The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

I’m not sure you quite understand what “free press” means.

The msm is free to publish the declassified info and/or not report on it and/or critique it.

Hope this helps.

Someone needs to read up on the close ties the IC has had with the legacy media (hint: Operation Mockingbird). You're welcome.

The CIA has a history of manipulation and psy-ops?

GTFO!

So what have they specifically done/lied about/gotten wrong in the Ukraine war?

[Ibanez]

I wonder why it's been politicized...perhaps shitty politicians and partisans from Presidents to cabinet members to legislators have used the IC as another stake to divide America.

You fuckers look at the 1,000s of things the IC gets right but focus on the 10 things they get wrong.

Now lets not be too harsh - they calm down some when their side is in charge

Both sides are the problem.

[SeattleGriz]

[x] Doubt

It was from a French outlet, so meh.

Chalking this one up to bologna, but read there were numerous NATO advisors holed up with the AZOV guys. The French tried to get their crew out and that was the copters shot down.

Also read the facility they were in was also a bioweapons facility.

As with all the other uncorroborated stories, no thoughts until I see some proof.

Pepe's been posting a lot. See if his prediction comes true.

[UNI88]

It was from a French outlet, so meh.

Chalking this one up to bologna, but read there were numerous NATO advisors holed up with the AZOV guys. The French tried to get their crew out and that was the copters shot down.

Also read the facility they were in was also a bioweapons facility.

As with all the other uncorroborated stories, no thoughts until I see some proof.

Pepe's been posting a lot. See if his prediction comes true.

Maybe they should have used shmel to defend the capital on January 6, 2021 ...

[SeattleGriz]

Chalking this one up to bologna, but read there were numerous NATO advisors holed up with the AZOV guys. The French tried to get their crew out and that was the copters shot down.

Also read the facility they were in was also a bioweapons facility.

As with all the other uncorroborated stories, no thoughts until I see some proof.

Pepe's been posting a lot. See if his prediction comes true.

Maybe they should have used shmel to defend the capital on January 6, 2021 ...

Not powerful enough!

[JohnStOnge]

Ok now I saw some of the entertaining part.

BTW, I think our intelligence community does a good job. I think they deal in a realm of uncertainty. They have to make calls in the face of that uncertainty. They are not going to be right 100% of the time. I don't think I could find some quantitative assessment showing percentage wise how often they are right and how often they are wrong. But I would much rather have them out there doing what they do than not have them. And I think that, on balance, they are a benefit.

In a weird way I kind of relate to the language they use. They use terms like "high confidence." in the world of statistics, I think "high confidence" means 95%. Do you know what that means? When you make 95% confidence the decision criterion, you are accepting being wrong on about 1 in 20 occasions when you make a decision. And people tend to notice when you are wrong a lot more than they do when you are right.

[SeattleGriz]

Ok now I saw some of the entertaining part.

BTW, I think our intelligence community does a good job. I think they deal in a realm of uncertainty. They have to make calls in the face of that uncertainty. They are not going to be right 100% of the time. I don't think I could find some quantitative assessment showing percentage wise how often they are right and how often they are wrong. But I would much rather have them out there doing what they do than not have them. And I think that, on balance, they are a benefit.

In a weird way I kind of relate to the language they use. They use terms like "high confidence." in the world of statistics, I think "high confidence" means 95%. Do you know what that means? When you make 95% confidence the decision criterion, you are accepting being wrong on about 1 in 20 occasions when you make a decision. And people tend to notice when you are wrong a lot more than they do when you are right.

I think we have great employees within our IC, I just don't hold that sentiment for the management. Just seems to be too many looking out for their best interest, as opposed to America. We can absorb that shit, but it's not productive. We break a lot of eggs in pursuit of higher purpose.

[kalm]

Ok now I saw some of the entertaining part.

BTW, I think our intelligence community does a good job. I think they deal in a realm of uncertainty. They have to make calls in the face of that uncertainty. They are not going to be right 100% of the time. I don't think I could find some quantitative assessment showing percentage wise how often they are right and how often they are wrong. But I would much rather have them out there doing what they do than not have them. And I think that, on balance, they are a benefit.

In a weird way I kind of relate to the language they use. They use terms like "high confidence." in the world of statistics, I think "high confidence" means 95%. Do you know what that means? When you make 95% confidence the decision criterion, you are accepting being wrong on about 1 in 20 occasions when you make a decision. And people tend to notice when you are wrong a lot more than they do when you are right.

I think we have great employees within our IC, I just don't hold that sentiment for the management. Just seems to be too many looking out for their best interest, as opposed to America. We can absorb that shit, but it's not productive. We break a lot of eggs in pursuit of higher purpose.

That last bit is very well written and applies to many things.

[SDHornet]

Now lets not be too harsh - they calm down some when their side is in charge

Both sides are the problem.

[houndawg]

What a load of horseshit.

You'll take any rumor or negative thing said about Biden or Harris or Obama or Clinton at face value but you reject photographic evidence of Russian atrocities. That's some embarassingly feeble shit you're trying to sell.

Naw. CID got his panties in a wad because I didn't go along with the lines of who committed the massacre from the jump. Just for questioning the narratives, he even went as far as saying I (and SG) was pedaling Russian disinformation for even casting doubt until verification came. My point has always been that these atrocities are going to be pedaled to gin up support for another foreign war because the regime needs to keep its grift going. There was never any doubt that the Russians and Ukrainians were going to commit atrocities in this war. Hell, just look at the narratives surrounding the train station missile attack in Kramatorsk as another example.

This whole debacle is one big clusterfuck and it's best if we keep out troops out of it.

peddled*

Your point about the atrocities is tangential at best, since its been SOP since every war in human history, to the real point that they did in fact occur. Where was your phony outrage when the last regime was trying to extort Ukraine?

Ever the sore loser. SDHornet

[SDHornet]

Someone needs to read up on the close ties the IC has had with the legacy media (hint: Operation Mockingbird). You're welcome.

The CIA has a history of manipulation and psy-ops?

GTFO!

So what have they specifically done/lied about/gotten wrong in the Ukraine war?

Provocation via a known failed policy (see Crimea circa 2014) to start this whole mess.

[SDHornet]

I think we have great employees within our IC, I just don't hold that sentiment for the management. Just seems to be too many looking out for their best interest, as opposed to America. We can absorb that shit, but it's not productive. We break a lot of eggs in pursuit of higher purpose.

That last bit is very well written and applies to many things.

Agreed. Problem with this Ukrainian failure is that this will have a major impact on the global food supply. America will be fine, we can grow our own food, it will just cost us more at the grocery store checkout. Some folks will be able to absorb that cost, others already living on the brink will face real hardship. But those countries that rely on food imports (especially 3rd world shitholes) are going to suffer greatly.

It's almost as this calamity was predicted in some old religious manuscript.

[SDHornet]

Naw. CID got his panties in a wad because I didn't go along with the lines of who committed the massacre from the jump. Just for questioning the narratives, he even went as far as saying I (and SG) was pedaling Russian disinformation for even casting doubt until verification came. My point has always been that these atrocities are going to be pedaled to gin up support for another foreign war because the regime needs to keep its grift going. There was never any doubt that the Russians and Ukrainians were going to commit atrocities in this war. Hell, just look at the narratives surrounding the train station missile attack in Kramatorsk as another example.

This whole debacle is one big clusterfuck and it's best if we keep out troops out of it.

peddled*

Your point about the atrocities is tangential at best, since its been SOP since every war in human history, to the real point that they did in fact occur. Where was your phony outrage when the last regime was trying to extort Ukraine?

Ever the sore loser. SDHornet

The last one didn't impact a presidential election, and it was our side doing the regime change so we're supposed to cheer it on, no?

And speaking of outrage on civilian atrocities for those trying to suck the US into another war, where was the outrage over civilians dying in Yemen, Armenia, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc? For some reason we're supposed to care about the atrocities in Ukraine because they are different how?

[houndawg]

What are even talking about? Of course they’re using the MSM. Why wouldn’t they be? Do you think you’ve uncovered some super secret conspiracy here?

Because the "free press" isn't supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gubmint. This is kinda a big deal, especially when being used to spread warmongering propaganda against a nuclear power.

You're blowing smoke. CID called you out for ignoring the readily available information about the Russian atrocities. Your agenda is to try to flip the blame onto "the regime" somehow as being the cause of the invasion. But being full of shit as a Christmas turkey you only manage to come off sounding like another one of Putin's knob-sloppers. This invasion and accompanying atrocities are 100% the child of Vladimir Putin. Your feeble attempt at deflection is irrelevant and geared to about the third grade level. Of course the MSM gets used by all sides - the fact that many players are trying to push their own agenda does not change the fact of what happened and that there is photographic evidence available to you to verify that it is true. No wonder nobody wants to hang around here anymore.

[SDHornet]

Because the "free press" isn't supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gubmint. This is kinda a big deal, especially when being used to spread warmongering propaganda against a nuclear power.

You're blowing smoke. CID called you out for ignoring the readily available information about the Russian atrocities. Your agenda is to try to flip the blame onto "the regime" somehow as being the cause of the invasion. But being full of shit as a Christmas turkey you only manage to come off sounding like another one of Putin's knob-sloppers. This invasion and accompanying atrocities are 100% the child of Vladimir Putin. Your feeble attempt at deflection is irrelevant and geared to about the third grade level. Of course the MSM gets used by all sides - the fact that many players are trying to push their own agenda does not change the fact of what happened and that there is photographic evidence available to you to verify that it is true. No wonder nobody wants to hang around here anymore.

Bro, all he had was satellite imagery. Given the recent track record of events used to gin up war support in other recent conflicts, it's going to take more than that to use this as a narrative to warmonger their way into US boots on the ground.

And being called a "Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with warmongering narratives is fine by me. Pretty sure I already earned that label for not going along with the Trump Russia Collusion narratives (that were all false, some of which the IC were in on). I've never claimed this invasion was justified by whatever bullshit Putin was pushing. All I want is to make sure US troops don't get sucked into another war, I fell for state propaganda that got us into a war before, not falling for it again.

[SDHornet]

Remember folks, the goal with the propaganda isn't to get US/NATO boots on the ground...no one is saying that...

[Skjellyfetti]

When Cid said that he didn't mean random Twitter accounts.

[houndawg]

You're blowing smoke. CID called you out for ignoring the readily available information about the Russian atrocities. Your agenda is to try to flip the blame onto "the regime" somehow as being the cause of the invasion. But being full of shit as a Christmas turkey you only manage to come off sounding like another one of Putin's knob-sloppers. This invasion and accompanying atrocities are 100% the child of Vladimir Putin. Your feeble attempt at deflection is irrelevant and geared to about the third grade level. Of course the MSM gets used by all sides - the fact that many players are trying to push their own agenda does not change the fact of what happened and that there is photographic evidence available to you to verify that it is true. No wonder nobody wants to hang around here anymore.

Bro, all he had was satellite imagery. Given the recent track record of events used to gin up war support in other recent conflicts, it's going to take more than that to use this as a narrative to warmonger their way into US boots on the ground.

And being called a "Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with warmongering narratives is fine by me. Pretty sure I already earned that label for not going along with the Trump Russia Collusion narratives (that were all false, some of which the IC were in on). I've never claimed this invasion was justified by whatever bullshit Putin was pushing. All I want is to make sure US troops don't get sucked into another war, I fell for state propaganda that got us into a war before, not falling for it again.

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

[houndawg]

When Cid said that he didn't mean random Twitter accounts.

We know, but SD is kind in the "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" mode. With a side of "I'm the victim here".

SDHornet

[houndawg]

I saw all kinds of corroboration of the murders of Ukrainian civilians today. It dovetails precisely with what the NYT was saying (guess why?)

I also saw stacks of corroboration that the Russian army is in fact being whipped and not a case of “we meant to do this”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

world: U.S. officials said they had indications suggesting Russia might be preparing to use chemical agents in Ukraine.

President Joe Biden later said it publicly. But three U.S. officials told NBC News this week there is no evidence Russia has brought any chemical weapons near Ukraine. They said the U.S. released the information to deter Russia from using the banned munitions.

It’s one of a string of examples of the Biden administration’s breaking with recent precedent by deploying declassified intelligence as part of an information war against Russia. The administration has done so even when the intelligence wasn’t rock solid, officials said, to keep Russian President Vladimir Putin off balance. Coordinated by the White House National Security Council, the unprecedented intelligence releases have been so frequent and voluminous, officials said, that intelligence agencies had to devote more staff members to work on the declassification process, scrubbing the information so it wouldn’t betray sources and methods.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna23014

Sorry Cid, none of these people dealing with this have any credibility. I'd rather keep out troops out of this mess. If that means more dead civilians, then so be it.

Show me where CID advocated sending troops.

[SeattleGriz]

Bro, all he had was satellite imagery. Given the recent track record of events used to gin up war support in other recent conflicts, it's going to take more than that to use this as a narrative to warmonger their way into US boots on the ground.

And being called a "Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with warmongering narratives is fine by me. Pretty sure I already earned that label for not going along with the Trump Russia Collusion narratives (that were all false, some of which the IC were in on). I've never claimed this invasion was justified by whatever bullshit Putin was pushing. All I want is to make sure US troops don't get sucked into another war, I fell for state propaganda that got us into a war before, not falling for it again.

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".

The mass graves are real, but the decision to bury the deceased in a mass grave was made by the local authorities in consultations with clergy after the morgue was overflowing. Deceased people, including those who had died from natural causes and shooting by both sides, were buried there.

I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

[houndawg]

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".

The mass graves are real, but the decision to bury the deceased in a mass grave was made by the local authorities in consultations with clergy after the morgue was overflowing. Deceased people, including those who had died from natural causes and shooting by both sides, were buried there.

I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

I see where CID got it wrong - he called you and SD Reek2 and Reek3 when actually you're just Reek2 with an extra account.

[SeattleGriz]

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".



I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

I see where CID got it wrong - he called you and SD Reek2 and Reek3 when actually you're just Reek2 with an extra account.

I'm surprised at how much you hate Putin. I always thought you admired his style of leadership.

You're whiffing at landing anything here. I saw pictures of dead bodies tells you only there were people laying on the ground.

[kalm]

Well, I guess civilian bodies with their hands tied behind their back aren't conclusive proof of war crimes...

And about being called a ""Putin xxxx" because I'm not willing to go along with war-mongering narratives"....please. You can mob with the best of them
but now you're feigning butthurt and trying to sell your political bias as healthy skepticism. Worst case of Biden Derangement Syndrome I've seen here yet, and that is saying something.

Have you thought about stomping your feet to prove your point? How about holding your breath?

Bucha was another attempt to paint the war as one sided, when it's much more likely to have been "shit happens".

The mass graves are real, but the decision to bury the deceased in a mass grave was made by the local authorities in consultations with clergy after the morgue was overflowing. Deceased people, including those who had died from natural causes and shooting by both sides, were buried there.

I assume we'll be seeing that independent investigation any day now too?

Do you have a link to that?

[kalm]

That last bit is very well written and applies to many things.

Agreed. Problem with this Ukrainian failure is that this will have a major impact on the global food supply. America will be fine, we can grow our own food, it will just cost us more at the grocery store checkout. Some folks will be able to absorb that cost, others already living on the brink will face real hardship. But those countries that rely on food imports (especially 3rd world shitholes) are going to suffer greatly.

It's almost as this calamity was predicted in some old religious manuscript.

So you’ll deny any msm news but readily accept 3rd hand allegory written 2000 years ago?

Ok