Vietnamese Communist Democide

[native]

You're half right. I know militarily we won the Vietnam War, but politically lost it. This falls squarely on the feet of our government....and that is what is so frustrating to me about our politicians. I firmly believe in the Powell Doctrine, which is similar to Cap Weinberger's policy, that when you decide to use the military, you engage the conflict using overwhelming force and win decisively and quickly. I realize we have a changing military and Rummy was brought in to streamline the pentagon. However, as that administration stated on numerous occassions, everything changed on 9/11......except the memo didn't reach Rumsfeld's desk. We still tried to engage Afghan and Iraq with the streamlined forces which, considering what we were told was at stake (our very survival), we should have shelved the downsizing plan for a few years, used overwhelming force to annihlate Taliban and Al Quaida in Iraq quickly and decisively, and put all other comers on notice with the manner in which we won. Instead, we jacked our diks for three years in Iraq, at the expense of Afghan war, causing unnecessary loss of life and helping to foment the level of discourse in our own country. Now, I'll step down from my soapbox........

Really excellent point about DoD transformation. Rummy was so busy talking that he missed a lot more than just one memo. I think he would have been successful as a peacetime transformation SecDef, but you can't do transformation and conduct a war at the same time.

I also take your point about winning decisively in Afghanistan. On a smaller scale, we should have done something similar in Mog by destroying about six city blocks before withdrawing.

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

[Cap'n Cat]

You're half right. I know militarily we won the Vietnam War, but politically lost it. This falls squarely on the feet of our government....and that is what is so frustrating to me about our politicians. I firmly believe in the Powell Doctrine, which is similar to Cap Weinberger's policy, that when you decide to use the military, you engage the conflict using overwhelming force and win decisively and quickly. I realize we have a changing military and Rummy was brought in to streamline the pentagon. However, as that administration stated on numerous occassions, everything changed on 9/11......except the memo didn't reach Rumsfeld's desk. We still tried to engage Afghan and Iraq with the streamlined forces which, considering what we were told was at stake (our very survival), we should have shelved the downsizing plan for a few years, used overwhelming force to annihlate Taliban and Al Quaida in Iraq quickly and decisively, and put all other comers on notice with the manner in which we won. Instead, we jacked our diks for three years in Iraq, at the expense of Afghan war, causing unnecessary loss of life and helping to foment the level of discourse in our own country. Now, I'll step down from my soapbox........

Really excellent point about DoD transformation. Rummy was so busy talking that he missed a lot more than just one memo. I think he would have been successful as a peacetime transformation SecDef, but you can't do transformation and conduct a war at the same time.

I also take your point about winning decisively in Afghanistan. On a smaller scale, we should have done something similar in Mog by destroying about six city blocks before withdrawing.

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Hey, native, we've been playing varsity for fucking years. Gotta understand that some of us don't care to whomp on that dead horse. And this shit ain't life or death. Most of us know all these topics inside and out. Sometimes, it's no longer stimulating. MOF, Cap'n Cat has an entire shelf and a half with nothing but Vietnam War literature He's collected and read over the decades. Not in the mood for Vietnam except in measured doses. This ain't a politics or history dick-measuring contest as you would have it.

Now, if you really want to engage all of us, all of the time, talk about the physiological biomechanics of the female orgasm.

[D1B]

Cave in You don't even know what you got into, yet. You're scared shitless....

I wondered where you've been, bitch. You come back, hat in hand, to apologize again?

Nope, just felt sorry for ya. Glad you're back though.

[D1B]

You're half right. I know militarily we won the Vietnam War, but politically lost it. This falls squarely on the feet of our government....and that is what is so frustrating to me about our politicians. I firmly believe in the Powell Doctrine, which is similar to Cap Weinberger's policy, that when you decide to use the military, you engage the conflict using overwhelming force and win decisively and quickly. I realize we have a changing military and Rummy was brought in to streamline the pentagon. However, as that administration stated on numerous occassions, everything changed on 9/11......except the memo didn't reach Rumsfeld's desk. We still tried to engage Afghan and Iraq with the streamlined forces which, considering what we were told was at stake (our very survival), we should have shelved the downsizing plan for a few years, used overwhelming force to annihlate Taliban and Al Quaida in Iraq quickly and decisively, and put all other comers on notice with the manner in which we won. Instead, we jacked our diks for three years in Iraq, at the expense of Afghan war, causing unnecessary loss of life and helping to foment the level of discourse in our own country. Now, I'll step down from my soapbox........

Really excellent point about DoD transformation. Rummy was so busy talking that he missed a lot more than just one memo. I think he would have been successful as a peacetime transformation SecDef, but you can't do transformation and conduct a war at the same time.

I also take your point about winning decisively in Afghanistan. On a smaller scale, we should have done something similar in Mog by destroying about six city blocks before withdrawing.

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Yeah, we sure did, now fuck off Tman.

[native]

...
Now, if you really want to engage all of us, all of the time, talk about the physiological biomechanics of the female orgasm.

So, you are into Beach Boys music?

[Cap'n Cat]

...
Now, if you really want to engage all of us, all of the time, talk about the physiological biomechanics of the female orgasm.

So, you are into Beach Boys music?

Iggy Pop, Brian Jonestown Massacre, Cramps, Barbarellatones.

[Cap'n Cat]

We have lots of good debates to look forward to, native.

For example, Cap'n Cat thinks we lost the Cold War and that Ronald Reagan and his administration were not good for America. We sold out the Vietnamese in the 30's and 40's. Germany, Russia and France were right in pushing back on Iraqistan back in '03. The history of our foreign policy and many of the people who have administered it are positively criminal. The United States has, at once, been the greatest thing that ever happened to the planet and the worst. Also, I'm an atheist and an advocate for complete reproductive freedom. Just the kind of guy your father would love in a son-in-law.

[Appaholic]

We have lots of good debates to look forward to, native.

For example, Cap'n Cat thinks we lost the Cold War and that Ronald Reagan and his administration were not good for America. We sold out the Vietnamese in the 30's and 40's. Germany, Russia and France were right in pushing back on Iraqistan back in '03. The history of our foreign policy and many of the people who have administered it are positively criminal. The United States has, at once, been the greatest thing that ever happened to the planet and the worst. Also, I'm an atheist and an advocate for complete reproductive freedom. Just the kind of guy your father would love in a son-in-law.

Don't let 'em fool ya, Native...Cappy is actually Soul Man's associate pastor and volunteers at Operation Rescue every third Saturday when not attending Youngstown State games....

[native]

So, you are into Beach Boys music?

Iggy Pop, Brian Jonestown Massacre, Cramps, Barbarellatones.

Barbarellatones sounds interesting. I learned more about harmonic frequencies from the older woman I dated in college than I did in fourier transforms class.

[houndawg]

6,000 civilian casualties in our bombing campaigns? SMFH

Where do you find this nonsense, native? You have this way of sounding like a reality-based person for a while and then suddenly coming out of deep left field with the most preposterous nonsense that god and evrybody knows simply ain't true.We dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than were dropped in WW2 by all sides.

C'mon, Houndawg, I provided my sources! Where are yours? Chomsky?!???

Rummel's research has gained wide acceptance in academia. His original sources include the North Vietnamese themselves.

Most of what we killed with bombs in Vietnam was jungle. Sure, we hit plenty of military targets and killed more than 6,000 enemy combatants, but the civilian casualties of American bombing in Vietnam were probably about 6,000. Neither Johnson nor Nixon bombed the cities in Vietnam like we did in WWII, the "good" war. The Hanoi bombings of Linebacker and Linebacker II were of military targets.

If you had done your homework you would have known that most of the civilian casualties of American bombing in Southeast Asia occurred in the Parrot's Beak of Cambodia, and along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. When you add it all up, we killed more than 60,000 innocent civilians. BUT IT WAS 6,000 in VIETNAM.

No wonder some of you knuckleheads are so full of sh!t. You are too fvcking lazy to do any d@mm homework or challenge assumptions! ...not even worthy of warming the bench! Just throwing trash from the cheap seats.

Google is your friend, native. Notice that all of the other Wikipedia sources, except for the one you cherry-picked, put the figure in the millions? Please.
BTW, people are still dying in Viet Nam from unexploded cluster munitions and stuff like Agent Orange.

Hell, 6,000 died in a single B-52 raid on Hanoi.

[travelinman67]

Nope! Incorrect! Disparage away! Just tell me why in more than a one liner.

Although I don't expect anything useful or intelligent from Cap'n Cat, I expect a better analysis from you, Appy. Or for that matter, from such as Cleets, Twin Cities or DBJon, if I can manage not to offend them.

Hell, it gets boring agreeing with my compatriots all the time, and tiresome to piss on someone else's leg. I would rather be challenged by someone with intelligence, intellectual honesty and willingness to analyze the issues.

You have demonstrated a deeper and more intellectually honest understanding of issues than the simple solutions you espouse on this particular thread. I probably agree with much of your criticism of corporate America, but hating and criticizing without pulling the thread and offering alternative solutions is not enough.

Isn't this issue worth digging a bit deeper?

Give it up, Junior G-man. This topic has been beat to death a thousand times here. You're way behind, you're dealing in obvious superficialities and you've got an overinflated sense of newb importance. Watch the board for a year, then come back and try to fit in.

In the meantime, stare at my avatar each day for an hour and repeat, "Cap'n Cat is my god and savior."

Communist Kitty...

...native has SO OUTMATCHED YOU in this debate.


Time to give up the soundbitetrite and go back to school.

[Cap'n Cat]

America is not without sin, eh, T?

[native]

C'mon, Houndawg, I provided my sources! Where are yours? Chomsky?!???

Rummel's research has gained wide acceptance in academia. His original sources include the North Vietnamese themselves.

Most of what we killed with bombs in Vietnam was jungle. Sure, we hit plenty of military targets and killed more than 6,000 enemy combatants, but the civilian casualties of American bombing in Vietnam were probably about 6,000. Neither Johnson nor Nixon bombed the cities in Vietnam like we did in WWII, the "good" war. The Hanoi bombings of Linebacker and Linebacker II were of military targets.

If you had done your homework you would have known that most of the civilian casualties of American bombing in Southeast Asia occurred in the Parrot's Beak of Cambodia, and along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. When you add it all up, we killed more than 60,000 innocent civilians. BUT IT WAS 6,000 in VIETNAM.

No wonder some of you knuckleheads are so full of sh!t. You are too fvcking lazy to do any d@mm homework or challenge assumptions! ...not even worthy of warming the bench! Just throwing trash from the cheap seats.

Google is your friend, native. Notice that all of the other Wikipedia sources, except for the one you cherry-picked, put the figure in the millions? Please.
BTW, people are still dying in Viet Nam from unexploded cluster munitions and stuff like Agent Orange.

Hell, 6,000 died in a single B-52 raid on Hanoi.

As you well know, Dawg, one must pull the thread on wiki articles before taking them at face value.

But you neglected to cite a single source, even from wiki.

Go ahead. Cite a source. Don't pretend. Cite. Make my day.

"All the other wiki sources" and "everyone knows" and "it's common knowledge" just don't cut the mustard.

[native]

We have lots of good debates to look forward to, native.

For example, Cap'n Cat thinks we lost the Cold War and that Ronald Reagan and his administration were not good for America. We sold out the Vietnamese in the 30's and 40's. Germany, Russia and France were right in pushing back on Iraqistan back in '03. The history of our foreign policy and many of the people who have administered it are positively criminal. The United States has, at once, been the greatest thing that ever happened to the planet and the worst. Also, I'm an atheist and an advocate for complete reproductive freedom. Just the kind of guy your father would love in a son-in-law.

Okey Dokey.

[Cap'n Cat]

Give it up, Junior G-man. This topic has been beat to death a thousand times here. You're way behind, you're dealing in obvious superficialities and you've got an overinflated sense of newb importance. Watch the board for a year, then come back and try to fit in.

In the meantime, stare at my avatar each day for an hour and repeat, "Cap'n Cat is my god and savior."

Communist Kitty...

...native has SO OUTMATCHED YOU in this debate.


Time to give up the soundbitetrite and go back to school.

Wow, T. Need to vent your hate for everything a little more productively, Conk piler-on.

And, I understand you're lonely, but don't shit on cool acquaintances over it.

[houndawg]

Google is your friend, native. Notice that all of the other Wikipedia sources, except for the one you cherry-picked, put the figure in the millions? Please.
BTW, people are still dying in Viet Nam from unexploded cluster munitions and stuff like Agent Orange.

Hell, 6,000 died in a single B-52 raid on Hanoi.

As you well know, Dawg, one must pull the thread on wiki articles before taking them at face value.

But you neglected to cite a single source, even from wiki.

Go ahead. Cite a source. Don't pretend. Cite. Make my day.

"All the other wiki sources" and "everyone knows" and "it's common knowledge" just don't cut the mustard.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

Read it and weep.

[native]

As you well know, Dawg, one must pull the thread on wiki articles before taking them at face value.

But you neglected to cite a single source, even from wiki.

Go ahead. Cite a source. Don't pretend. Cite. Make my day.

"All the other wiki sources" and "everyone knows" and "it's common knowledge" just don't cut the mustard.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

Read it and weep.

Thank you. I read it. I am not weeping:

FROM YOUR OWN SOURCE: "...6,000 democides by USA..."

Do you bother to read your own sources?

Peace, brother! I know we screwed up a lot of things in Vietnam, but unlike the commies, we did not kill "millions" of innocent civilians.

[houndawg]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

Read it and weep.

Thank you. I read it. I am not weeping:

FROM YOU OWN SOURCE: "6,000 democides by USA"

Do you bother to read your own sources?

Peace, brother! I know we screwed up a lot of things in Vietnam, but unlike the commies, we did not kill "millions" of innocent civilians.

Check, millions of civilians were only killed by communists. Got it.

[Cap'n Cat]

native,
Give it up. What are you trying to prove? As I said above, this isn't for history dick-measuring contests. Everyone here is smarter or as smart as you. You feel better now?

God Almighty.

[Cleets Part 2]

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Jeezus... native
You are the single most grotesque abomination of a pseudo intellectual since Bill O'Reilly wore knee pants

1) You create a self serving thread
2) Then post on it endlessly all by yourself until it gets some traction
3) CS.com posters apologetically weigh in to help you out
4) You then proceed to blow your own horn for 3 days
5) Followed by a self congratulatory compliment identifying your high standards of "posting quality"

You are a real piece of work...

[CID1990]

I like pie.

[Cap'n Cat]

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Jeezus... native
You are the single most grotesque abomination of a pseudo intellectual since Bill O'Reilly wore knee pants

1) You create a self serving thread
2) Then post on it endlessly all by yourself until it gets some traction
3) CS.com posters apologetically weigh in to help you out
4) You then proceed to blow your own horn for 3 days
5) Followed by a self congratulatory compliment identifying your high standards of "posting quality"

You are a real piece of work...

Was struggling in my pain over here for the correct words to describe this native thing, CP2, and you nailed it.

Reppies. "Self-serving thread". I guess, in that regard, though, the punk is kinda like Me, eh?

[houndawg]

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Jeezus... native
You are the single most grotesque abomination of a pseudo intellectual since Bill O'Reilly wore knee pants

1) You create a self serving thread
2) Then post on it endlessly all by yourself until it gets some traction
3) CS.com posters apologetically weigh in to help you out
4) You then proceed to blow your own horn for 3 days
5) Followed by a self congratulatory compliment identifying your high standards of "posting quality"

You are a real piece of work...

Kind of like Biff in This Modern World.

[native]

Attention all you bench warmers. Appy just showed you how to play at the varsity level. I hope you paid attention!

Jeezus... native
You are the single most grotesque abomination of a pseudo intellectual since Bill O'Reilly wore knee pants

1) You create a self serving thread
2) Then post on it endlessly all by yourself until it gets some traction
3) CS.com posters apologetically weigh in to help you out
4) You then proceed to blow your own horn for 3 days
5) Followed by a self congratulatory compliment identifying your high standards of "posting quality"

You are a real piece of work...

Gee, thanks for your contribution, Cleets!

...and thanks to all you helpless hopeless cs apologists who so kindly helped me out.

[dbackjon]

Jeezus... native
You are the single most grotesque abomination of a pseudo intellectual since Bill O'Reilly wore knee pants

1) You create a self serving thread
2) Then post on it endlessly all by yourself until it gets some traction
3) CS.com posters apologetically weigh in to help you out
4) You then proceed to blow your own horn for 3 days
5) Followed by a self congratulatory compliment identifying your high standards of "posting quality"

You are a real piece of work...

Thanks for your contribution, Cleets!

Cleets - he may be an empty suit, but at least it's a freshly pressed suit.