The Problem with Holy Books

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The Problem with Holy Books

Post by kalm »

So blame the books? What about personal responsibility? Oh wait...you can't have that if the books are important and true.

Some interesting ideas here and I'd like to see some thoughts from some of our more noble and pious posters.

(And yes, Christians and Islamaphobes, muslims are worse. :mrgreen: )
Beliefs dictate behavior, and strong belief is a strong dictator. Under the influence of bibliolatry, some Christian parents beat their children to death, convinced they are doing the will of God. Missionaries dedicate their lives to eradicating indigenous cultures and spiritual practices. Priests tell desperate Africans that condoms cause AIDS. And Jihadis behead infidels and stone women they perceive as loose. Each of these appalling violations of universal human values such as kindness and compassion is a case of devout believers simply obeying passages that their religious institutions and traditions have bound between the covers of an immutable book, and then called Holy.

Many Peaceful Believers Practice Bibliolatry

Many modernist Muslims and Christians recognize that their sacred texts are the work of human hands—a record of humanity’s long struggle to understand what is Real and what is Good. These believers knowingly embrace what they find timeless and wise in their received traditions, and treat the rest as a window into history. But in Islam, in particular, this view has been slow to take hold.

Hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims and Christians claim that their sacred texts are perfect and complete without ever confronting what that actually means: that slavery, sexual slavery, torture and genocide can, under the right circumstances, be holy. That women and children are property of men. That the Golden Rule doesn’t apply to nonbelievers. And that blasphemy is a greater sin than killing the blasphemer.

Most Christians and Muslims are decent and kind despite the toxic fragments of Iron Age culture that got bound up in their sacred texts, which sit in multiple copies on the shelves of churches, mosques, schools and homes. They are decent and kind in spite of book worship, not because of it. Many are mercifully oblivious to the cruel prescriptions they carry around in leather bindings.

Given a bit of wiggle room or ambiguity, most people instinctively live in the ways that we must if we want thriving families and prosperous communities–by being reasonably fair and kind and honest and resolving disagreements without violence. Moral intuitions and our cultural hive-mind for the most part trump the unexamined insistence that the Sacred Texts are perfect. Hundreds of millions of believers cherry pick, wisely elevating the best and shunning the worst in their respective traditions, even as they loudly proclaim otherwise, denying their own ability and responsibility to separate the wheat from the chaff. They form spiritual communities around sets of values and practices that overlap with the Iron Age prescriptions of the Quran and Bible only in part.

The High Cost of Having it Both Ways


But the refusal of moderate believers to acknowledge what they subconsciously know—that their sacred texts are incomplete and imperfect—has enormous costs. As long as broad communities of faith continue to endorse the idea that the Quran and Bible are perfect and complete revelations from God, then the Iron Age texts they contain will continue, under the right combination of circumstances, to give rise to the Iron Age behaviors that the texts endorse. Like those of ISIS.

ISIS has Islam wrong. What they do violates Islam. The problem isn’t Islam, but extremism. We’ve all heard the arguments. What the speaker inevitably means is “What they do violates my Islam” or “What they do violates what I see as Islam’s highest ideals.” And from his or her own vantage, the speaker is right. But if moderate Muslims claim that the Quran is beyond criticism, as a package, then they can no more assert that ISIS is a perversion of faith than ISIS can assert the reverse.

Only when people acknowledge some higher ethical principles and empirical standards against which to measure the teachings of our ancestors—and only when we acknowledge that some passages measured against these standards are found wanting—does anyone have a basis for faulting ISIS or Christian Fundamentalists on the grounds that they have gotten Islam or Christianity wrong.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/how-iro ... extremism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by YoUDeeMan »

That was a well written, and well though out, article. :nod: :thumb:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by ASUG8 »

Interesting read. :nod:

Having grown up going to church (but rarely attending as an adult) I wonder if the way I live my life today is due to some internal moral compass or from cherry picking some of the tenets of Christianity from my younger years. Most of us believe that murder, theft, and adultery should be avoided, and treating others like you'd like to be treated isn't a bad thing.

It's kind of a chicken and egg argument. Millions of people grow up without a basis in church teachings yet follow the same path and general beliefs that those of us who did have that exposure do. Is it a fear of prison or legal repercussions? Or is it some internal morality that the majority of people seem to share? Is it family/friends' counsel and impact over time to help people mostly do the right thing?

I have no answers, but it's an interesting conversation.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Wedgebuster »

The original goal of organized religions was to give humans a template for moving towards a civilized existence. Much the same template that is presented to us via other sources, being brought up in a civilized home by civilized people, education, peer pressure, etc.

It is the humans that warp religion, kill in the name of their religion, twist and morph scriptures to suit their own greed, and their own ambitions, all the time pointing to their religion to justify their actions.

We as a nation are starting to move away from organized religions, if it were not for the fact that many humans need to feel like there is a great purpose, and that a "sky daddy" is needed in their lives to make them feel whole, and empowered, the churches would already be mostly diminished.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Ibanez »

What a good read. Growing up in a Catholic household, attending Sunday School and Catholic school, the infallibility of the Bible is drilled into your skill without addressing the issues of God-sanctioned/recommended slavery, murder, etc... For many, it's ignored. They focus on some parts ( OT quotes on homosexuality) and ignore other (OT quotes on touching pig skins or wearing clothes made of 2 or more materials).

And I second ASUG8's post, especially the 2nd paragraph.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Wedgebuster wrote:The original goal of organized religions was to give humans a template for moving towards a civilized existence.
:dunce: Yeah, slaying people for simple indiscretions = "moving towards a civilized existence." Sinners will burn in hell forever = "moving towards a civilized existence."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

In actuality, the goal of organized religions was/is simply to inspire fear in order to control people. Some parents use the same techniques. :lol:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Ibanez »

Wedgebuster wrote:The original goal of organized religions was to give humans a template for moving towards a civilized existence. Much the same template that is presented to us via other sources, being brought up in a civilized home by civilized people, education, peer pressure, etc.

It is the humans that warp religion, kill in the name of their religion, twist and morph scriptures to suit their own greed, and their own ambitions, all the time pointing to their religion to justify their actions.

We as a nation are starting to move away from organized religions, if it were not for the fact that many humans need to feel like there is a great purpose, and that a "sky daddy" is needed in their lives to make them feel whole, and empowered, the churches would already be mostly diminished.

Religion is a tool for population control. It's easy to control a group of people when you dictate their actions and words and use fear-mongering as your defense. It's all mind control. :twocents:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

Meh. You guys who hate religion can't make up your minds. One minute you say people aren't following their religion closely enough, the next you say they are taking it too literally. The truth is, a VAST, VAST, VAST, VAST majority of religious people don't commit heinous acts in the name of their religion. Hell, they don't even commit minor ones. They keep to themselves, celebrate with each other and go about their lives with you never knowing they attend church all the time, that they donate money to the church, that they volunteer time with charities associated with the church.... My God, they're almost normal people. :lol:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by bandl »

89Hen wrote:They keep to themselves, celebrate with each other and go about their lives with you never knowing they attend church all the time, that they donate money to the church, that they volunteer time with charities associated with the church.... My God, they're almost normal people. :lol:
Sorta like cross-fitters and vegans. You'd never even know...
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by YoUDeeMan »

89Hen wrote:Meh. You guys who hate religion can't make up your minds. One minute you say people aren't following their religion closely enough, the next you say they are taking it too literally.
Those two observations are not exclusive to each other.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote:Meh. You guys who hate religion can't make up your minds. One minute you say people aren't following their religion closely enough, the next you say they are taking it too literally. The truth is, a VAST, VAST, VAST, VAST majority of religious people don't commit heinous acts in the name of their religion. Hell, they don't even commit minor ones. They keep to themselves, celebrate with each other and go about their lives with you never knowing they attend church all the time, that they donate money to the church, that they volunteer time with charities associated with the church.... My God, they're almost normal people. :lol:
I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

Ibanez wrote:
89Hen wrote:Meh. You guys who hate religion can't make up your minds. One minute you say people aren't following their religion closely enough, the next you say they are taking it too literally. The truth is, a VAST, VAST, VAST, VAST majority of religious people don't commit heinous acts in the name of their religion. Hell, they don't even commit minor ones. They keep to themselves, celebrate with each other and go about their lives with you never knowing they attend church all the time, that they donate money to the church, that they volunteer time with charities associated with the church.... My God, they're almost normal people. :lol:
I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by ASUG8 »

Ibanez wrote:
89Hen wrote:Meh. You guys who hate religion can't make up your minds. One minute you say people aren't following their religion closely enough, the next you say they are taking it too literally. The truth is, a VAST, VAST, VAST, VAST majority of religious people don't commit heinous acts in the name of their religion. Hell, they don't even commit minor ones. They keep to themselves, celebrate with each other and go about their lives with you never knowing they attend church all the time, that they donate money to the church, that they volunteer time with charities associated with the church.... My God, they're almost normal people. :lol:
I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I'm no hater of religion - I think it has a lot of good things in it. That said, it's an ancient document that is open to interpretation, with some people (like myself) cherry picking parts that seem most important and relevant to me, while others believe we should follow it word for word.

A lot of good has been done via religion as has a lot of pain and suffering. I don't hate religion, I just choose to stay away from the things that seem dated that haven't kept up with the times. I don't think a series of scribes for the bible or koran a few thousand years ago could possibly have written a document that would apply into perpetuity. There are nuggets that stand the test of time, but rational people in our semi-enlightened age have to balance Iron Age texts and their experience with the proven science that has developed since then.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote:
Ibanez wrote: I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
I can see the positive side of religion. My mother believes in God and all that stuff. She goes to church each week and does Perpetual Adoration one night a week (she's done this since I was a kid). But she knows the Bible was written for a specific purpose and believes they are stories to teach a lesson and should be read with an open mind. She views Church more of a time to reflect and have 1 hour of peace a week (2 hrs technically). I like her view of it.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

Ibanez wrote:
89Hen wrote: I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
I can see the positive side of religion. My mother believes in God and all that stuff. She goes to church each week and does Perpetual Adoration one night a week (she's done this since I was a kid). But she knows the Bible was written for a specific purpose and believes they are stories to teach a lesson and should be read with an open mind. She views Church more of a time to reflect and have 1 hour of peace a week (2 hrs technically). I like her view of it.
:thumb: and she's in the "VAST, VAST, VAST, VAST majority of religious people" I mentioned before.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
Ibanez wrote: I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
I don't hate religion either and pretty much agree with everything Ibanez and G8 have said. So swing and a miss for you. :ohno:

I do think it's healthy to challenge religion though.

This article singled out two faiths but you do realize there are other churches/beliefs that are able to accomplish everything you mentioned without as much of the negative, right? If it's just an attack on religion, why don't you see them getting called out as much?

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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by YoUDeeMan »

89Hen wrote:
Ibanez wrote: I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
Not to nit pick (because everyone knows I never nit pick), but wouldn't that sentence be, "I wouldn't lump any of you three in there." :suspicious:

Otherwise, you're leaving one of us (Cluck, G8, or Ibenez) hanging with the West Coasters. :cry:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Grizalltheway »

89Hen wrote:
Ibanez wrote: I can't speak for Cluck or G8, but I have no disdain for religion.


I just have no need for it. :D
I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
Eat shit, papist!
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Ibanez »

Cluck U wrote:
89Hen wrote: I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
Not to nit pick (because everyone knows I never nit pick), but wouldn't that sentence be, "I wouldn't lump any of you three in there." :suspicious:

Otherwise, you're leaving one of us (Cluck, G8, or Ibenez) hanging with the West Coasters. :cry:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

Cluck U wrote:
89Hen wrote: I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
Not to nit pick (because everyone knows I never nit pick), but wouldn't that sentence be, "I wouldn't lump any of you three in there." :suspicious:

Otherwise, you're leaving one of us (Cluck, G8, or Ibenez) hanging with the West Coasters. :cry:
Sorry, I only read Sticky and G8 in the original post, but I'd still keep my sentence as is. 8-)
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: I wouldn't lump either of you two in there. Seems like it's mostly the guys in the northwest, plus DB1.
I don't hate religion either and pretty much agree with everything Ibanez and G8 have said. So swing and a miss for you. :ohno:
Meh, you're strong dislike is close enough. You've railed on religion time and time again, so... not a swing and miss.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by Pwns »

The exact same thing could be said of any writings that have influenced people…the Feminine Mystique, the Communist Manifesto, the writings of Sigmund Freud,George Orwell's essays, and on and on? People may consider the works important but almost never agree word for word with everything in these works.
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:
I don't hate religion either and pretty much agree with everything Ibanez and G8 have said. So swing and a miss for you. :ohno:
Meh, you're strong dislike is close enough. You've railed on religion time and time again, so... not a swing and miss.
Religion is a protected class with as large of a victimization complex as any other group. It's PC to not challenge religion.

I think that's absurd.

Talking about it and challenging some of the notions, especially as they apply to laws and rights or it's influenc on foreign policy and war is a healthy exercise.

But I don't even strongly dislike it. How can I? That's like saying I strongly dislike philosophy or mythology? Who needs those anyway? :lol:

So strike two. :nod:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:It's PC to not challenge religion.
Now THAT's a swing and a miss Kalm. :lol:
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Re: The Problem with Holy Books

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:It's PC to not challenge religion.
Now THAT's a swing and a miss Kalm. :lol:
Is it? Not according to half my Facebook friends, Bill Oreilly, Fox News, etc.

It used to be PC to say "Happy Holidays". I get corrected now time and again with a wink and nod reply of "Merry Christmas".
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