Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

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Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by kalm »

Couple of interesting reads here and kudos to Russel Okung for giving a shit and his efforts.

Okung is rebutting Silicon Valley CEO Paul Graham's piece on income inequality. I think he makes some great points regarding the ability to work hard and cultural optimism.

But I don't really see the problem with what Graham says either. Is there some veiled objectivism here that I'm missing?

Thoughts?

Just a few days ago, a kick that landed wide left in the final moments of a hard-fought game against an admirable opponent sent us, the Seahawks, into the next round of the playoffs. Two teams equal in athletic ability and access, one winner.

Now, imagine if the National Football League only gave the Seahawks access to helmets and pads, for instance, and not the Vikings. Two teams equal in athletic ability no longer equal in access. I can’t help but draw parallels as I sit and reflect on this fleeting game, and how it relates to life off the field.

Last week, I stumbled upon Y Combinator co-founder Paul Graham’s essay on economic inequality, which he argues is a good thing.

But for a man who has invested so much in others, Graham, your words leave me baffled: What happened to your first love? What happened to building up those people? I believe wealth has the potential to breed elitism. And I believe because of Graham’s success, he may have lost his way.

Some think working hard solves the problems of poverty and institutional oppression and the lack of social mobility. Some think that by sheer determination, one can overcome such issues.

But economic inequality isn’t the symptom; it’s the virus that attacks. You, Graham, like the rest of America, have been deceived. You are a victim of the American Dream, the belief that anyone who works hard can move up economically regardless of his or her social circumstances. American cultural optimism is one of the greatest lies ever told.
http://www.geekwire.com/2016/seahawks-l ... -startups/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Economic inequality is sufficiently far from identical with the various problems that have it as a symptom that we'll probably only hit whichever of the two we aim at. If we aim at economic inequality, we won't fix these problems. So I say let's aim at the problems.

For example, let's attack poverty, and if necessary damage wealth in the process. That's much more likely to work than attacking wealth in the hope that you will thereby fix poverty. [9] And if there are people getting rich by tricking consumers or lobbying the government for anti-competitive regulations or tax loopholes, then let's stop them. Not because it's causing economic inequality, but because it's stealing. [10]

If all you have is statistics, it seems like that's what you need to fix. But behind a broad statistical measure like economic inequality there are some things that are good and some that are bad, some that are historical trends with immense momentum and others that are random accidents. If we want to fix the world behind the statistics, we have to understand it, and focus our efforts where they'll do the most good.
http://www.paulgraham.com/ineq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by UNI88 »

On first read, it appears to me that they're talking about two different things that aren't really in conflict. I agree with both of them.

Too many liberals push for equal outcomes, which is incredibly short-sided and what Graham is arguing against. Our system of rewarding "doers" pushes us forward technologically and makes life better for all. Worried about climate change, dependency on foreign oil, etc., innovation is what we need to solve those problems (wind and solar isn't going to cut it). The poor in America in many ways are better off today than the rich were a 100+ years ago. Equal outcomes stifle ambition and innovation and leads to stagnation.

Okung IMO isn't arguing for equal outcomes, he's arguing for equal (or at least more equal) opportunities. The African American kid on the south side of Chicago is growing up surrounded by gangs and going to a poorly performing school and feels he/she has no chance to get out. It's a similar situation for the white kid growing up in a trailer park in Oklahoma. We need to find ways to truly give people the opportunity to improve their lives and the hope that goes with that. I support grass root efforts to do so but I don't support a one-size fits all federal government approach. That's just going to increase the size of the bureaucracy with high costs and limited results.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

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^
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by AZGrizFan »

How much of his wealth has Okung shared?
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote:On first read, it appears to me that they're talking about two different things that aren't really in conflict. I agree with both of them.

Too many liberals push for equal outcomes, which is incredibly short-sided and what Graham is arguing against. Our system of rewarding "doers" pushes us forward technologically and makes life better for all. Worried about climate change, dependency on foreign oil, etc., innovation is what we need to solve those problems (wind and solar isn't going to cut it). The poor in America in many ways are better off today than the rich were a 100+ years ago. Equal outcomes stifle ambition and innovation and leads to stagnation.

Okung IMO isn't arguing for equal outcomes, he's arguing for equal (or at least more equal) opportunities. The African American kid on the south side of Chicago is growing up surrounded by gangs and going to a poorly performing school and feels he/she has no chance to get out. It's a similar situation for the white kid growing up in a trailer park in Oklahoma. We need to find ways to truly give people the opportunity to improve their lives and the hope that goes with that. I support grass root efforts to do so but I don't support a one-size fits all federal government approach. That's just going to increase the size of the bureaucracy with high costs and limited results.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:How much of his wealth has Okung shared?
/thread. :)
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:On first read, it appears to me that they're talking about two different things that aren't really in conflict. I agree with both of them.

Too many liberals push for equal outcomes, which is incredibly short-sided and what Graham is arguing against. Our system of rewarding "doers" pushes us forward technologically and makes life better for all. Worried about climate change, dependency on foreign oil, etc., innovation is what we need to solve those problems (wind and solar isn't going to cut it). The poor in America in many ways are better off today than the rich were a 100+ years ago. Equal outcomes stifle ambition and innovation and leads to stagnation.

Okung IMO isn't arguing for equal outcomes, he's arguing for equal (or at least more equal) opportunities. The African American kid on the south side of Chicago is growing up surrounded by gangs and going to a poorly performing school and feels he/she has no chance to get out. It's a similar situation for the white kid growing up in a trailer park in Oklahoma. We need to find ways to truly give people the opportunity to improve their lives and the hope that goes with that. I support grass root efforts to do so but I don't support a one-size fits all federal government approach. That's just going to increase the size of the bureaucracy with high costs and limited results.
Quality as usual. :nod:
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by JohnStOnge »

I'll spin off this:
Nicholas Fitz writes that “By overemphasizing individual mobility, we ignore important social determinants of success like family inheritance, social connections, and structural discrimination.”
What Okung himself ignores is that there is a factor in success that may be more important than any of those "social determinants." It's called "innate ability." Okung is himself where he is primarily because of innate ability.

I'll borrow from the authors of The Bell Curve. What they pointed out is that if you were to be able to completely eliminate all environmental differences so that environment was no longer a factor in success the only things you'd have left would be chance and innate ability. And you'd still have variation in success.

If Okung thinks that eliminating equality of access as he perceives it would eliminate inequality he's kidding himself.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by YoUDeeMan »

AZGrizFan wrote:How much of his wealth has Okung shared?
THIS.

Why doesn't the media ask him this question? :suspicious:
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by CID1990 »

Didn't Chitz just say in another thread that anything that comes out of the mouths of anyone on the Seahawks other than the QB is a bunch of crap?
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by YoUDeeMan »

CID1990 wrote:Didn't Chitz just say in another thread that anything that comes out of the mouths of anyone on the Seahawks other than the QB is a bunch of crap?
Chiz has been a little off kilter lately. Maybe it is related to all the mercury in his sushi.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by 89Hen »

Cluck U wrote:Maybe it is related to all the mercury in his sushi.
Maybe he's been building pinewood racers.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by 89Hen »

You, Graham, like the rest of America, have been deceived. You are a victim of the American Dream, the belief that anyone who works hard can move up economically regardless of his or her social circumstances. American cultural optimism is one of the greatest lies ever told.
This line has me a little perplexed. "Moving up economically" is all relative, no? I don't think there are many people who would argue that anyone and everyone can become a millionaire if they work hard enough. But IMO the "American Dream" is to take what is given to you and improve your situation. It's not always an easy task... for anyone, and that's where the hard work comes in.

Having college aged kids, I can tell you that there are a LOT of opportunities for kids of people who have lesser means to go to schools that I could never afford to send my kids. My kids will be just fine as they have plenty of opportunities elsewhere, so I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
You, Graham, like the rest of America, have been deceived. You are a victim of the American Dream, the belief that anyone who works hard can move up economically regardless of his or her social circumstances. American cultural optimism is one of the greatest lies ever told.
This line has me a little perplexed. "Moving up economically" is all relative, no? I don't think there are many people who would argue that anyone and everyone can become a millionaire if they work hard enough. But IMO the "American Dream" is to take what is given to you and improve your situation. It's not always an easy task... for anyone, and that's where the hard work comes in.

Having college aged kids, I can tell you that there are a LOT of opportunities for kids of people who have lesser means to go to schools that I could never afford to send my kids. My kids will be just fine as they have plenty of opportunities elsewhere, so I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
Good post.

To defend Okung's comment I think there is a certain lack of gratitude among some of those who have made it. Given a middle class or better jumpstart has significant advantages and it ain't just a matter of 'work harder kid and you'll get yours' (as I kick the ladder away).

Luck (some of it born of privilege) and a middle class or better safety net play a role too.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: This line has me a little perplexed. "Moving up economically" is all relative, no? I don't think there are many people who would argue that anyone and everyone can become a millionaire if they work hard enough. But IMO the "American Dream" is to take what is given to you and improve your situation. It's not always an easy task... for anyone, and that's where the hard work comes in.

Having college aged kids, I can tell you that there are a LOT of opportunities for kids of people who have lesser means to go to schools that I could never afford to send my kids. My kids will be just fine as they have plenty of opportunities elsewhere, so I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
Good post.

To defend Okung's comment I think there is a certain lack of gratitude among some of those who have made it. Given a middle class or better jumpstart has significant advantages and it ain't just a matter of 'work harder kid and you'll get yours' (as I kick the ladder away).

Luck (some of it born of privilege) and a middle class or better safety net play a role too.
You are correct, but we live in a very entitled world. Most people are ungrateful, including me. I had a pretty easy childhood. We didn't live in a big house (at one point six of us with one bathroom), but it was always clean and warm with food on the table and lots of support and love. My father didn't finish high school (WWII got in the way) but he put four kids through college and all of us are fairly successful. That's more a reflection on him, than me or my siblings. Because of that boost I had, college was never in doubt for my kids. Heck, they've never spent a day in public school. But I can't say I've given them any more of a boost to their start than my father did for me. As you move up economically, it's actually harder in many ways to improve your kids situation compared to your own.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote: I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
That's where conservatives and liberals differ, Hen. Conservatives don't begrudge others their success. Liberals are envious of it and believed they are somehow entitled to share in it. :coffee:
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by YoUDeeMan »

AZGrizFan wrote:
89Hen wrote: I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
That's where conservatives and liberals differ, Hen. Conservatives don't begrudge others their success. Liberals are envious of it and believed they are somehow entitled to share in it. :coffee:
TROOF! :nod:
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by ASUG8 »

Some folks are gifted with size, speed, and strength, some are given exceptional brainpower, some are simply born into the silver spoon club. Some of the rest of us work hard to do better to make the best of what we were born with. If I had "access" to a helmet and shoulder pads it still wouldn't make me a marquee athlete, just as having access to an Ivy league school wouldn't necessarily improve my ability to become wealthy. I think most people fall into a few different camps:

* Exceptional abilities leading to wealth
* Exceptional abilities that choose a less lucrative path
* Those without great ability but have a strong work ethic
* Those with ability but no motivation, support, or work ethic

Everybody has abilities, it's just whether you choose to capitalize on them or allow the people around you pressure you into not maximizing them. If you're lazy with ability, you get no sympathy from me. If you're born into a bad home situation (i.e. druggie parents, abject poverty), then I think we as a country have an obligation to recognize that person's talent and help them break the cycle when possible. :twocents:
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by YoUDeeMan »

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: This line has me a little perplexed. "Moving up economically" is all relative, no? I don't think there are many people who would argue that anyone and everyone can become a millionaire if they work hard enough. But IMO the "American Dream" is to take what is given to you and improve your situation. It's not always an easy task... for anyone, and that's where the hard work comes in.

Having college aged kids, I can tell you that there are a LOT of opportunities for kids of people who have lesser means to go to schools that I could never afford to send my kids. My kids will be just fine as they have plenty of opportunities elsewhere, so I don't begrudge others and their opportunities.
Good post.

To defend Okung's comment I think there is a certain lack of gratitude among some of those who have made it. Given a middle class or better jumpstart has significant advantages and it ain't just a matter of 'work harder kid and you'll get yours' (as I kick the ladder away).

Luck (some of it born of privilege) and a middle class or better safety net play a role too.
C'mon kalm...EVERYONE is selfish to some extent, so why draw a line at the middle or upper class? You'll never find an equal starting point for people.

Go down to the hood and you will find selfishness everywhere. Let a new kid on the court? Wait your turn. Want to deal drugs on a particular street corner? Oh sure, just come on in a take my territory. Got your kid into a charter school? Yeah, we ain't got time for you regular public school kids...my kid has a leg up.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen kids, plenty of them, dropped off at my school as borders, and their parents were never around. They lived out of state (or country) and were too busy with their lives to be bothered to catch their kid's games or to come to check in on their kids. All the money in the world and some of those kids ended up dead early in life.

The main key to a successful life is to not accept the limits anyone puts on you...including yourself. Find a mentor...parent, teacher, preacher, whatever... and get going. But, too many people choose the easiest path.

I've been a mentor to many. All it takes is for someone to try hard and be honest and I'll give you a hand.

Want to take the easy path and cheat? Too bad...you won't get my sympathy or help.
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Re: Seahawks Okung on Wealth Inequality

Post by 89Hen »

ASUG8 wrote:If you're born into a bad home situation (i.e. druggie parents, abject poverty), then I think we as a country have an obligation to recognize that person's talent and help them break the cycle when possible. :twocents:
Yup. That's why I'm always a little hesitant to post on the POS Alert threads (usually started by one of our more liberal friends). Walk a mile.
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