Why Trump Will Win Again

[kalm]

That’s my point. You sling the phrase command economy around hoping to hit a true Marxist. Your arm must be getting tired by now.

It’s a loaded, big ass question you ask but there are numerous things that can help with economic justice and without turning us into the Soviet States of America. I’m quite sure you know of and have studied some them.

But let me guess...your next response will be a slippery slope argument about letting the genie out of the bottle or something along those lines...

That’s a lot of deflection but you’ve produced JSO amounts of complaints with few details about your cure.

And you cheerlead the most mush headed socialist here so I’m not sure what assumptions you expect people to make

When you offer details that don’t involve simply picking a different set of winners then I’ll weigh that against what is, up until now, a safe assumption about your solutions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let’s start with government picking winners and losers. I share your concerns but is that what you think defines a command economy?

[CID1990]

That’s a lot of deflection but you’ve produced JSO amounts of complaints with few details about your cure.

And you cheerlead the most mush headed socialist here so I’m not sure what assumptions you expect people to make

When you offer details that don’t involve simply picking a different set of winners then I’ll weigh that against what is, up until now, a safe assumption about your solutions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let’s start with government picking winners and losers. I share your concerns but is that what you think defines a command economy?

No klam, let’s not play the same oversimplification game that you do with libertarianism

Obviously “picking winners and losers” describes a wide range of anti capitalist strategies

Like I said, I’m not the one moaning about our messed up economic model - you are. So let’s hear your non-radical solutions Mr Moderate

[CID1990]

No klam, let’s not play the same oversimplification game that you do with libertarianism

Why not? You do it with liberalism.

I’m not the one whining for change, klam

I’m mostly happy with the way things are... the majority of my changes are local level stuff. I think the founders did a pretty damn good job

[kalm]

Let’s start with government picking winners and losers. I share your concerns but is that what you think defines a command economy?

No klam, let’s not play the same oversimplification game that you do with libertarianism

Obviously “picking winners and losers” describes a wide range of anti capitalist strategies

Like I said, I’m not the one moaning about our messed up economic model - you are. So let’s hear your non-radical solutions Mr Moderate

So are my parameters to avoid a command economy or anti-capitalist strategies? I mean if they’re the same, and you think nothing needs to be fixed, than you might want to look around and see all the instances where government currently picks winners and losers. Or else you might just be a Marxist.

For example on a macro level...the deferred maintenance on infrastructure versus military spending on wars of choice.

[kalm]

Why not? You do it with liberalism.

I’m not the one whining for change, klam

I’m mostly happy with the way things are... the majority of my changes are local level stuff. I think the founders did a pretty damn good job

No...you’re just whining AGAINST change like any stick in the mud fan of plutocracy does.

[CID1990]

No klam, let’s not play the same oversimplification game that you do with libertarianism

Obviously “picking winners and losers” describes a wide range of anti capitalist strategies

Like I said, I’m not the one moaning about our messed up economic model - you are. So let’s hear your non-radical solutions Mr Moderate

So are my parameters to avoid a command economy or anti-capitalist strategies? I mean if they’re the same, and you think nothing needs to be fixed, than you might want to look around and see all the instances where government currently picks winners and losers. Or else you might just be a Marxist.

For example on a macro level...the deferred maintenance on infrastructure versus military spending on wars of choice.

I don’t know - maybe you have an ultra creative plan, never before heard of or tried... one that involves lots of capitalistic liberty goodness!

I’m all ears

I’m waiting for something unheard of and untried by YOU - something with a few details and not veiled or cryptic so you can say you didn’t say what you said

[UNI88]

Thoughtful Facebook post from June 2019 ...

“I’m sitting in a small coffee shop near Nokomis trying to think of what to write about. I scroll through my newsfeed on my phone looking at the latest headlines of Democratic candidates calling for policies to “fix” the so-called injustices of capitalism.

I put my phone down and continue to look around. I see people talking freely, working on their MacBook’s, ordering food they get in an instant, seeing cars go by outside, and it dawned on me.

We live in the most privileged time in the most prosperous nation and we’ve become completely blind to it. Vehicles, food, technology, freedom to associate with whom we choose. These things are so ingrained in our American way of life we don’t give them a second thought. We are so well off here in the United States that our poverty line begins 31 times above the global average. Thirty. One. Times.

Virtually no one in the United States is considered poor by global standards. Yet, in a time where we can order a product off Amazon with one click and have it at our doorstep the next day, we are unappreciative, unsatisfied, and ungrateful.

Our unappreciation is evident as the popularity of socialist policies among my generation continues to grow. Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez recently said to Newsweek talking about the millennial generation, “An entire generation, which is now becoming one of the largest electorates in America, came of age and never saw American prosperity.”

Never saw American prosperity. Let that sink in. When I first read that statement, I thought to myself, that was quite literally the most entitled and factually illiterate thing I’ve ever heard in my 26 years on this earth. Now, I’m not attributing Miss Ocasio-Cortez’s words to outright dishonesty. I do think she whole-heartedly believes the words she said to be true. Many young people agree with her, which is entirely misguided. My generation is being indoctrinated by a mainstream narrative to actually believe we have never seen prosperity. I know this first hand, I went to college, let’s just say I didn’t have the popular opinion, but I digress.

Let me lay down some universal truths really quick. The United States of America has lifted more people out of abject poverty, spread more freedom and democracy, and has created more innovation in technology and medicine than any other nation in human history. Not only that but our citizenry continually breaks world records with charitable donations, the rags to riches story is not only possible in America but not uncommon, we have the strongest purchasing power on earth, and we encompass 25% of the world’s GDP.

The list goes on. However, these universal truths don’t matter. We are told that income inequality is an existential crisis (even though this is not an indicator of prosperity, some of the poorest countries in the world have low-income inequality), we are told that we are oppressed by capitalism (even though it’s brought about more freedom and wealth to the most people than any other system in world history), we are told that the only way we will acquire the benefits of true prosperity is through socialism and centralization of federal power (even though history has proven time and again this only brings tyranny and suffering).

Why then, with all of the overwhelming evidence around us, evidence that I can even see sitting at a coffee shop, do we not view this as prosperity?

We have people who are dying to get into our country. People around the world destitute and truly impoverished. Yet, we have a young generation convinced they’ve never seen prosperity, and as a result, elect politicians dead set on taking steps towards abolishing capitalism. Why?

The answer is this, my generation has ONLY seen prosperity. We have no contrast. We didn’t live in the great depression, or live through two world wars, or see the rise and fall of socialism and communism. We don’t know what it’s like not to live without the internet, without cars, without smartphones. We don’t have a lack of prosperity problem. We have an entitlement problem, an ungratefulness problem, and it’s spreading like a plague.

With the current political climate giving rise to the misguided idea of a socialist utopia, will we see the light? Or will we have to lose it all to realize that what we have now is true prosperity? Destroying the free market will undo what millions of people have died to achieve.

My generation is becoming the largest voting bloc in the country. We have an opportunity to continue to propel us forward with the gifts capitalism and democracy has given us. The other option is that we can fall into the trap of entitlement and relapse into restrictive socialist destitution. The choice doesn’t seem too hard, does it?”

[Baldy]

I'm talking about basing a society on those beliefs, and this is exactly what Trip is suggesting..."people should take care of the community first instead of themselves".

Literally every society in history, including the US, is based on community and not the individual. Otherwise we wouldn't have governments, or anything really. I don't know what you think humanity is.

Oh wow, I thought you were just full of bad ideas. I had no idea you were not that well read. My apologies.

Every single "Westernized" society is based on the rights of the individual, period. Individuals create societies and governments under a social contract. The sole purpose of this contract is to protect the rights of each individual citizen. The type of contract is what differentiates the US from the UK, or Denmark, or Germany, or Chile, etc.

This is pure elementary Enlightenment Philosophy 101. Please do yourself a favor and read John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, hell, even Sigmund Freud on this subject.

[Ibanez]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

FFS, Trip. If you don't agree, then GTFO.

[Ibanez]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

It's clear that you have no idea what the USSR did to achieve transform from that "poor agrarian society". It wasn't unicorns and faries following the Revolution.


And you favor a Confederacy. We've tried it. It didn't work.

[Winterborn]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

It's clear that you have no idea what the USSR did to achieve transform from that "poor agrarian society". It wasn't unicorns and faries following the Revolution.


And you favor a Confederacy. We've tried it. It didn't work.

Stalin killed 20+ million to jump start that process.

There was a saying that the Soviet factory workers had: "They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work".

[kalm]

Thoughtful Facebook post from June 2019 ...

“I’m sitting in a small coffee shop near Nokomis trying to think of what to write about. I scroll through my newsfeed on my phone looking at the latest headlines of Democratic candidates calling for policies to “fix” the so-called injustices of capitalism.

I put my phone down and continue to look around. I see people talking freely, working on their MacBook’s, ordering food they get in an instant, seeing cars go by outside, and it dawned on me.

We live in the most privileged time in the most prosperous nation and we’ve become completely blind to it. Vehicles, food, technology, freedom to associate with whom we choose. These things are so ingrained in our American way of life we don’t give them a second thought. We are so well off here in the United States that our poverty line begins 31 times above the global average. Thirty. One. Times.

Virtually no one in the United States is considered poor by global standards. Yet, in a time where we can order a product off Amazon with one click and have it at our doorstep the next day, we are unappreciative, unsatisfied, and ungrateful.

Our unappreciation is evident as the popularity of socialist policies among my generation continues to grow. Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez recently said to Newsweek talking about the millennial generation, “An entire generation, which is now becoming one of the largest electorates in America, came of age and never saw American prosperity.”

Never saw American prosperity. Let that sink in. When I first read that statement, I thought to myself, that was quite literally the most entitled and factually illiterate thing I’ve ever heard in my 26 years on this earth. Now, I’m not attributing Miss Ocasio-Cortez’s words to outright dishonesty. I do think she whole-heartedly believes the words she said to be true. Many young people agree with her, which is entirely misguided. My generation is being indoctrinated by a mainstream narrative to actually believe we have never seen prosperity. I know this first hand, I went to college, let’s just say I didn’t have the popular opinion, but I digress.

Let me lay down some universal truths really quick. The United States of America has lifted more people out of abject poverty, spread more freedom and democracy, and has created more innovation in technology and medicine than any other nation in human history. Not only that but our citizenry continually breaks world records with charitable donations, the rags to riches story is not only possible in America but not uncommon, we have the strongest purchasing power on earth, and we encompass 25% of the world’s GDP.

The list goes on. However, these universal truths don’t matter. We are told that income inequality is an existential crisis (even though this is not an indicator of prosperity, some of the poorest countries in the world have low-income inequality), we are told that we are oppressed by capitalism (even though it’s brought about more freedom and wealth to the most people than any other system in world history), we are told that the only way we will acquire the benefits of true prosperity is through socialism and centralization of federal power (even though history has proven time and again this only brings tyranny and suffering).

Why then, with all of the overwhelming evidence around us, evidence that I can even see sitting at a coffee shop, do we not view this as prosperity?

We have people who are dying to get into our country. People around the world destitute and truly impoverished. Yet, we have a young generation convinced they’ve never seen prosperity, and as a result, elect politicians dead set on taking steps towards abolishing capitalism. Why?

The answer is this, my generation has ONLY seen prosperity. We have no contrast. We didn’t live in the great depression, or live through two world wars, or see the rise and fall of socialism and communism. We don’t know what it’s like not to live without the internet, without cars, without smartphones. We don’t have a lack of prosperity problem. We have an entitlement problem, an ungratefulness problem, and it’s spreading like a plague.

With the current political climate giving rise to the misguided idea of a socialist utopia, will we see the light? Or will we have to lose it all to realize that what we have now is true prosperity? Destroying the free market will undo what millions of people have died to achieve.

My generation is becoming the largest voting bloc in the country. We have an opportunity to continue to propel us forward with the gifts capitalism and democracy has given us. The other option is that we can fall into the trap of entitlement and relapse into restrictive socialist destitution. The choice doesn’t seem too hard, does it?”

Some VERY valid points.

But that generation also went through the Great Recession and saw their parents get laid off or get foreclosed on, or work multiple jobs to maintain that standard of living and provide for them, or declare bankruptcy due overwhelming healthcare costs all at the expense of greed. Coddled and ungrateful? Sure. But that same light can be cast on all of us. It doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t sensibly regulate capitalism and/or re-prioritize what we choose to spend money on as a society.

[kalm]

So are my parameters to avoid a command economy or anti-capitalist strategies? I mean if they’re the same, and you think nothing needs to be fixed, than you might want to look around and see all the instances where government currently picks winners and losers. Or else you might just be a Marxist.

For example on a macro level...the deferred maintenance on infrastructure versus military spending on wars of choice.

I don’t know - maybe you have an ultra creative plan, never before heard of or tried... one that involves lots of capitalistic liberty goodness!

I’m all ears

I’m waiting for something unheard of and untried by YOU - something with a few details and not veiled or cryptic so you can say you didn’t say what you said

Why does it have to be unheard of or untried? You already know the causes and the fixes. Start with your idea of small farmers providing subsidized lunches and why that won’t happen as explained by Ibanez. The glaringly obvious first step is getting money out of politics. Next, invest in human and material infrastructure that provides a ROI versus bombs.

[Baldy]

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

FFS, Trip. If you don't agree, then GTFO.

Trip, you have three choices.

1. Get the friends who agree that you all were "randomly" born into this awful current social contract to organize and change the contract. The enlightened founders even gave you a direct path, OR...

2. ¡Viva la Revolución! OR...

3. Pack your shit and don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

[AZGrizFan]

I see trip went full retard in this thread.

So what's new?

[CID1990]

I see trip went full retard in this thread.

So what's new?

He has a cheering section of one.

3 guesses who that is, first 2 guesses don’t count


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ivytalk]

I see trip went full retard in this thread.

So what's new?

He has a cheering section of one.

3 guesses who that is, first 2 guesses don’t count


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It must suck to be an online father-figure.

[CID1990]

He has a cheering section of one.

3 guesses who that is, first 2 guesses don’t count


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It must suck to be an online father-figure.

Like Che’s poor dad stuck back in Argentina during the Motorcycle Diaries


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[kalm]

It must suck to be an online father-figure.

Like Che’s poor dad stuck back in Argentina during the Motorcycle Diaries


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Other viewpoints scary! Hurt earballs!

[kalm]

He has a cheering section of one.

3 guesses who that is, first 2 guesses don’t count


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It must suck to be an online father-figure.

I would be proud to have Trip as a son. I wouldn’t agree with always but at least he’s thinking.

[93henfan]

It must suck to be an online father-figure.

I would be proud to have Trip as a son. I wouldn’t agree with always but at least he’s thinking.

I've met him twice and enjoyed his company both times. Optimistic, upbeat, and likable. But we didn't discuss politics a whole lot!

Oh, and Obama was still the President.

[AZGrizFan]

I would be proud to have Trip as a son. I wouldn’t agree with always but at least he’s thinking.

I've met him twice and enjoyed his company both times. Optimistic, upbeat, and likable. But we didn't discuss politics a whole lot!

Oh, and Obama was still the President.

[CID1990]

Like Che’s poor dad stuck back in Argentina during the Motorcycle Diaries


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Other viewpoints scary! Hurt earballs!

Viewpoints that don’t follow logical processes to their endpoints are the stuff of “like if you agree” Facebook memes

Incomplete and frequently counterfactual


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[kalm]

Other viewpoints scary! Hurt earballs!

Viewpoints that don’t follow logical processes to their endpoints are the stuff of “like if you agree” Facebook memes

Incomplete and frequently counterfactual


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kind of like resorting to ad hominem attacks when your doctrinaire conservative values are challenged?

[kalm]

PS: I love you CID!

No homo.