Ok the Bowl thing is officially out of hand

[JohnStOnge]

I went ahead and looked it up and the highest a Sun Belt team has ever finished in the Sagarin Ratings among all D-I teams is 50th. That was by Arkansas State in 2012. And FCS national champ North Dakota State finished 35th among all D-I teams that year.

BTW the next highest finish by a Sun Belt team was 53rd by Troy State in 2007. FCS national champ Appalachian State finished at 44th that year.

There was no other year during which any Sun Belt team finished higher than 60th.

If you think that the Sun Belt is significantly separated from FCS in caliber you are deluding yourself. It is essentially a league of FCS caliber programs with FCS resource levels calling themselves FBS. Yes they can go ahead and have a few more scholarships and that makes some difference. But not all that much.

[Baldy]

I went ahead and looked it up and the highest a Sun Belt team has ever finished in the Sagarin Ratings among all D-I teams is 50th. That was by Arkansas State in 2012. And FCS national champ North Dakota State finished 35th among all D-I teams that year.

BTW the next highest finish by a Sun Belt team was 53rd by Troy State in 2007. FCS national champ Appalachian State finished at 44th that year.

There was no other year during which any Sun Belt team finished higher than 60th.

If you think that the Sun Belt is significantly separated from FCS in caliber you are deluding yourself. It is essentially a league of FCS caliber programs with FCS resource levels calling themselves FBS. Yes they can go ahead and have a few more scholarships and that makes some difference. But not all that much.

I love the comparison between a conference Champion and a national champion.

Your obsession is dually noted though.

[UNI88]

The Bowl thing is out of hand but it has nothing to do with Sunbelt teams, it's because teams with losing records shouldn't be rewarded with a trip to a bowl.

[CAA Flagship]

The Bowl thing is out of hand but it has nothing to do with Sunbelt teams, it's because teams with losing records shouldn't be rewarded with a trip to a bowl.

Correct, but do teams with 6-6 records deserve to go? How about 7-5 teams?

Let's face it, going to "a bowl game" isn't what it used to be. But if someone wants to put up money to host two teams at the end of a season, why would college football deny them? Thankfully, with the expansion of the playoffs, the bowls are losing their luster and they are becoming exclusively "just another game on the schedule". Might as well let everyone play if given the offer.

[CID1990]

The Bowl thing is out of hand but it has nothing to do with Sunbelt teams, it's because teams with losing records shouldn't be rewarded with a trip to a bowl.

Correct, but do teams with 6-6 records deserve to go? How about 7-5 teams?

Let's face it, going to "a bowl game" isn't what it used to be. But if someone wants to put up money to host two teams at the end of a season, why would college football deny them? Thankfully, with the expansion of the playoffs, the bowls are losing their luster and they are becoming exclusively "just another game on the schedule". Might as well let everyone play if given the offer.

I think it is the case for us older dudes that bowls are seen as postseason play for the best teams.

The reality for the last 15 or so years is that bowls are more of an invitational extra game, played between teams that may have met one or more criteria, like being 3rd place in their conference or something.

Playoffs are where it is at and I'm glad FBS is finally getting on board- but if they don't want the playoffs to essentially be between 4 conferences, they really should expand to at least 16.

[kalm]

Correct, but do teams with 6-6 records deserve to go? How about 7-5 teams?

Let's face it, going to "a bowl game" isn't what it used to be. But if someone wants to put up money to host two teams at the end of a season, why would college football deny them? Thankfully, with the expansion of the playoffs, the bowls are losing their luster and they are becoming exclusively "just another game on the schedule". Might as well let everyone play if given the offer.

I think it is the case for us older dudes that bowls are seen as postseason play for the best teams.

The reality for the last 15 or so years is that bowls are more of an invitational extra game, played between teams that may have met one or more criteria, like being 3rd place in their conference or something.

Playoffs are where it is at and I'm glad FBS is finally getting on board- but if they don't want the playoffs to essentially be between 4 conferences, they really should expand to at least 16.

[Baldy]

Correct, but do teams with 6-6 records deserve to go? How about 7-5 teams?

Let's face it, going to "a bowl game" isn't what it used to be. But if someone wants to put up money to host two teams at the end of a season, why would college football deny them? Thankfully, with the expansion of the playoffs, the bowls are losing their luster and they are becoming exclusively "just another game on the schedule". Might as well let everyone play if given the offer.

I think it is the case for us older dudes that bowls are seen as postseason play for the best teams.

The reality for the last 15 or so years is that bowls are more of an invitational extra game, played between teams that may have met one or more criteria, like being 3rd place in their conference or something.

Playoffs are where it is at and I'm glad FBS is finally getting on board- but if they don't want the playoffs to essentially be between 4 conferences, they really should expand to at least 16.

I think it will get there eventually, but that means the schedule will most probably get cut back to 11 games. The perennial non-contenders aren't going to give up that extra revenue generating game very easily.

[GannonFan]

I think it is the case for us older dudes that bowls are seen as postseason play for the best teams.

The reality for the last 15 or so years is that bowls are more of an invitational extra game, played between teams that may have met one or more criteria, like being 3rd place in their conference or something.

Playoffs are where it is at and I'm glad FBS is finally getting on board- but if they don't want the playoffs to essentially be between 4 conferences, they really should expand to at least 16.

I think it will get there eventually, but that means the schedule will most probably get cut back to 11 games. The perennial non-contenders aren't going to give up that extra revenue generating game very easily.

I don't ever see it getting to 16 teams. 8 teams, sure, because then the champ from every P5 conference can be in the playoffs. After that, they're just giving money away to non P5 conferences. They don't want what happened to March Madness happen here, they want it to be mainly a P5 based system, and they'll let in the occasional really good team from outside of that.

[Pwns]

Question for you, JSO: Would you advocate FCS leagues like the PFL, NEC, MEAC, and SWAC moving down to DII?

As far as Sagarin goes, we are rated lower than two teams we beat by 4 touchdowns. Going to take that one with a grain of salt. At the end of the year minus that turd that is the Georgia State game I have no doubt we were a top 50 team.

[Jjoey52]

Myself, I would like to see all non scholarship FCS schools placed in a separate division. Why are they in FCS anyway?

[CID1990]

I think it will get there eventually, but that means the schedule will most probably get cut back to 11 games. The perennial non-contenders aren't going to give up that extra revenue generating game very easily.

I don't ever see it getting to 16 teams. 8 teams, sure, because then the champ from every P5 conference can be in the playoffs. After that, they're just giving money away to non P5 conferences. They don't want what happened to March Madness happen here, they want it to be mainly a P5 based system, and they'll let in the occasional really good team from outside of that.

I think the FBS will succumb to the same pressures the FCS did. It might kill the NCAA because the lower conferences could threaten an antitrust suit, and if it got wheels the P5 would just leave the NCAA and start their own football league. Then, as a new entity they wouldn't have the same historical weight, and they'd have to pay their players. Then schools like Wake Forest and Vandy would leave their conferences and drop down to a new middle league between FBS and FCS. Several FCS teams would move up to this middle league. Then, cats and dogs will start holding hands, etc

[Skjellyfetti]

Well, the reason FBS has a playoff now was because of the threat of anti-trust lawsuits - spearheaded by Utah's Attorney General.

The current playoff and the "Access Bowl" is a temporary bandaid. Playoff expansion to include the highest ranked G5 team is inevitable, imo.

[JohnStOnge]

I love the comparison between a conference Champion and a national champion.

The point is that during the best of years for the Sun Belt Champion the Sun Belt Champion has been within the range of FCS in terms of caliber.

[JohnStOnge]

At the end of the year minus that turd that is the Georgia State game I have no doubt we were a top 50 team.

Georgia Southern was not a top 50 FBS team. That's ridiculous. And you can't "minus" losing to Georgia State. That's part of the picture.

And it's sad that we are even talking about acting like it's some kind of accomplishment to be the top 50 of the level of competition one is in.

[Mvemjsunpx]

Myself, I would like to see all non scholarship FCS schools placed in a separate division. Why are they in FCS anyway?

Because they are Division I schools and a rule was passed 20+ years ago that disallows Division I schools from playing football at a non-DI level.

[Baldy]

I love the comparison between a conference Champion and a national champion.

The point is that during the best of years for the Sun Belt Champion the Sun Belt Champion has been within the range of FCS in terms of caliber.

OK, and Georgia Southern, as the 3rd place Sun Belt team, is within the range of about 20 Power 5 schools in terms of caliber. There is only one FCS team ranked higher in Sagarin than Georgia Southern...one. A 20 to 1 ratio is not a good foundation for you to base your ridiculous argument.

[JohnStOnge]

OK, and Georgia Southern, as the 3rd place Sun Belt team, is within the range of about 20 Power 5 schools in terms of caliber. There is only one FCS team ranked higher in Sagarin than Georgia Southern...one. A 20 to 1 ratio is not a good foundation for you to base your ridiculous argument.

What on Earth are you talking about? There is a FCS conference that is rated stronger than the Sun Belt. Thus the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS conferences. There's a team from that FCS conference that's rated as stronger than any team in the Sun Belt. Thus every team in the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS teams.

Every team in the Power 5 is not ranked within the range of the Sun Belt. In fact, by my quick count, there are 46 Power 5 teams rated higher than the highest rated team in the Sun Belt. All of the Power 5 conferences are rated WELL above the Sun Belt.

I honestly don't get what you think you're saying.

[Skjellyfetti]

OK, and Georgia Southern, as the 3rd place Sun Belt team, is within the range of about 20 Power 5 schools in terms of caliber. There is only one FCS team ranked higher in Sagarin than Georgia Southern...one. A 20 to 1 ratio is not a good foundation for you to base your ridiculous argument.

What on Earth are you talking about? There is a FCS conference that is rated stronger than the Sun Belt. Thus the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS conferences. There's a team from that FCS conference that's rated as stronger than any team in the Sun Belt. Thus every team in the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS teams.

Every team in the Power 5 is not ranked within the range of the Sun Belt. In fact, by my quick count, there are 46 Power 5 teams rated higher than the highest rated team in the Sun Belt. All of the Power 5 conferences are rated WELL above the Sun Belt.

I honestly don't get what you think you're saying.

The fact that you're looking through different lenses at both.

If ONE FCS team is ranked ahead of all the Sun Belt teams - you say that the Sun Belt is "within the range" of FCS teams.

If Sun Belt teams are ranked ahead of P5 teams* - you say that the Sun Belt isn't "within the range" of the P5.



For someone with the logical bent of an autistic - you seem to be missing this huge fallacy.

[Baldy]

What on Earth are you talking about? There is a FCS conference that is rated stronger than the Sun Belt. Thus the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS conferences. There's a team from that FCS conference that's rated as stronger than any team in the Sun Belt. Thus every team in the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS teams.

Every team in the Power 5 is not ranked within the range of the Sun Belt. In fact, by my quick count, there are 46 Power 5 teams rated higher than the highest rated team in the Sun Belt. All of the Power 5 conferences are rated WELL above the Sun Belt.

I honestly don't get what you think you're saying.

The fact that you're looking through different lenses at both.

If ONE FCS team is ranked ahead of all the Sun Belt teams - you say that the Sun Belt is "within the range" of FCS teams.

If Sun Belt teams are ranked ahead of P5 teams* - you say that the Sun Belt isn't "within the range" of the P5.



For someone with the logical bent of an autistic - you seem to be missing this huge fallacy.

Mr. Statistic needs to learn what an outlier is, and means.

[Baldy]

OK, and Georgia Southern, as the 3rd place Sun Belt team, is within the range of about 20 Power 5 schools in terms of caliber. There is only one FCS team ranked higher in Sagarin than Georgia Southern...one. A 20 to 1 ratio is not a good foundation for you to base your ridiculous argument.

What on Earth are you talking about? There is a FCS conference that is rated stronger than the Sun Belt. Thus the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS conferences. There's a team from that FCS conference that's rated as stronger than any team in the Sun Belt. Thus every team in the Sun Belt is within the range of FCS teams.

Every team in the Power 5 is not ranked within the range of the Sun Belt. In fact, by my quick count, there are 46 Power 5 teams rated higher than the highest rated team in the Sun Belt. All of the Power 5 conferences are rated WELL above the Sun Belt.

I honestly don't get what you think you're saying.

A(n) FCS conference...one (1) conference (out of 13). In other words, an outlier...an anomaly. Something so far out of the norm it is almost always excluded from the data set.

Please, John, quit being so dumb.

When you exclude the MVFC outlier, as bad as it is, the Slum Belch is still eight (8) Sagarin points higher than the next closest FCS conference. To show you how large of a gulf that is, add those eight (8) points to the Sun Belts score. That would put the Belch just under the AAC and ahead of the MWC.

You're hinging your entire argument on a statistical anomaly. Do yourself a favor for a change and shut up.

[UNI88]

Correct, but do teams with 6-6 records deserve to go? How about 7-5 teams?

Let's face it, going to "a bowl game" isn't what it used to be. But if someone wants to put up money to host two teams at the end of a season, why would college football deny them? Thankfully, with the expansion of the playoffs, the bowls are losing their luster and they are becoming exclusively "just another game on the schedule". Might as well let everyone play if given the offer.

I think it is the case for us older dudes that bowls are seen as postseason play for the best teams.

The reality for the last 15 or so years is that bowls are more of an invitational extra game, played between teams that may have met one or more criteria, like being 3rd place in their conference or something.

Playoffs are where it is at and I'm glad FBS is finally getting on board- but if they don't want the playoffs to essentially be between 4 conferences, they really should expand to at least 16.

True enough Flaggy. Ideally for this old curmudgeon, only teams that are above .500 overall and in conference should be invited to a bowl game.

Bowl games have unfortunately become an extra invitational game and I don't think that's going to change soon. Too much money floating around for a reduction in bowl games.

[Skjellyfetti]

Bowl games have unfortunately become an extra invitational game and I don't think that's going to change soon. Too much money floating around for a reduction in bowl games.

When exactly did that become the case?

I'd argue that bowl games have ALWAYS been "an extra invitational game." The recent change is that old curmudgeons feel like they are entitled to be entertained on their couch by every single bowl game.

Before this year's Camelia Bowl... the last bowl game Appalachian State went to was the 1955 Burley Bowl against ETSU. Appalachian State was 6-5. If the Burley Bowl was televised nationally... it probably would have annoyed people. Since it wasn't televised at all... only the fans of Appalachian State and ETSU noticed and cared. There was no bitching or complaining about these two teams playing a football game.

The standards for a bowl invitation haven't changed all that much. A mediocre team in the 1950s could qualify for a crappy bowl and the same is true today! The difference is that people feel the only games that should be played are the ones that entertain them personally.

Now, the bowl tradition is a problem that has plagued college football. I have no problem scrapping the whole thing. Again, the problem would be the old curmudgeons clinging to tradition.

Basically, the problem in all of this is old curmudgeons.

[BDKJMU]

Bowl games have unfortunately become an extra invitational game and I don't think that's going to change soon. Too much money floating around for a reduction in bowl games.

When exactly did that become the case?

I'd argue that bowl games have ALWAYS been "an extra invitational game." The recent change is that old curmudgeons feel like they are entitled to be entertained on their couch by every single bowl game.

Before this year's Camelia Bowl... the last bowl game Appalachian State went to was the 1955 Burley Bowl against ETSU. Appalachian State was 6-5. If the Burley Bowl was televised nationally... it probably would have annoyed people. Since it wasn't televised at all... only the fans of Appalachian State and ETSU noticed and cared. There was no bitching or complaining about these two teams playing a football game.

The standards for a bowl invitation haven't changed all that much. A mediocre team in the 1950s could qualify for a crappy bowl and the same is true today! The difference is that people feel the only games that should be played are the ones that entertain them personally.

Now, the bowl tradition is a problem that has plagued college football. I have no problem scrapping the whole thing. Again, the problem would be the old curmudgeons clinging to tradition.

Basically, the problem in all of this is old curmudgeons.

Yeah they have compared to the 80 and 90s. In the 80s and 90s few 6 win teams were going to bowl games. Certainly teams with losing records weren't. I remember around 1990, when many of the "curmudgeons" on here were in HS, college, or 20s, there was something like 105 teams and 17 bowl games. Well 34 out of 105= about 1/3. So it usually meant you had to have a decent team (8-3) or better. I bet a majority of 7-4 didn't go.

Now you have 128 teams and 40 bowl games. So now you have about 62-63% of your teams going. So almost every 6-6 goes, and even some 5-7. You can finish in the bottom half of your conference and still go to a bowl. There are P5 that went 3-5 or even 2-6 in conference and went to a bowl..That never happened back in the 80s-90s..

[AshevilleApp]

As long as TV pays to cover it, bowls will continue. I'd expect to see more in the next few years. Deal with it. You don't have to watch.

[UNI88]

When exactly did that become the case?

I'd argue that bowl games have ALWAYS been "an extra invitational game." The recent change is that old curmudgeons feel like they are entitled to be entertained on their couch by every single bowl game.

Before this year's Camelia Bowl... the last bowl game Appalachian State went to was the 1955 Burley Bowl against ETSU. Appalachian State was 6-5. If the Burley Bowl was televised nationally... it probably would have annoyed people. Since it wasn't televised at all... only the fans of Appalachian State and ETSU noticed and cared. There was no bitching or complaining about these two teams playing a football game.

The standards for a bowl invitation haven't changed all that much. A mediocre team in the 1950s could qualify for a crappy bowl and the same is true today! The difference is that people feel the only games that should be played are the ones that entertain them personally.

Now, the bowl tradition is a problem that has plagued college football. I have no problem scrapping the whole thing. Again, the problem would be the old curmudgeons clinging to tradition.

Basically, the problem in all of this is old curmudgeons.

Yeah they have compared to the 80 and 90s. In the 80s and 90s few 6 win teams were going to bowl games. Certainly teams with losing records weren't. I remember around 1990, when many of the "curmudgeons" on here were in HS, college, or 20s, there was something like 105 teams and 17 bowl games. Well 34 out of 105= about 1/3. So it usually meant you had to have a decent team (8-3) or better. I bet a majority of 7-4 didn't go.

Now you have 128 teams and 40 bowl games. So now you have about 62-63% of your teams going. So almost every 6-6 goes, and even some 5-7. You can finish in the bottom half of your conference and still go to a bowl. There are P5 that went 3-5 or even 2-6 in conference and went to a bowl..That never happened back in the 80s-90s..

First BDK is correct. It might be cyclical but we're in a watered down phase of bowl eligibility.

Second, KYJizmJelly couldn't be further from the truth. JSO's attacks on the Sunbelt must have him so butt hurt and defensive that he's lashing out at anyone. I don't think every bowl game has to entertain me. I have no problem with the Sunbelt sending multiple teams to bowl games. I might be an old curmudgeon but I love college football and am entertained by most games not just the high profile ones. I do think that bowl games should be a reward for a successful season and don't like that they've been watered them down but I can live with it. Of course, I could also live with an 8 or 16 team tournament and no bowl games at all. The P5 will have their way and I'll watch the games that interest me when I have the time. I have no problem with Appy or GaSo moving up and I actually hope they do well so KY needs to put a little ointment on his sphincter and lighten up.