The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

Well that was disappointing. I was expecting seeing something much more entertaining after reading CID's "I'm out!" post. OF course I just read the last page.

Go back 2-5 pages.

[houndawg]

BTW, my most common thought as I've watched this unfold is that it really is a shame there there is such a thing as nuclear weapons because I think that if there weren't the Western World would not be tolerating this and would have already made short work of Russia's conventional military.

Who knew they were hollow? When I was in they were supposed to be 10 ft. tall and bulletproof.

[JohnStOnge]

BTW, my most common thought as I've watched this unfold is that it really is a shame there there is such a thing as nuclear weapons because I think that if there weren't the Western World would not be tolerating this and would have already made short work of Russia's conventional military.

Who knew they were hollow? When I was in they were supposed to be 10 ft. tall and bulletproof.

i do think people over estimated them, though i will say that i always thought that the US could absolutely dominate them in the air. At this point, though, I think it's become clear that they are not very effective overall. I think the only reason the civilized world hasn't slapped them flat is that they've got their nuclear arsenal. Of course that's a really good reason.
'
It's really sad. I don't see how Putin can possibly think this is in Russia's long term interest. Among other things, he has now given European nations an incentive to wean themselves of dependence on Russian oil and natural gas supplies. Also he's given countries like Finland a good reason for wanting to get into NATO. And he can't have seriously believed that the Ukraine and/or NATO was going to attack Russia. It just doesn't seem to make any sense.

[kalm]

Who knew they were hollow? When I was in they were supposed to be 10 ft. tall and bulletproof.

i do think people over estimated them, though i will say that i always thought that the US could absolutely dominate them in the air. At this point, though, I think it's become clear that they are not very effective overall. I think the only reason the civilized world hasn't slapped them flat is that they've got their nuclear arsenal. Of course that's a really good reason.
'
It's really sad. I don't see how Putin can possibly think this is in Russia's long term interest. Among other things, he has now given European nations an incentive to wean themselves of dependence on Russian oil and natural gas supplies. Also he's given countries like Finland a good reason for wanting to get into NATO. And he can't have seriously believed that the Ukraine and/or NATO was going to attack Russia. It just doesn't seem to make any sense.

Yep. NATO is now talking about stationing troops along Russia’s border for security.

Putin, quite effectively, increased the allure of NATO membership and expansion.

[SDHornet]

What indefensible position is that? That the US IC and their MSM mouthpieces have no credibility?

If we really wanted to collapse Russia's economy, we'd open the flood gates on oil production by any means necessary. This would would give the EU an alternative source for their oil needs. We'd also get tough on SA by pulling out support in their war on Yemen until they started pumping more. Get global oil supply up, drop the price of oil/barrel and put the real squeeze on Putin's war machine funding.

The IC has *no* credibility?

The IC gets things wrong frequently but it also gets a majority of things right.

A good example is that the IC actually predicted the Russian invasion within 2 weeks. And guess who was pooh poo-ing the IC over that prediction when it was made? The same Russian apologists who are now pulling out all the stops to say the earth is flat and Russia is not daily committing war crimes in Ukraine.

The IC has a hell of a lot more credibility on this than you do, SG.


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Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

[UNI88]

The IC has *no* credibility?

The IC gets things wrong frequently but it also gets a majority of things right.

A good example is that the IC actually predicted the Russian invasion within 2 weeks. And guess who was pooh poo-ing the IC over that prediction when it was made? The same Russian apologists who are now pulling out all the stops to say the earth is flat and Russia is not daily committing war crimes in Ukraine.

The IC has a hell of a lot more credibility on this than you do, SG.


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Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

Who has credibility?

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[kalm]

The IC has *no* credibility?

The IC gets things wrong frequently but it also gets a majority of things right.

A good example is that the IC actually predicted the Russian invasion within 2 weeks. And guess who was pooh poo-ing the IC over that prediction when it was made? The same Russian apologists who are now pulling out all the stops to say the earth is flat and Russia is not daily committing war crimes in Ukraine.

The IC has a hell of a lot more credibility on this than you do, SG.


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Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

You’re conflating IC declassified info and leaks with politics.

And how is this a “nation building/foreign policy blunder?

The IC has so far nailed the Ukrainian conflict. And that’s just the stuff you and I know about.

[Skjellyfetti]

[kalm]

[Ibanez]

The IC has *no* credibility?

The IC gets things wrong frequently but it also gets a majority of things right.

A good example is that the IC actually predicted the Russian invasion within 2 weeks. And guess who was pooh poo-ing the IC over that prediction when it was made? The same Russian apologists who are now pulling out all the stops to say the earth is flat and Russia is not daily committing war crimes in Ukraine.

The IC has a hell of a lot more credibility on this than you do, SG.


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Yeah they’re probably right on Russia here. But they’ve been wrong on an awful lot lately.
-Trump/Russia collusion
-Biden’s latop was Russian disinfo
-ANA wouldn’t fold like a wet blanket.
-Droning some innocent Afghani and his family.
-Kiev would fall in 72 hrs.
+whatever else I’m forgetting from the recent past.

Seems like they’ve also become totally politicized..

I wonder why it's been politicized...perhaps shitty politicians and partisans from Presidents to cabinet members to legislators have used the IC as another stake to divide America.

You fuckers look at the 1,000s of things the IC gets right but focus on the 10 things they get wrong.

[houndawg]

Yeah they’re probably right on Russia here. But they’ve been wrong on an awful lot lately.
-Trump/Russia collusion
-Biden’s latop was Russian disinfo
-ANA wouldn’t fold like a wet blanket.
-Droning some innocent Afghani and his family.
-Kiev would fall in 72 hrs.
+whatever else I’m forgetting from the recent past.

Seems like they’ve also become totally politicized..

I wonder why it's been politicized...perhaps shitty politicians and partisans from Presidents to cabinet members to legislators have used the IC as another stake to divide America.

You fuckers look at the 1,000s of things the IC gets right but focus on the 10 things they get wrong.

Now lets not be too harsh - they calm down some when their side is in charge

[AZGrizFan]

BTW, my most common thought as I've watched this unfold is that it really is a shame there there is such a thing as nuclear weapons because I think that if there weren't the Western World would not be tolerating this and would have already made short work of Russia's conventional military.

Who knew they were hollow? When I was in they were supposed to be 10 ft. tall and bulletproof.

They did a great job of projecting that, even in the last 20 years. Guess we know better now.

[houndawg]

The IC has *no* credibility?

The IC gets things wrong frequently but it also gets a majority of things right.

A good example is that the IC actually predicted the Russian invasion within 2 weeks. And guess who was pooh poo-ing the IC over that prediction when it was made? The same Russian apologists who are now pulling out all the stops to say the earth is flat and Russia is not daily committing war crimes in Ukraine.

The IC has a hell of a lot more credibility on this than you do, SG.


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Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

What a load of horseshit.

You'll take any rumor or negative thing said about Biden or Harris or Obama or Clinton at face value but you reject photographic evidence of Russian atrocities. That's some embarassingly feeble shit you're trying to sell.

[SDHornet]

Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

You’re conflating IC declassified info and leaks with politics.

And how is this a “nation building/foreign policy blunder?

The IC has so far nailed the Ukrainian conflict. And that’s just the stuff you and I know about.

You seriously don't think the IC is using the msm to put out its narratives? There's a reason "former" intel heads like Brennan and Clapper make regular appearances on places like CNN, MSNBC, etc. You're completely naïve if you think think there is no connection there.

[SDHornet]

Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

What a load of horseshit.

You'll take any rumor or negative thing said about Biden or Harris or Obama or Clinton at face value but you reject photographic evidence of Russian atrocities. That's some embarassingly feeble shit you're trying to sell.

Naw. CID got his panties in a wad because I didn't go along with the lines of who committed the massacre from the jump. Just for questioning the narratives, he even went as far as saying I (and SG) was pedaling Russian disinformation for even casting doubt until verification came. My point has always been that these atrocities are going to be pedaled to gin up support for another foreign war because the regime needs to keep its grift going. There was never any doubt that the Russians and Ukrainians were going to commit atrocities in this war. Hell, just look at the narratives surrounding the train station missile attack in Kramatorsk as another example.

This whole debacle is one big clusterfuck and it's best if we keep out troops out of it.

[SDHornet]

Yeah I was wrong on Russia moving forward on the invasion. I thought it would just be sabre rattling. I owned that miss very early on in this thread. I also owned the miss on thinking Ukraine would be routed. They have fought valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds and that does not go overlooked by me.

But you devolved into nothing but a statist shill on this topic as you've let reliving those "muh Russia" glory days of the 80's overtake your emotions on this situation. Your boys in the IC have gotten a hell of a lot of things wrong in these past 20 years. So yeah, I stand by my statement of the IC having no credibility. IMO, nothing they say on foreign affairs should be taken at face value. These are the same folks that pushed "WMDs in Iraq" and supporting "moderate Islamists" in Syria. Let's not forget the "we came, we saw, they died" debacle that created a failed state in Libya and the even more recent embarrassment that is the Afghanistan "withdrawal". Good job training and funding all those Afghan fighters those 20+ years we were there. Winning!

This war in Ukraine is just another nation building/foreign policy blunder added to another long list of failures on their record...in just the last 20 years of my lifetime. So yeah, fuck anything the IC is claiming on this war, or really anything for that matter.

And seriously, thinking a keyboard warrior like me has more credibility than the IC? What a reach. I'll close this post with a statement that really gets you triggered: Keep selling all the weapons we can to Ukraine, but hard pass on US boots on the ground and enforcing a no fly zone.

Just saw your "me too" thread. A little questioning of IC statements on a massacre in this war and you cut tail and run. Incredibly weak.

Who has credibility?

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Russia Today.

I've been getting my stuff from annon Twitter/Telgram outlets from both sides. They're easily a few days ahead of it hitting msm headlines.

[kalm]

You’re conflating IC declassified info and leaks with politics.

And how is this a “nation building/foreign policy blunder?

The IC has so far nailed the Ukrainian conflict. And that’s just the stuff you and I know about.

You seriously don't think the IC is using the msm to put out its narratives? There's a reason "former" intel heads like Brennan and Clapper make regular appearances on places like CNN, MSNBC, etc. You're completely naïve if you think think there is no connection there.

What are even talking about? Of course they’re using the MSM. Why wouldn’t they be? Do you think you’ve uncovered some super secret conspiracy here?

[SDHornet]

You seriously don't think the IC is using the msm to put out its narratives? There's a reason "former" intel heads like Brennan and Clapper make regular appearances on places like CNN, MSNBC, etc. You're completely naïve if you think think there is no connection there.

What are even talking about? Of course they’re using the MSM. Why wouldn’t they be? Do you think you’ve uncovered some super secret conspiracy here?

Because the "free press" isn't supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gubmint. This is kinda a big deal, especially when being used to spread warmongering propaganda against a nuclear power.

[SDHornet]

Not sure why Russia would need to use chemical weapons in Maruipol when Ukrainian troops there are surrendering in mass.

[kalm]

What are even talking about? Of course they’re using the MSM. Why wouldn’t they be? Do you think you’ve uncovered some super secret conspiracy here?

Because the "free press" isn't supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gubmint. This is kinda a big deal, especially when being used to spread warmongering propaganda against a nuclear power.

I’m not sure you quite understand what “free press” means.

The msm is free to publish the declassified info and/or not report on it and/or critique it.

Hope this helps.

[Skjellyfetti]

Not sure why Russia would need to use chemical weapons in Maruipol when Ukrainian troops there are surrendering in mass.

There is a *massive* steel and ironworks complex in Mariupol that is one of the largest in Europe. It is full of underground bunkers built by the Soviets to be protected from bombing. It will be a pain in the ass to clear.

I'm not saying I believe the reports yet. But, there is certainly a motivation and Mariupol is still not under Russian control...

[SDHornet]

Not sure why Russia would need to use chemical weapons in Maruipol when Ukrainian troops there are surrendering in mass.

There is a *massive* steel and ironworks complex in Mariupol that is one of the largest in Europe. It is full of underground bunkers built by the Soviets to be protected from bombing. It will be a pain in the ass to clear.

I'm not saying I believe the reports yet. But, there is certainly a motivation and Mariupol is still not under Russian control...

Yeah I heard it was built to withstand a nuke. But if they are holed up in there, is there a need to go in after them? Assuming they know where all the exits are (maybe they don't), just lay siege and wait them out...or seal them in.

Also saw a headline that there are Brit SOS and Delta Force units with them. Not sure how accurate that is either. Speculation is those helo's that were downed last week were trying to extract those SOF units.

[SDHornet]

Because the "free press" isn't supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gubmint. This is kinda a big deal, especially when being used to spread warmongering propaganda against a nuclear power.

I’m not sure you quite understand what “free press” means.

The msm is free to publish the declassified info and/or not report on it and/or critique it.

Hope this helps.

Someone needs to read up on the close ties the IC has had with the legacy media (hint: Operation Mockingbird). You're welcome.

[Skjellyfetti]

Also saw a headline that there are Brit SOS and Delta Force units with them. Not sure how accurate that is either. Speculation is those helo's that were downed last week were trying to extract those SOF units.

[x] Doubt

[SDHornet]

Also saw a headline that there are Brit SOS and Delta Force units with them. Not sure how accurate that is either. Speculation is those helo's that were downed last week were trying to extract those SOF units.

[x] Doubt

It was from a French outlet, so meh.