Official CS.com Pelosi Political Death Watch Thread

[CID1990]

Re: Steny Hoyer

Agreed that he and Rahm are close, but Steny is a known moderate with a proven record of bipartisanship. He is also not nearly as polarizing as Fancy Nancy. Until he proves otherwise, his integrity is intact. Pelosi's isn't.

[native]

Good point. It is very hard to properly decide when and how to engage.

However, I disagree with your conclusion on Vietnam, and it is too early to make a judgement on Iraq.

It is clear from the post war horrors against innocent civilians in Cambodia and to a lesser extent in Laos and Vietnam that the Domino Theory was valid. Before you claim that they were caused by the U.S., Ho Chi Minh murdered a few thousands of his own long before Johnson's escalation of the war.

Isolationism didn't work after WWI. Korea, where we successfully protected a relatvely free regime, can be considered a success. Korea is the closest equivalent to Vietnam.

Hey, dicknose. Ho Chi Minh begged for help from Roosevelt and was ignored. Ho couldn't figure out why a country with a history of oppression from an overlord, such as we had, would abandon another country finding itself in the same straights. And he was 100% right.

Our war against the North Vietnamese was more than 100% race-based.

**** off.

What kind of assistance would we have provided to Ho? Help him assassinate his political opponents? Help him execute 50,000 of his own people as part of an "agrarian reform" effort, and inprison 50k to 100k more? Help him establish a communist workers paradise? Pay his travel expenses to the PRC?

What do you think you know about Ho Chi Minh?

May you be blessed to live in the type of communist regime (Ho Chi Minh's pre-1970's North Vietnam) you are so anxious to defend.

Do you have a clue how many innocent civilians (non-combatants) have been executed by communist regimes in Southeast Asia, including both pre-war and post-war Vietnam?

Do innocent civilians matter to you?

[Cap'n Cat]

Hey, dicknose. Ho Chi Minh begged for help from Roosevelt and was ignored. Ho couldn't figure out why a country with a history of oppression from an overlord, such as we had, would abandon another country finding itself in the same straights. And he was 100% right.

Our war against the North Vietnamese was more than 100% race-based.

**** off.

What kind of assistance would we have provided to Ho? Help him assassinate his political opponents? Help him execute 50,000 of his own people as part of an "agrarian reform" effort, and inprison 50k to 100k more? Help him establish a communist workers paradise? Pay his travel expenses to the PRC?

What do you think you know about Ho Chi Minh?

May you be blessed to live in the type of communist regime (Ho Chi Minh's pre-1970's North Vietnam) you are so anxious to defend.

Do you have a clue how many innocent civilians (non-combatants) have been executed by communist regimes in Southeast Asia, including both pre-war and post-war Vietnam?

Do innocent civilians matter to you?

Jesus....communists, civilians. Here we go.


STFU, Junior. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about that conflict. Do yourself and us a favor and pick up a book about it that is more than 50 pages, and, this time, read it and not stare at that beaver pic of the little naked girl runnin' from the napalm bomb your Uncle Bernie dropped on her school, then come here regurgitating what your drunk Conk dad said at the dinner table once when you were ten, just before he bitch-slapped your mom for her "not-in-front-of-the-kids-Harold" remark, you dork. Know the complete background before you post again here, you superficial headline-reading Conk fuck.




And while you're worried about innocent civilians, you full baby's diaper dickhead, count up the milliions of civilians dead at the hands of America's, AHEM, finest.

God, that felt good. I hate mewling Conk fucks who don't know the full story on shit.

[travelinman67]

Good point. It is very hard to properly decide when and how to engage.

However, I disagree with your conclusion on Vietnam, and it is too early to make a judgement on Iraq.

It is clear from the post war horrors against innocent civilians in Cambodia and to a lesser extent in Laos and Vietnam that the Domino Theory was valid. Before you claim that they were caused by the U.S., Ho Chi Minh murdered a few thousands of his own long before Johnson's escalation of the war.

Isolationism didn't work after WWI. Korea, where we successfully protected a relatvely free regime, can be considered a success. Korea is the closest equivalent to Vietnam.

Hey, dicknose. Ho Chi Minh begged for help from Roosevelt and was ignored. Ho couldn't figure out why a country with a history of oppression from an overlord, such as we had, would abandon another country finding itself in the same straights. And he was 100% right.

Our war against the North Vietnamese was more than 100% race-based.

Fuck off.

Oh, horsecrap, Communist Cat. We were drug into the Indochina War when France let that little class genocidal maniac attempt to create and independent communist republic. Minh petitioned Truman, not Roosevelt, and it was Truman's refusal to acknowledge Minh and his petition which ultimately sealed the U.S.'s fate and drew us into the conflict.
Minh was a 100% Stalinist/Maoist communist, and followed their footsteps in perpetuity by butchering all the Vietnamese landowners/wealthy and "re-patrioting" their land and assets.

The atrocities committed by communist leaders attempting to further their agenda make all democratic/capitalist nation's wrongs pale in comparison.

But I understand FACTS rarely play a role in your opinions.

[Ibanez]

Hey guys, GET BACK ON TRACK!

[CID1990]

I didn't realize how bad and murderous we are.

Maybe China, Burma and Iran should invade us to liberate us from ourselves.

[native]

Hey, dicknose. Ho Chi Minh begged for help from Roosevelt and was ignored. Ho couldn't figure out why a country with a history of oppression from an overlord, such as we had, would abandon another country finding itself in the same straights. And he was 100% right.

Our war against the North Vietnamese was more than 100% race-based.

**** off.

Oh, horsecrap, Communist Cat. We were drug into the Indochina War when France let that little class genocidal maniac attempt to create and independent communist republic. Minh petitioned Truman, not Roosevelt, and it was Truman's refusal to acknowledge Minh and his petition which ultimately sealed the U.S.'s fate and drew us into the conflict.
Minh was a 100% Stalinist/Maoist communist, and followed their footsteps in perpetuity by butchering all the Vietnamese landowners/wealthy and "re-patrioting" their land and assets.

The atrocities committed by communist leaders attempting to further their agenda make all democratic/capitalist nation's wrongs pale in comparison.

But I understand FACTS rarely play a role in your opinions.

See new thread: "Vietnamese Communist Democide"

[native]

Hey guys, GET BACK ON TRACK!

Please see new thread, "Vietnamese Communist Democide."

[houndawg]

Please explain this to me...
the concept that a "sacrifice" is relational to an "accomplishment" in terms you describe above..?

By being shot down repeatedly - as an admitted terrible pilot and then finally captured...
he accomplished more than some arbitrary value you have applied to others..?

seriously explain this...

1,000 is 10 x 10 x 10. Seriously. Fourier transformations were my undoing, so I had to keep the math simple.

On the other hand, it is apparent you understand nothing of honor, duty or sacrifice, so I will not bore you with it.

Anyone who wants to make fun of POWs can go straight to hell.

Get down off of your high horse.

John McCain was in Viet Nam to make it safe for Standard Oil to begin exploiting what were then the world's largest unproven reserves of oil. That he graduated at the bottom of his class, wasn't a very good pilot, and only got to fly off a carrier because his dad was an Admiral are all common knowledge and have nothing to do with his POW status. Fourier transforms kicked my ass, too.

[CID1990]

1,000 is 10 x 10 x 10. Seriously. Fourier transformations were my undoing, so I had to keep the math simple.

On the other hand, it is apparent you understand nothing of honor, duty or sacrifice, so I will not bore you with it.

Anyone who wants to make fun of POWs can go straight to hell.

Get down off of your high horse.

John McCain was in Viet Nam to make it safe for Standard Oil to begin exploiting what were then the world's largest unproven reserves of oil. That he graduated at the bottom of his class, wasn't a very good pilot, and only got to fly off a carrier because his dad was an Admiral are all common knowledge and have nothing to do with his POW status. Fourier transforms kicked my ass, too.

Dude. I'm not a huge fan of McCain, but that's just ignorance talking right there.

I come from a big family of aviators, many of them Navy and Marine Corps, and I can tell you that they don't just "let" you fly off of carriers. It doesn't matter if your father is Jesus Christ Superstar, you don't get through Pensacola if you can't fly.

No admiral ever minted carries that kind of clout.

[Cap'n Cat]

I didn't realize how bad and murderous we are.

Maybe China, Burma and Iran should invade us to liberate us from ourselves.

No need. Bush is gone, replaced by a human.

[houndawg]

average voter doesn't know who she is... and many who do know... dont care.

i've polled on Nancy in both 06 and 08... her name ID in the two districts i was in was something like 35% at it's highest... and most of that was among Dems and hardcore GOP

swing voters dont know her well, nor do they care...

And what were Trent Lott's name ID numbers in those districts when his train crashed?

TTBF...you WISH she stays in only because it provides party continuity and strength to the party you support.

Pelosi is the single worst House leader of the past century, yet Dems like yourself don't have the courage to step up and put her out to pasture.

Just try and imagine for a moment what the House would be like with Sten Hoyer at the helm rather than Pelosi...

...Hoyer is a dyed-in-the-wool left wing Dem, has the money connections, and has paid his dues.

Replace Pelosi with Hoyer, then offer Reid a vacation cruise package off the coast of Somalia.

The out-of-touch wing of the Republican Party has spoken. Looks like Nancy is safe.

[houndawg]

I wanna go to one of those clinics in the Ozarks where you're taken off everything and fed fruits and veggies and fiberous grains for three months and tied to a bed so you can't cheat. Start over.

C,mon down Cap'n, we'll put your big ass to work on the several thousand trees that are still down after the derecho.

[houndawg]

Get down off of your high horse.

John McCain was in Viet Nam to make it safe for Standard Oil to begin exploiting what were then the world's largest unproven reserves of oil. That he graduated at the bottom of his class, wasn't a very good pilot, and only got to fly off a carrier because his dad was an Admiral are all common knowledge and have nothing to do with his POW status. Fourier transforms kicked my ass, too.

Dude. I'm not a huge fan of McCain, but that's just ignorance talking right there.

I come from a big family of aviators, many of them Navy and Marine Corps, and I can tell you that they don't just "let" you fly off of carriers. It doesn't matter if your father is Jesus Christ Superstar, you don't get through Pensacola if you can't fly.

No admiral ever minted carries that kind of clout.

OK. So just who was covering his ass after losing a plane to pilot error in Corpus Christi bay and cutting power lines in Spain in what he himself describes as "daredevil clowning"? I'll bet most pilots careers wouldn't have survived those incidents.

[UNI88]

Interesting commentary in yesterday's Chicago Tribune on Pelosi & torture ...

Pelosi, the political logjam
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 8670.story

Forget about where you come down on "torture" or "enhanced interrogations." The simple fact is that, as a political matter, the drive for a "truth commission" -- never mind a war crimes tribunal -- is dead as long as Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the House.

And while I oppose the sort of witch hunt Pelosi and her energumens clearly crave, this isn't necessarily good news.

Pelosi is blocking the road to ritual human sacrifice because there's ample evidence that she was complicit in what she righteously condemns as torture. Principled opponents of the CIA's program insist that what Pelosi knew and when she knew it is irrelevant to the substantive issues at stake.

And they are absolutely right.

If you honestly think waterboarding is criminal torture -- I don't -- then Pelosi's approval of it is unfortunate and indicts her too, but it doesn't change the fact that crimes were committed. The problem for the Democrats is that politically, they cannot excuse their own leader while setting up a Nuremberg trial for Republican officials and honest lawyers who were merely doing their job. War crimes cannot only be war crimes when committed by Republicans.

....

If the Bush administration made mistakes or committed crimes fighting the war on terror, those errors were far more bipartisan and systemic than the witch hunters want to acknowledge. A real truth commission might illuminate that fact. But that's the last thing Pelosi ever wanted. Meanwhile, Republicans clamoring for her scalp might ponder what they'll get if they succeed in forcing the Democrats to throw Pelosi over the side.

[houndawg]

Interesting commentary in yesterday's Chicago Tribune on Pelosi & torture ...

Pelosi, the political logjam
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 8670.story

Forget about where you come down on "torture" or "enhanced interrogations." The simple fact is that, as a political matter, the drive for a "truth commission" -- never mind a war crimes tribunal -- is dead as long as Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the House.

And while I oppose the sort of witch hunt Pelosi and her energumens clearly crave, this isn't necessarily good news.

Pelosi is blocking the road to ritual human sacrifice because there's ample evidence that she was complicit in what she righteously condemns as torture. Principled opponents of the CIA's program insist that what Pelosi knew and when she knew it is irrelevant to the substantive issues at stake.

And they are absolutely right.

If you honestly think waterboarding is criminal torture -- I don't -- then Pelosi's approval of it is unfortunate and indicts her too, but it doesn't change the fact that crimes were committed. The problem for the Democrats is that politically, they cannot excuse their own leader while setting up a Nuremberg trial for Republican officials and honest lawyers who were merely doing their job. War crimes cannot only be war crimes when committed by Republicans.

....

If the Bush administration made mistakes or committed crimes fighting the war on terror, those errors were far more bipartisan and systemic than the witch hunters want to acknowledge. A real truth commission might illuminate that fact. But that's the last thing Pelosi ever wanted. Meanwhile, Republicans clamoring for her scalp might ponder what they'll get if they succeed in forcing the Democrats to throw Pelosi over the side.

Full ahead and let the chips fall where they may; we've lost an enormous amount of goodwill and prestige on the world stage and we won't be the only superpower for very much longer. We need to pick up our game real fast.

[AZGrizFan]

If she was black, AZgrizfan would have already shot her in dome lid.

Depends on whether she was hot or not.

[native]

Dude. I'm not a huge fan of McCain, but that's just ignorance talking right there.

I come from a big family of aviators, many of them Navy and Marine Corps, and I can tell you that they don't just "let" you fly off of carriers. It doesn't matter if your father is Jesus Christ Superstar, you don't get through Pensacola if you can't fly.

No admiral ever minted carries that kind of clout.

OK. So just who was covering his ass after losing a plane to pilot error in Corpus Christi bay and cutting power lines in Spain in what he himself describes as "daredevil clowning"? I'll bet most pilots careers wouldn't have survived those incidents.

Times have changed. McCain's antics were common for his time.

Those of us who came later had to work harder to avoid getting caught.

[houndawg]

OK. So just who was covering his ass after losing a plane to pilot error in Corpus Christi bay and cutting power lines in Spain in what he himself describes as "daredevil clowning"? I'll bet most pilots careers wouldn't have survived those incidents.

Times have changed. McCain's antics were common for his time.

Those of us who came later had to work harder to avoid getting caught.

Thank you for sharing your insight.

[CID1990]

Dude. I'm not a huge fan of McCain, but that's just ignorance talking right there.

I come from a big family of aviators, many of them Navy and Marine Corps, and I can tell you that they don't just "let" you fly off of carriers. It doesn't matter if your father is Jesus Christ Superstar, you don't get through Pensacola if you can't fly.

No admiral ever minted carries that kind of clout.

OK. So just who was covering his ass after losing a plane to pilot error in Corpus Christi bay and cutting power lines in Spain in what he himself describes as "daredevil clowning"? I'll bet most pilots careers wouldn't have survived those incidents.

My uncle is still considered to be one of the best USMC fighter pilots post-Vietnam, and some of the crap he pulled was right along those lines. If we fired every pilot who dunked an airplane or did something goofy then we wouldn't have any pilots worth a damn. Corpus Christie is where LOTS of Navy and Marine Corps pilots put airplanes in the drink.

I think you originally said that the only reason the Navy "let" John McCain fly off carriers was because of his father. There happen to be many pilots like John McCain who also did juvenile things and remained flight ready without the benefit of admirals in the family. We don't fire guys like that because they are usually just the kind of people we need in the cockpits, especially during wartime.

Seriously Houndawg, you have some fairly insightful posts and seem like a smart guy, but you are showing your ignorance about Navy/Marine aviation here.

[dbackjon]

Is it also possible that McCain DID get preferential treatment because of who his father and grandfather were?

[native]

Is it also possible that McCain DID get preferential treatment because of who his father and grandfather were?

Since he was severely injured when captured and subsequently became sick, it probably saved McCain's life by getting him medical treatment when his captors found out about his dad and grandad. The communists didn't want to hand the U.S. a propaganda coup by having the Admiral's son die in their custory.

But because of who he was and his innate stubbornness, they made his life infinitely more miserable when he refused to coorprate to their liking.