photonics, Quadrature Amplitude Modulation and Abstract Algorithmic analysis do not qualify me to lecture anybody on ethics or social science... however it won't stop me from publicly making an ass of myself and someone else (if I can)



I've got a flight to Montana to catch... see you soon snookums

We are all students and we are all teachers.

Monkey see, monkey do...

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya....

[houndawg]

And everything to do with killing civilians, which is the excuse being offered here to legitimize torture.

So you have an issue with civilians being accidentally killed as a side effect of warfare, but you are okay with terrorists intentionally killing people.

I don't know how you made that leap, but, no.

I trying to point out that in the battle for public opinion the families of civilians accidently killed by a remote controlled missle of ours just might not see a lot of difference between us and the bad guys. An independent observer sees two sides that both torture and both kill innocent bystanders with remote controlled bombs. My wackjob friends here hold the country to a lower standard, that's all. Call me old school but I want more from my country than "we don't torture as much as they do".

[houndawg]

None so blind as he who will not see....

or this little ditty...
My Country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober"

It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows-- Epictetus (c.55-c.135)

Good luck Houndawg and thanks for all the fish

Oh... and as I stated already: I do not have an opinion on military torture

So long Cleets, don't forget your towel. And Don't Panic.

[GreenDay17]

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster”


Friedrich Nietzsche (German classical Scholar, Philosopher and Critic of culture, 1844-1900.)

[native]

So you have an issue with civilians being accidentally killed as a side effect of warfare, but you are okay with terrorists intentionally killing people.

I don't know how you made that leap, but, no.

I trying to point out that in the battle for public opinion the families of civilians accidently killed by a remote controlled missle of ours just might not see a lot of difference between us and the bad guys. An independent observer sees two sides that both torture and both kill innocent bystanders with remote controlled bombs. My wackjob friends here hold the country to a lower standard, that's all. Call me old school but I want more from my country than "we don't torture as much as they do".

Gee, Houndawg! Once again, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, we agree.

[BlueHen86]

So you have an issue with civilians being accidentally killed as a side effect of warfare, but you are okay with terrorists intentionally killing people.

I don't know how you made that leap, but, no.

I trying to point out that in the battle for public opinion the families of civilians accidently killed by a remote controlled missle of ours just might not see a lot of difference between us and the bad guys. An independent observer sees two sides that both torture and both kill innocent bystanders with remote controlled bombs. My wackjob friends here hold the country to a lower standard, that's all. Call me old school but I want more from my country than "we don't torture as much as they do".

There is a big difference though -intent. When a stray bomb kills civilians it's an accident, an unfortunate side effect of warfare. Whan a terrorist kills civilians it's intentional.

While we try an make our bombs "smarter" so that they will hit their target an minimize civilian casualties, terrorists are figuring out ways to kill more civilians.

Your argument seems to be that we should not torture because we already kill people with stray bombs. Does that mean that you would be okay with torture if we decided to stop bombing? Or are you suggesting that we don't do either one? Not bombing enemy targets will make us less efffective militarily, but the rest of the world will like us, so that counts for something.

If you want to make an anti-torture argument, I think you should base it on morality and humanity. You could also question the effectiveness of it. There is even some merit in citing the court of world opinion which you have done many times. I just think linking terrorism to stray bombs is a weak argument.

[houndawg]

I don't know how you made that leap, but, no.

I trying to point out that in the battle for public opinion the families of civilians accidently killed by a remote controlled missle of ours just might not see a lot of difference between us and the bad guys. An independent observer sees two sides that both torture and both kill innocent bystanders with remote controlled bombs. My wackjob friends here hold the country to a lower standard, that's all. Call me old school but I want more from my country than "we don't torture as much as they do".

There is a big difference though -intent. When a stray bomb kills civilians it's an accident, an unfortunate side effect of warfare. Whan a terrorist kills civilians it's intentional.

While we try an make our bombs "smarter" so that they will hit their target an minimize civilian casualties, terrorists are figuring out ways to kill more civilians.

Your argument seems to be that we should not torture because we already kill people with stray bombs. Does that mean that you would be okay with torture if we decided to stop bombing? Or are you suggesting that we don't do either one? Not bombing enemy targets will make us less efffective militarily, but the rest of the world will like us, so that counts for something.

If you want to make an anti-torture argument, I think you should base it on morality and humanity. You could also question the effectiveness of it. There is even some merit in citing the court of world opinion which you have done many times. I just think linking terrorism to stray bombs is a weak argument.

That's not what it's intended to be and I think you're stretching a little to find that.

We shouldn't torture because governments should not have the right to torture those they govern. Period.

Somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 of the Iraqis whom we assured we were making safe from a tyrant have died at our hand, accidently or not, while the perpetrator of the attack on the WTC still walks free and sends holiday greetings by video. Throw in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and the difference between the bad guys and the good guys becomes just difference of degree, not a difference of philosophy.

[BlueHen86]

That's not what it's intended to be and I think you're stretching a little to find that.

We shouldn't torture because governments should not have the right to torture those they govern. Period.

Somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 of the Iraqis whom we assured we were making safe from a tyrant have died at our hand, accidently or not, while the perpetrator of the attack on the WTC still walks free and sends holiday greetings by video. Throw in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and the difference between the bad guys and the good guys becomes just difference of degree, not a difference of philosophy.

I can respect that position.

Here is a hypothetical situation to consider - suppose that on 9/11 the passengers of one of the planes were able to retake it and land it safely. As a result, the U.S. government had a handful of known terrorists as prisoners. These terrorists would be able to tell us who planned 9/11 and might be able to tell us of other planned attacks.

In the above descibed situation I would be okay with waterboarding them to gain additional information. If your not, I can understand that. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[CID1990]

To Mancow, waterboarding is torture.

To me, beating dead horses is torture.

[CID1990]

THOUSANDS have been through it as part of training, TC. They are not all lining up to complain about it.

What do they call it in training?

"Men, this is a form of enhanced interrogation you may receive if captured. It is not torture and is perfectly legit under the Geneva Convention, hell some of them rag-heads been 'boarded a couple hundred times, but we thought you should be aware of it so you won't be surprised if you get captured."

I could never understand why they did the whole water torture thing at SERE. If our guys get caught, they are not going to have water forced down their throats. Instead, they are going to have their fingernails pulled out, their balls shocked and they are going to have their shoulders dislocated. Seems like the water training is more appropriate if they plan to turn Jihadi and join Al Qaeda.

[Col Hogan]

I'm not going to get into the particulars, but just an observation...

I will wager a 12 year old bottle of very good Scotch that 99% of what this radio entertainer says is rejected by most of those on this thread who are holding his "discovery" up as proof they are correct on this one particular issue...

So, this guy is that credible...

[native]

What do they call it in training?

"Men, this is a form of enhanced interrogation you may receive if captured. It is not torture and is perfectly legit under the Geneva Convention, hell some of them rag-heads been 'boarded a couple hundred times, but we thought you should be aware of it so you won't be surprised if you get captured."

I could never understand why they did the whole water torture thing at SERE. If our guys get caught, they are not going to have water forced down their throats. Instead, they are going to have their fingernails pulled out, their balls shocked and they are going to have their shoulders dislocated. Seems like the water training is more appropriate if they plan to turn Jihadi and join Al Qaeda.

Great point!

They never told us $h!t in the day. I just figured they probably wouldn't kill us or permanently damage us in training.

But the point is not really what they do to you in training but what you learn about yourself and - dare I say it - the "zen" of being a POW. After being captured, my friend had his leg broken with a steel pipe. Nobody gets their leg broken with a steel pipe in training, but the training helped him keep his head and deal with the situation.

Honestly, though, if I had to choose between the shock treatments, the steel pipe, the dislocated shoulder, the fingernail removals, or the waterboarding, I am going to pick the waterboarding every time!

[JoltinJoe]

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster”


Friedrich Nietzsche (German classical Scholar, Philosopher and Critic of culture, 1844-1900.)

Not quite the quote I would expect from Nietzsche. Are you sure he said it? I googled it, and saw this quote attributed to him, but I also saw this quote, which sounds more like him: “Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured?”

Anyway, quoting Nietzsche isn't going to win over a lot of people to your viewpoint. I thought quoting Nietzsche went out after the Third Reich.

[D1B]

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster”


Friedrich Nietzsche (German classical Scholar, Philosopher and Critic of culture, 1844-1900.)

Not quite the quote I would expect from Nietzsche. Are you sure he said it? I googled it, and saw this quote attributed to him, but I also saw this quote, which sounds more like him: “Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured?”

Anyway, quoting Nietzsche isn't going to win over a lot of people to your viewpoint. I thought quoting Nietzsche went out after the Third Reich.

Why?

[D1B]

SMFH at the conks and Joltin Joes of the world: violent killers, no better than and more dangerous than terrorists.