Pwns wrote:
This is the kind of comment I was trolling for.
Honestly, I would argue it has more to do with the myth that playing in the G5 is a significant step up in competition from the best of the FCS. I will give the AAC credit that they are on an entirely different level than the rest of the G5 this year but they don't and won't keep it up year-in and year-out.
BTW, since you're a fan of computer rankings, both App State and Georgia Southern are rated higher than any FCS team in Sagarin, are both top 15 G5 teams, and are rated higher than all but one CUSA team and all but two MAC teams.
Not that I need computer rankings to know we could compete in the MAC or CUSA when we clobbered the only team that could probably challenge Toledo for the MAC west…with our backup QB.
Wait a second! Whoa!
You could compete in the MAC or CUSA with the same schollies!
Perspective, kalm
We could have competed with any team in the MAC or CUSA (and beat most) when we were FCS. However, being competitive week in and week out is a different story.
You could compete in the MAC or CUSA with the same schollies!
Perspective, kalm
We could have competed with any team in the MAC or CUSA (and beat most) when we were FCS. However, being competitive week in and week out is a different story.
Hence the 85 schollies. More competitive in a relatively shitty conference with no playoffs.
Full disclosure: If EWU made the jump I'd probably be making your arguments as well.
ASUG8 wrote:What's the prediction, Baldy and Pwns?
A 1 point win by the good guys.
The games in Boone are an uphill climb no matter how good we are. We have taken some dominating championship winning teams into that God awful place and been humbled more times that I care to remember. Then again, we have taken a mediocre team and slayed the Michigan killer as well. Who the hell knows?
Honestly, I just don't see us winning this year. Dobson got hurt Saturday and word is that he won't play. Plus, Iornhead Gallon and William Bussey have to sit out the first half because of that ridiculous "targeting" bullshit.
Add to that one of our starting Corners struggled off the field and didn't get back into the game either on Saturday.
I went to gsufans and yosefscabin and it's kind of a mixed bag of predictions. Generally it looks like most people are predicting at least a close game of 7 points. I don't like to jump in with a number, but I like how we're playing right now. Throw in a home night game on national TV and it evokes hopeful memories of our Halloween game vs. Wofford a few years back. I don't expect a result like that, but I like our chances.
We could have competed with any team in the MAC or CUSA (and beat most) when we were FCS. However, being competitive week in and week out is a different story.
Hence the 85 schollies. More competitive in a relatively shitty conference with no playoffs.
Full disclosure: If EWU made the jump I'd probably be making your arguments as well.
I miss the playoff structure immensely. However, it's been an institutional struggle for years now. The difference is that we plateaued in FCS, and especially in the SoCon. We quit growing, donations and season ticket sales were maxed out. The potential for growth was and has always been there, but interest was flat.
We could get 16K to 18K for every game. 20K for App or SSU (maybe), but that was it. We were stagnated at about a measly 5K in season ticket holders. Flip the switch to now where our smallest crowd this year has been 23,520, and we're over 7K in season tickets. I don't know the exact numbers, but donations have increased dramatically as well.
Add all that to our prime location smack dab in the middle of the best recruiting areas in the country, and it's a move that should have been made 20 years ago.
kalm wrote:
Hence the 85 schollies. More competitive in a relatively shitty conference with no playoffs.
Full disclosure: If EWU made the jump I'd probably be making your arguments as well.
I miss the playoff structure immensely. However, it's been an institutional struggle for years now. The difference is that we plateaued in FCS, and especially in the SoCon. We quit growing, donations and season ticket sales were maxed out. The potential for growth was and has always been there, but interest was flat.
We could get 16K to 18K for every game. 20K for App or SSU (maybe), but that was it. We were stagnated at about a measly 5K in season ticket holders. Flip the switch to now where our smallest crowd this year has been 23,520, and we're over 7K in season tickets. I don't know the exact numbers, but donations have increased dramatically as well.
Add all that to our prime location smack dab in the middle of the best recruiting areas in the country, and it's a move that should have been made 20 years ago.
So what is the ceiling? If GSU is stuck in the Sun Belt long term, will the fan base be satisfied with never having a chance to even be ranked (No Sun Belt team has ever been ranked in the top 25 at any point), and the best you can hope for is a bowl in Charleston or Montgomery?
ASUG8 wrote:I went to gsufans and yosefscabin and it's kind of a mixed bag of predictions. Generally it looks like most people are predicting at least a close game of 7 points. I don't like to jump in with a number, but I like how we're playing right now. Throw in a home night game on national TV and it evokes hopeful memories of our Halloween game vs. Wofford a few years back. I don't expect a result like that, but I like our chances.
As I'm sure you've noticed, we're way too streaky. There are stretches where we'll dominate for a quarter or two, build up a lead and seem to coast. Aside from WVU, Western Michigan has been by far the best team we've played all season. We played very well, but it was far from our best. WMU is a damn good G5 team and we pounded them into the dirt. We played up to the competition. Hopefully we'll do the same this week, but we'll need to play our best game of the year to win. I pray we do.
My honest opinion is that GS is a more talented team, but App is much more consistent. If we win, it'll be a slugfest. I can also see it snowballing against us too...again. Since App is playing more consistent and seems to have gelled as a unit, it would not surprise me to see you beat us by 2+ scores.
Baldy wrote:
I miss the playoff structure immensely. However, it's been an institutional struggle for years now. The difference is that we plateaued in FCS, and especially in the SoCon. We quit growing, donations and season ticket sales were maxed out. The potential for growth was and has always been there, but interest was flat.
We could get 16K to 18K for every game. 20K for App or SSU (maybe), but that was it. We were stagnated at about a measly 5K in season ticket holders. Flip the switch to now where our smallest crowd this year has been 23,520, and we're over 7K in season tickets. I don't know the exact numbers, but donations have increased dramatically as well.
Add all that to our prime location smack dab in the middle of the best recruiting areas in the country, and it's a move that should have been made 20 years ago.
So what is the ceiling? If GSU is stuck in the Sun Belt long term, will the fan base be satisfied with never having a chance to even be ranked (No Sun Belt team has ever been ranked in the top 25 at any point), and the best you can hope for is a bowl in Charleston or Montgomery?
The ceiling is unlimited. Our job is to win, period. Either the other teams in the conference can catch up, improve and build this conference together, or we'll find greener pastures elsewhere. If we win consistently, take down P5 teams when we need to (and we can), we'll be more attractive to other conferences.
dbackjon wrote:
So what is the ceiling? If GSU is stuck in the Sun Belt long term, will the fan base be satisfied with never having a chance to even be ranked (No Sun Belt team has ever been ranked in the top 25 at any point), and the best you can hope for is a bowl in Charleston or Montgomery?
The Sun Belt won't keep us from getting ranked. If anything, what could keep us from getting ranked is not getting enough games with bad P5 teams. We are certainly not as good as Boise State on their best years, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that we couldn't be ranked with the schedule Toledo has this year or the one NIU had in 2012. When you look at the MAC teams that get ranked, most don't have games against non-bottom-of-the-barrel P5 teams.
Personally, there is no G5 conference worth leaving for other than the AAC and we would need to vastly improve basketball to have any chance there. CUSA is basically even with the SBC as far as I'm concerned with all of their dead-weight "media market" teams and obviously the MAC and Mountain West aren't geographic fits.
The bottom line is that the mainstream of FBS is what we now call the Big 5 conferences plus Notre Dame and Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now a combined 0-5 against the mainstream of FBS since going to FBS. I'm not going to look up the Sun Belt's overall record against the mainstream burt we all know it's miserable.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star? Deep Purple: No One Came
JohnStOnge wrote:The bottom line is that the mainstream of FBS is what we now call the Big 5 conferences plus Notre Dame and Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now a combined 0-5 against the mainstream of FBS since going to FBS. I'm not going to look up the Sun Belt's overall record against the mainstream burt we all know it's miserable.
JohnStOnge wrote:The bottom line is that the mainstream of FBS is what we now call the Big 5 conferences plus Notre Dame and Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now a combined 0-5 against the mainstream of FBS since going to FBS. I'm not going to look up the Sun Belt's overall record against the mainstream burt we all know it's miserable.
Not sure what your point is here. If it's that we aren't peers with Clemson and West Virginia, well no duh. There are exactly zero G5 schools that you can say they genuinely are including those like UCF and Boise that are considered the gold standard.
If you're comparing us to other G5s then I know that you know better than to take that record at face value. So far we've played an ACC bowl team in our first game with a new coach and offensive system and we played the Orange Bowl Champions. This was with a roster that's FCS in almost every sense and we were very much competitive in those games. The third game was against one of the better Big 12 teams with our backup QB and a green OL. App has faced a decent Michigan team and a Clemson team on a trajectory for the CFP.
We (that is GSU) just don't get that many games with P5 bottom-feeders like WKU and Toledo have had this year. As an FCS team we had a worse track record in FBS games than most teams with less success than us. There's a reason for that.
The point is that teams like Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now in a limbo. They are not in the mainstream of anything.
On the point about Georgia Southern and Appalachian State being rated higher in Sagarin than any FCS team is: Yes, but the Sun Belt is rated within the range of FCS conferences. The MVC is rated higher.
And Georgia Southern and App State aren't rated as though they are substantially "separated" from FCS. Appalachian State is the higher rated of the two and they are rated 2.84 points better than North Dakota State on a neutral field. Meanwhile if you compare them to the top of FBS they are rated 24.33 points lower than the top of FBS.
The Sun Belt is comparable to a strong FCS league in caliber and the top teams in the Sun Belt are comparable to strong FCS teams. MUCH more comparable to strong FCS teams than they are to strong FBS teams. It's always been like that and Georgia Southern as well as App State being in the league now hasn't changed things.
It's basically a set of programs trying to pretend they're something they're not.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star? Deep Purple: No One Came
JohnStOnge wrote:The point is that teams like Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now in a limbo. They are not in the mainstream of anything.
On the point about Georgia Southern and Appalachian State being rated higher in Sagarin than any FCS team is: Yes, but the Sun Belt is rated within the range of FCS conferences. The MVC is rated higher.
And Georgia Southern and App State aren't rated as though they are substantially "separated" from FCS. Appalachian State is the higher rated of the two and they are rated 2.84 points better than North Dakota State on a neutral field. Meanwhile if you compare them to the top of FBS they are rated 24.33 points lower than the top of FBS.
The Sun Belt is comparable to a strong FCS league in caliber and the top teams in the Sun Belt are comparable to strong FCS teams. MUCH more comparable to strong FCS teams than they are to strong FBS teams. It's always been like that and Georgia Southern as well as App State being in the league now hasn't changed things.
It's basically a set of programs trying to pretend they're something they're not.
Nice try, John, but you're comparing apples to oranges. If we played P5 teams and competed in a P5 conference, your "logic" would make at least a little sense.
Compare Georgia Southern and Appy to the rest of the G5 and get back to me.
JohnStOnge wrote:The point is that teams like Georgia Southern and Appalachian State are now in a limbo. They are not in the mainstream of anything.
On the point about Georgia Southern and Appalachian State being rated higher in Sagarin than any FCS team is: Yes, but the Sun Belt is rated within the range of FCS conferences. The MVC is rated higher.
And Georgia Southern and App State aren't rated as though they are substantially "separated" from FCS. Appalachian State is the higher rated of the two and they are rated 2.84 points better than North Dakota State on a neutral field. Meanwhile if you compare them to the top of FBS they are rated 24.33 points lower than the top of FBS.
No, I don't think we are "substantially separated" from the FCS. That's not what I'm saying. I am comparing us to the rest of the non-power conferences. GSU and App are higher than about 80% of the G5 and almost all of the MAC and CUSA. Of course year-in and year-out there are several FCS teams that would have good records in the MAC and CUSA if you go by computer rankings. The gap between the best of the FCS and the G5 is largely a myth and I've said that for years on AGS and even argued that with fans from MTSU, North Texas, and WKU on AGS that exact point.
What I do not understand why people continue to single out the Sun Belt as being the "pretender" league when CUSA has a pile of teams in the FBS cellar. Beating up on the Sun Belt is kind of a sport on AGS and CS.com. Case in point: The Sun Belt is horrible because our basement teams lose to mediocre FCS teams, but the CUSA gets a pass for one of its division champs losing to Northwestern State.
And BTW, there is no objective way you can say there's any real substantial separation between any of the G5 leagues except for the AAC.
I think there are several reasons why Sun Belt is looked down on
1) Half the conference is recent FCS teams
2) Some of the worst teams in FBS over the past few years (Ga St, Idaho, NMSU) play in the Sun Belt
3) The Sun Belt has NEVER had a team even ranked in the top 25. The MWC has Boise, AFA, Colorado State, etc - some teams that have made national noise. The AAC has Houston, Memphis, ECU, Cincy - again, teams that have been highly ranked. The C-USA had Houston, even now Marshall was ranked last year. The MAC has had teams ranked, and NIU was top 10 a couple years ago.
4) The fact that two teams (ASU and GSU) that didn't make the FCS playoffs in their last year came in and have so far dominated the Sun Belt also is a negative for the Conference - they had to dip into the So Con to improve quality.
Until the Sun Belt gets some ranked teams, it will always be looked down on.
dbackjon wrote:I think there are several reasons why Sun Belt is looked down on
1) Half the conference is recent FCS teams
2) Some of the worst teams in FBS over the past few years (Ga St, Idaho, NMSU) play in the Sun Belt
3) The Sun Belt has NEVER had a team even ranked in the top 25. The MWC has Boise, AFA, Colorado State, etc - some teams that have made national noise. The AAC has Houston, Memphis, ECU, Cincy - again, teams that have been highly ranked. The C-USA had Houston, even now Marshall was ranked last year. The MAC has had teams ranked, and NIU was top 10 a couple years ago.
4) The fact that two teams (ASU and GSU) that didn't make the FCS playoffs in their last year came in and have so far dominated the Sun Belt also is a negative for the Conference - they had to dip into the So Con to improve quality.
Until the Sun Belt gets some ranked teams, it will always be looked down on.
Well, Appy and GSU weren't eligible for the playoffs our last year, either.
The Sun Belt is a feeder conference. There is no doubt about that. Unfortunately for us, you have to start somewhere. As I said, all we can do is just win games, beat some P5's along the way, win bowl games, and improve our facilities. Either the rest of the conference can keep up and improve or we will find greener pastures elsewhere.
What's your point?
