The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

The CIA has a history of manipulation and psy-ops?

GTFO!

So what have they specifically done/lied about/gotten wrong in the Ukraine war?

Provocation via a known failed policy (see Crimea circa 2014) to start this whole mess.

What?

[houndawg]

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".

The mass graves are real, but the decision to bury the deceased in a mass grave was made by the local authorities in consultations with clergy after the morgue was overflowing. Deceased people, including those who had died from natural causes and shooting by both sides, were buried there.

I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

One-sided? In what way

[Ibanez]

Remember folks, the goal with the propaganda isn't to get US/NATO boots on the ground...no one is saying that...

So, unverified and unknown Twitter profiles and posts are BETTER than multiple government intelligence sources?

I find your trust and denial of sources to be curious. It's like your Hunter Biden crack pipe comment - you believe that Hunter fell asleep with a crack pipe in his mouth and then took a picture vs that being staged but you won't believe satellite imagery and battle field reports from people who are actually in the thick of it.

It's ok and necessary to question but I think you're falling victim to propaganda.

[SeattleGriz]

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".



I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

One-sided? In what way

That those deaths were solely due to Russia. You do know Bucha was being shelled by the Ukrainians don't you? You think the Ukrainians did nothing to try and remove the Russians?

[GannonFan]

One-sided? In what way

That those deaths were solely due to Russia. You do know Bucha was being shelled by the Ukrainians don't you? You think the Ukrainians did nothing to try and remove the Russians?

But the war is one-sided - if Russia hadn't decided to invade another sovereign nation, none of these deaths would occur. There was and continues to be no justification for Russia to have invaded. Russia's existence wasn't in jeopardy, the only thing being challenged was the ability for Russia to politically, economically, and socially dominate its neighbors. That's not an existential threat.

And maybe Ukrainian attacks on Bucha to force out the Russians may have killed some civilians, but it probably didn't kill the civilians who had their hands tied behind their backs and who had gunshot wounds to the heads.

[SeattleGriz]

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".



I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

Do you have a link to that?

https://archive.ph/pOlhp

Down near the bottom of the article. Was on CNN.

Hasty burials in mass grave.

Shelling, live fire, and trigger-happy Russian soldiers made it too dangerous for those injured in the assault on Bucha to seek treatment at the local hospital in the center of town, according to residents.
The local morgue in Bucha ran out of space as deaths mounted in March; to deal with all the bodies, a tractor was brought in to dig a mass grave in the grounds of the Church of St. Andrew and Pyervozvannoho All Saints, its abbot, Andriy Galavin told CNN.
"There were too many dead people, and there was no way to properly bury them because getting to the cemetery was simply unrealistic because of the shelling," Galavin said.

[Ibanez]

Do you have a link to that?

https://archive.ph/pOlhp

Down near the bottom of the article. Was on CNN.

Hasty burials in mass grave.

Shelling, live fire, and trigger-happy Russian soldiers made it too dangerous for those injured in the assault on Bucha to seek treatment at the local hospital in the center of town, according to residents.
The local morgue in Bucha ran out of space as deaths mounted in March; to deal with all the bodies, a tractor was brought in to dig a mass grave in the grounds of the Church of St. Andrew and Pyervozvannoho All Saints, its abbot, Andriy Galavin told CNN.
"There were too many dead people, and there was no way to properly bury them because getting to the cemetery was simply unrealistic because of the shelling," Galavin said.

Those graves wouldn't be necessary if Russia hadn't invaded.

[SeattleGriz]

https://archive.ph/pOlhp

Down near the bottom of the article. Was on CNN.

Those graves wouldn't be necessary if Russia hadn't invaded.

Agreed, but now the fact the mass graves were dug by the people of Bucha and not the Russians, doesn't that counter the IC's assessment?

[Col Hogan]

Russia is blocking the GPS system in Ukraine…

Specifically, Russia is targeting the Navstar system of satellites used by the United States and made available openly to many countries around the world, Thompson said. (Russia has its own independent system, called GLONASS, while the Europeans have one called Galileo and China has one called Beidou.)

Navstar uses 24 main satellites that each orbit the Earth every 12 hours. The system works by sending synchronized signals to users on Earth. Because the satellites move in different directions, the user receives their signals at slightly different times. When four satellites are available, GPS receivers can use their signals to calculate the user's position, often to within just a few feet.

https://www.space.com/russia-jamming-gp ... ls-ukraine

[Skjellyfetti]

Surprisingly not going well at sea for Russia either.

Moskva, Black Sea's flagship, seriously damaged. The was ship told to go fuck itself by Snake Island defenders.

[SeattleGriz]

That those deaths were solely due to Russia. You do know Bucha was being shelled by the Ukrainians don't you? You think the Ukrainians did nothing to try and remove the Russians?

But the war is one-sided - if Russia hadn't decided to invade another sovereign nation, none of these deaths would occur. There was and continues to be no justification for Russia to have invaded. Russia's existence wasn't in jeopardy, the only thing being challenged was the ability for Russia to politically, economically, and socially dominate its neighbors. That's not an existential threat.

And maybe Ukrainian attacks on Bucha to force out the Russians may have killed some civilians, but it probably didn't kill the civilians who had their hands tied behind their backs and who had gunshot wounds to the heads.

I agree with this.

[SDHornet]

Bro, all he had was satellite imagery. Given the recent track record of events used to gin up war support in other recent conflicts, it's going to take more than that to use this as a narrative to warmonger their way into US boots on the ground.

And being called a "Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with warmongering narratives is fine by me. Pretty sure I already earned that label for not going along with the Trump Russia Collusion narratives (that were all false, some of which the IC were in on). I've never claimed this invasion was justified by whatever bullshit Putin was pushing. All I want is to make sure US troops don't get sucked into another war, I fell for state propaganda that got us into a war before, not falling for it again.

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

Butthurt about what? Not falling for this warmongering?

[SDHornet]

Agreed. Problem with this Ukrainian failure is that this will have a major impact on the global food supply. America will be fine, we can grow our own food, it will just cost us more at the grocery store checkout. Some folks will be able to absorb that cost, others already living on the brink will face real hardship. But those countries that rely on food imports (especially 3rd world shitholes) are going to suffer greatly.

It's almost as this calamity was predicted in some old religious manuscript.

So you’ll deny any msm news but readily accept 3rd hand allegory written 2000 years ago?

Ok

Yes. It's called faith.

[SDHornet]

Remember folks, the goal with the propaganda isn't to get US/NATO boots on the ground...no one is saying that...

So, unverified and unknown Twitter profiles and posts are BETTER than multiple government intelligence sources?

I find your trust and denial of sources to be curious. It's like your Hunter Biden crack pipe comment - you believe that Hunter fell asleep with a crack pipe in his mouth and then took a picture vs that being staged but you won't believe satellite imagery and battle field reports from people who are actually in the thick of it.

It's ok and necessary to question but I think you're falling victim to propaganda.

Comparing any of this to what the POTUS' crackhead son does is quite the reach.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that there has been some purging of Twitter accounts spreading "Russian disinformation" that runs counter to the "Ukraine is winning" narrative. Some anon, some blue checks but I'm sure it's just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the regime trying to control the narrative.

[SDHornet]

But the war is one-sided - if Russia hadn't decided to invade another sovereign nation, none of these deaths would occur. There was and continues to be no justification for Russia to have invaded. Russia's existence wasn't in jeopardy, the only thing being challenged was the ability for Russia to politically, economically, and socially dominate its neighbors. That's not an existential threat.

And maybe Ukrainian attacks on Bucha to force out the Russians may have killed some civilians, but it probably didn't kill the civilians who had their hands tied behind their backs and who had gunshot wounds to the heads.

I agree with this.

Same

[SDHornet]

Surprisingly not going well at sea for Russia either.

Moskva, Black Sea's flagship, seriously damaged. The was ship told to go fuck itself by Snake Island defenders.

That was a big hit. Seeing people compare that ships impact to this war to what a carriers' impact would have from an influence standpoint.

[Ibanez]

Those graves wouldn't be necessary if Russia hadn't invaded.

Agreed, but now the fact the mass graves were dug by the people of Bucha and not the Russians, doesn't that counter the IC's assessment?

The more important question is who killed those people. I understand a locality having to make a mass grave due to an overwhelming number of corpses.

[Ibanez]

So, unverified and unknown Twitter profiles and posts are BETTER than multiple government intelligence sources?

I find your trust and denial of sources to be curious. It's like your Hunter Biden crack pipe comment - you believe that Hunter fell asleep with a crack pipe in his mouth and then took a picture vs that being staged but you won't believe satellite imagery and battle field reports from people who are actually in the thick of it.

It's ok and necessary to question but I think you're falling victim to propaganda.

Comparing any of this to what the POTUS' crackhead son does is quite the reach.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that there has been some purging of Twitter accounts spreading "Russian disinformation" that runs counter to the "Ukraine is winning" narrative. Some anon, some blue checks but I'm sure it's just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the regime trying to control the narrative.

I'm comparing the sources you chose to trust and those you don't. I find it curious that you'll take the word of XXRiverCat69420 over the CIA. I get why you question them, but your choices are just curious to me.

What if the IC is behind all of those unverified twitter posts you use as sources? Whoa! Mind blown!

[houndawg]

One-sided? In what way

That those deaths were solely due to Russia. You do know Bucha was being shelled by the Ukrainians don't you? You think the Ukrainians did nothing to try and remove the Russians?

You should just take the tattered shards of your credibility and leave.

Trying to equate friendly-fire deaths in the fog of war by a nation defending itself with an invading Army's deliberate targeting of civilians.

[SeattleGriz]

Agreed, but now the fact the mass graves were dug by the people of Bucha and not the Russians, doesn't that counter the IC's assessment?

The more important question is who killed those people. I understand a locality having to make a mass grave due to an overwhelming number of corpses.

It is, but the IC used the mass graves as proof of Russian atrocities, and it is now confirmed the grave was dug by Bucha residents. So which is it? Did the Russians dig the mass grave, or did the residents. It can't be both. This is why I'm unwilling to buy the amp that goes to 11. Mine already goes to 10.

[SeattleGriz]

That those deaths were solely due to Russia. You do know Bucha was being shelled by the Ukrainians don't you? You think the Ukrainians did nothing to try and remove the Russians?

You should just take the tattered shards of your credibility and leave.

Trying to equate friendly-fire deaths in the fog of war by a nation defending itself with an invading Army's deliberate targeting of civilians.

You still have said absolutely nothing that can be validated in regards to the Russians solely commiting the deaths. I do appreciate you trying to carry this thread. It was dying.

[houndawg]

You should just take the tattered shards of your credibility and leave.

Trying to equate friendly-fire deaths in the fog of war by a nation defending itself with an invading Army's deliberate targeting of civilians.

You still have said absolutely nothing that can be validated in regards to the Russians solely commiting the deaths. I do appreciate you trying to carry this thread. It was dying.

As usual you attempt to not understand and toss out some feeble dodge. Where was this attitude when we abandoned the Kurds and relenquished our bases in Syria to Putin? And I don't recall hearing from you when VP announced a 100K bounty on US soldiers. I guess you can't type and jack-off Putin at the same time.

[Skjellyfetti]

Surprisingly not going well at sea for Russia either.

Moskva, Black Sea's flagship, seriously damaged. The was ship told to go fuck itself by Snake Island defenders.

That was a big hit. Seeing people compare that ships impact to this war to what a carriers' impact would have from an influence standpoint.

sounds like its influence has been demoted to a stationary submarine.

[SeattleGriz]

You still have said absolutely nothing that can be validated in regards to the Russians solely commiting the deaths. I do appreciate you trying to carry this thread. It was dying.

As usual you attempt to not understand and toss out some feeble dodge. Where was this attitude when we abandoned the Kurds and relenquished our bases in Syria to Putin? And I don't recall hearing from you when VP announced a 100K bounty on US soldiers. I guess you can't type and jack-off Putin at the same time.

You are making no sense. I'm not debating Putin invaded Ukraine, and as such, it's an extremely shitty situation for all, but that doesn't mean I have to suspend critical thinking and ignore facts, or lack thereof.

100k bounty? WTF?

[GannonFan]

You should just take the tattered shards of your credibility and leave.

Trying to equate friendly-fire deaths in the fog of war by a nation defending itself with an invading Army's deliberate targeting of civilians.

You still have said absolutely nothing that can be validated in regards to the Russians solely commiting the deaths. I do appreciate you trying to carry this thread. It was dying.

Why does it matter if Russia directly killed 100% of those people (which I don't think anyone is saying, other than the fact that likely none of those people would be dead if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place) or if Russia killed most of those people (especially the ones tied up and shot in the head) and then some unfortunately fell to friendly fire as the Ukranians tried to take back the town (and expel the Russians from Ukranian soil, which again is the main driver of everything here, Russia's invasion of a sovereign nation without cause)? What you're trying to argue just seems nonsensical and trivial.