This is why Religion and Politics don't mix well...

[Chizzang]

Only a Religion could explain this kind of thought process
All Religions - at one time or another - when in charge of political processes have behaved as such

"Saudi court sentences poet to death for renouncing Islam...
A Palestinian poet and leading member of Saudi Arabia’s nascent contemporary art scene has been sentenced to death for renouncing Islam.

A Saudi court on Tuesday ordered the execution of Ashraf Fayadh, who has curated art shows in Jeddah and at the Venice Biennale. The poet, who said he did not have legal representation, was given 30 days to appeal against the ruling."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... ng%20Brief" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kalm]

Yeah! Let's give them guns and money!

[CAA Flagship]

Yeah! Let's give them guns and money!

Who? Poets?

[Grizalltheway]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/op ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Chizzang]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/op ... .html?_r=0

Yup..!!! ^

"The West’s denial regarding Saudi Arabia is striking: It salutes the theocracy as its ally but pretends not to notice that it is the world’s chief ideological sponsor of Islamist culture..."

[kalm]

Yeah! Let's give them guns and money!

Who? Poets?

Obama, Hillary, and your boys Bush and Christie who grovel at the house of Saud.

[Baldy]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/op ... .html?_r=0

Yup..!!! ^

"The West’s denial regarding Saudi Arabia is striking: It salutes the theocracy as its ally but pretends not to notice that it is the world’s chief ideological sponsor of Islamist culture..."

Oh the irony.

Many of the same people wringing their hands and whining about the Saudis are the same ones who want to enrich them further, and won't let us exploit our own oil reserves and cut the umbilical cord to their oil wells.

[Grizalltheway]

Yup..!!! ^

"The West’s denial regarding Saudi Arabia is striking: It salutes the theocracy as its ally but pretends not to notice that it is the world’s chief ideological sponsor of Islamist culture..."

Oh the irony.

Many of the same people wringing their hands and whining about the Saudis are the same ones who want to enrich them further, and won't let us exploit our own oil reserves and cut the umbilical cord to their oil wells.

Won't let us? We're producing more oil and natural gas than we ever have before.

B-b-but ANWR!!

[Baldy]

Oh the irony.

Many of the same people wringing their hands and whining about the Saudis are the same ones who want to enrich them further, and won't let us exploit our own oil reserves and cut the umbilical cord to their oil wells.

Won't let us? We're producing more oil and natural gas than we ever have before.

B-b-but ANWR!!

WTAG the fracking cheerleader.



Again, if those same people had their way, we couldn't do that either.

Until you're ready to get off of Middle Eastern oil, quit your whining and crying.

[Grizalltheway]

Won't let us? We're producing more oil and natural gas than we ever have before.

B-b-but ANWR!!

WTAG the fracking cheerleader.



Again, if those same people had their way, we couldn't do that either.

Until you're ready to get off of Middle Eastern oil, quit your whining and crying.

When the fuck have I ever said anything against fracking? Even if I did, there's a big difference between people expressing their opinion on something and "not letting us".

[kalm]

Won't let us? We're producing more oil and natural gas than we ever have before.

B-b-but ANWR!!

WTAG the fracking cheerleader.



Again, if those same people had their way, we couldn't do that either.

Until you're ready to get off of Middle Eastern oil, quit your whining and crying.

You must be a huge Jimmy Carter fan.

[CID1990]

Actually Clertz- Islam is a religion AND a system of government. Mohammed set it up that way.

And if you are a Muslim and you are OK with Islam as a system of governance, then you are in the vast majority


This is a fundamental truth that liberals don't get- moderate Muslims may not all agree with cutting off thieves hands, but they overwhelmingly agree with Islamic governance, which leads to the official barbarity we see in Arabia. It is the natural endpoint of the caliphate.

[kalm]

Actually Clertz- Islam is a religion AND a system of government. Mohammed set it up that way.

And if you are a Muslim and you are OK with Islam as a system of governance, then you are in the vast majority


This is a fundamental truth that liberals don't get- moderate Muslims may not all agree with cutting off thieves hands, but they overwhelmingly agree with Islamic governance, which leads to the official barbarity we see in Arabia. It is the natural endpoint of the caliphate.

I sure am glad Christians don't try and use christianity as a basis for governing!

(Obligatory acknowledgement that muslims are worse aside)

[CID1990]

Actually Clertz- Islam is a religion AND a system of government. Mohammed set it up that way.

And if you are a Muslim and you are OK with Islam as a system of governance, then you are in the vast majority


This is a fundamental truth that liberals don't get- moderate Muslims may not all agree with cutting off thieves hands, but they overwhelmingly agree with Islamic governance, which leads to the official barbarity we see in Arabia. It is the natural endpoint of the caliphate.

I sure am glad Christians don't try and use christianity as a basis for governing!

(Obligatory acknowledgement that muslims are worse aside)

Feel free to start a thread about it, klam

This one is about actual theological governance as it pertains to islam- not what a few fundies in Alabama would like to see

But yeah that which you pointed out was totally unexpected of you

[kalm]

I sure am glad Christians don't try and use christianity as a basis for governing!

(Obligatory acknowledgement that muslims are worse aside)

Feel free to start a thread about it, klam

This one is about actual theological governance as it pertains to islam- not what a few fundies in Alabama would like to see

But yeah that which you pointed out was totally unexpected of you

oh...I'm sorry. I thought you were singling out Islam as unique or something. Guess I'll go read the op again.

[Pwns]

Does Venezuela prove liberalism and politics don't mix?

(Just trying to troll chizz )

[Chizzang]

Does Venezuela prove liberalism and politics don't mix?

(Just trying to troll chizz )

Well actually it kinda does...
No ideological extreme works as a total system

[CID1990]

Feel free to start a thread about it, klam

This one is about actual theological governance as it pertains to islam- not what a few fundies in Alabama would like to see

But yeah that which you pointed out was totally unexpected of you

oh...I'm sorry. I thought you were singling out Islam as unique or something. Guess I'll go read the op again.

Actually, as a form of government and a religion rolled into one, it IS unique in that respect

I could suggest some reading by a couple experts (and liberals) if you want to learn something so you can avoid being cliche

[Chizzang]

oh...I'm sorry. I thought you were singling out Islam as unique or something. Guess I'll go read the op again.

Actually, as a form of government and a religion rolled into one, it IS unique in that respect

I could suggest some reading by a couple experts (and liberals) if you want to learn something so you can avoid being cliche

Again: Religion and Politics don't mix
And the Religion and Politics being rolled into one changes nothing about the original statement

Cake and Raisins don't mix
Regardless of the fact that the cake may include raisins in the recipe or you choose to add raisins
The results are always = Cake and Raisins don't mix

[CID1990]

Actually, as a form of government and a religion rolled into one, it IS unique in that respect

I could suggest some reading by a couple experts (and liberals) if you want to learn something so you can avoid being cliche

Again: Religion and Politics don't mix
And the Religion and Politics being rolled into one changes nothing about the original statement

Cake and Raisins don't mix
Regardless of the fact that the cake may include raisins in the recipe or you choose to add raisins
The results are always = Cake and Raisins don't mix

I hear you.

What I'm saying is that Islam was actually CREATED as a form of government as much as a religion- I agree that politics and religion don't mix -

Which is why I brought up this example- in Islam the two are inseparable. Your belief that politics and religion don't mix would be met with agreement from majorities in all the world religions except for one.

In other words, Islam - as practiced in its traditional form, is incompatible with liberal democratic principles. Someone has to compromise, and there is no provision for that in Islam. Therefore: Saudi Arabia

[Skjellyfetti]

*double post*

[Skjellyfetti]

Someone has to compromise, and there is no provision for that in Islam. Therefore: Saudi Arabia

You like to point out countries like Saudi Arabia. And, they are pretty fucking shameful.

But, there are also only about 27 million muslims in saudi arabia. That's a pretty fucking small piece.

Take secular muslim countries like Indonesia (230 million) and Bangledesh (162 million).

There are close to 400 million muslims in those two countries.

There are more muslims in these two moderate (and overwhelmingly muslim) countries than in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, UAE, Qatar, and Yemen. COMBINED.

Bangladesh and its ~160 million muslims have elected women as their heads of state for the past 24 years. Since Bangladesh introduced a parliamentary system... they haven't elected a single man to be their head of state.



There is room for compromise in Islam. It's just that some low information folks think that Islam is the same as Wahhabism. And, it's not. At all.

Our problem is with Wahhabism and not with Islam.

[CID1990]

Someone has to compromise, and there is no provision for that in Islam. Therefore: Saudi Arabia

You like to point out countries like Saudi Arabia. And, they are pretty **** shameful.

But, there are also only about 27 million muslims in saudi arabia. That's a pretty **** small piece.

Take secular muslim countries like Indonesia (230 million) and Bangledesh (162 million).

There are close to 400 million muslims in those two countries.

There are more muslims in these two moderate (and overwhelmingly muslim) countries than in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, UAE, Qatar, and Yemen. COMBINED.

Bangladesh and its ~160 million muslims have elected women as their heads of state for the past 24 years. Since Bangladesh introduced a parliamentary system... they haven't elected a single man to be their head of state.



There is room for compromise in Islam. It's just that some low information folks think that Islam is the same as Wahhabism. And, it's not. At all.

Our problem is with Wahhabism and not with Islam.

I was REALLY hoping klam would bring up Indonesia or Bangladesh but I got Jelly!

Both Indonesia and Bangladesh, in spite of their stable governments, both are currently and have long been suffering from the effects of Islamic extremism Bangladesh more than Indonesia- which arises DIRECTLY from the fact that their governments are moderate as you point out.

Bangladesh is quite the Islamic paradise ... with the daily honor killings and acid being thrown in the faces of women. And Bangladesh does in fact incorporate many of the more endearing tenets of Islamic governance - like the fact that being gay is punishable by imprisonment there.

Indonesia, as much as people like to hold them forth as an example of what Islam really is, is an outlier. It is the exception in a sea of states that practice Islamic governance to varying degrees. And having been there as well as other Southeast Asian countries with Muslim populations (including Vietnam where a small minority is in the central part of the country), this moderation is largely a function of the Confucian tradition of those countries. Their history has had a moderating effect on the brand of Islam practiced there. But in spite of that, Indonesia still has morality laws that are directly tied to Islamic tenets of governance - such as blasphemy.

If the United States was anywhere NEAR as "moderate" as these icons of Islamic moderation you wouldn't be able to live there, Jelly.

[Skjellyfetti]

I never said that there were no fundamentalist or terrorist elements in those countries. They are on the rise in both countries - but, this is a product of the spread of Wahhabism to these countries... NOT the spread of Islam. Again, our enemy is Wahhabism and not Islam.



I was disagreeing with your statement that there can be no compromise, no democratic institutions, etc. by countries with overwhelming muslim populations.



You agree that they are moderate:

their governments are moderate as you point out.

Their history has had a moderating effect on the brand of Islam practiced there.

Certainly a step back from the statement I was responding to:

Someone has to compromise, and there is no provision for that in Islam. Therefore: Saudi Arabia

Seems like you've adjusted your reductionist position and we're in agreement now.

[CID1990]

I never said that there were no fundamentalist or terrorist elements in those countries. They are on the rise in both countries - but, this is a product of the spread of Wahhabism to these countries... NOT the spread of Islam. Again, our enemy is Wahhabism and not Islam.



I was disagreeing with your statement that there can be no compromise, no democratic institutions, etc. by countries with overwhelming muslim populations.



You agree that they are moderate:

their governments are moderate as you point out.

Their history has had a moderating effect on the brand of Islam practiced there.

Certainly a step back from the statement I was responding to:

Someone has to compromise, and there is no provision for that in Islam. Therefore: Saudi Arabia

Seems like you've adjusted your reductionist position and we're in agreement now.

Nit picking a semantic argument is no argument.

Tell you what- since the bright shiny parts distract you, I'll just make my claim again - Islam was founded as a form of government built into a religion. ALL Islamic countries follow this blueprint to varying degrees. None of them are caliphates, not even Saudi Arabia - but that's not the point

Your claim that solely Wahabbism is the problem is as absurd as trying to carve off Catholicism from the rest of Christianity and claiming it is the driving force in the pro life movement- and besides that you are simply incorrect

Unless Iran is a Wahabbist state. Wanna look that one up? I forget