Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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JoltinJoe
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
Does that mean you guys decided to call it a draw? ;)
No, he said Hitler often quoted Nietzche and he was wrong. He must apologize to me and my employer for wasting our time and for his personal attacks. Or retract. :|

But he won't because he feels the need to be always right and will go to ridiculous lengths to make it appear as such. :geek: :lol:
Well, what I said was that the Third Reich frequently quoted Nietzsche, and I provided multiple examples.

But let's stay on topic here. What did you think of the decision we're discussing here. I'm sure by now you've read it as carefully as you have read Nietzsche.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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travelinman67 wrote: CHRISTIANS have lost their freedom of speech and freedom to practice their religion.
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person. In fact, the only time I am aware of any "gay" demonstration that crossed a line, and which offended me, was when a group of gays disrupted a Mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral by receiving Communion and then tossing the wafers on the ground. That group later said that it regretted its actions and said it would never disrupt a religious service again.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by travelinman67 »

JoltinJoe wrote:
travelinman67 wrote: CHRISTIANS have lost their freedom of speech and freedom to practice their religion.
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
Thanks to GLSEN, there's been several cases in CA of Bible Clubs being banned at High Schools, and one case of a college student being threatened with expulsion for praying at school as it was found to be "threatening" to staff.
Another case where a father objected to James Howes' "The Misfits" being read to grade school students, he eventually removed his child from the school, then spent two years in court to defend his decision. After the court case was over, the district opted to "stop reading" The Misfits to grades lower than H.S.

...want me to go on...
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

JoltinJoe wrote:
travelinman67 wrote: CHRISTIANS have lost their freedom of speech and freedom to practice their religion.
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
It happened to one of my buddies after an EWU game in Spokane about 10 yrs. ago. When he got back to the house we were staying at and told me the story I laughed so hard I couldn't stand it. One of the funniest stories he's ever told to this day. :lol:
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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travelinman67 wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
Thanks to GLSEN, there's been several cases in CA of Bible Clubs being banned at High Schools, and one case of a college student being threatened with expulsion for praying at school as it was found to be "threatening" to staff.
Another case where a father objected to James Howes' "The Misfits" being read to grade school students, he eventually removed his child from the school, then spent two years in court to defend his decision. After the court case was over, the district opted to "stop reading" The Misfits to grades lower than H.S.

...want me to go on...
We live in a pluralistic society and when we cannot agree we take our disputes to court. It's the nature of our system that there are winners and losers.

Kids can still join Bible Clubs or read "The Misfits." I can't accept that we have been "oppressed" if our side has a fair hearing and doesn't win.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by dbackjon »

travelinman67 wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
What fucking ever.

WHAT FUCKING RIGHTS HAVE STRAIGHTS LOST?
CHRISTIANS have lost their freedom of speech and freedom to practice their religion.
You are pathetic if you really believe that bullshit.

Show me ONE instance where someone has been denied the ability to practice their religion.

Show me ONE instance where someone's free speech has been denied.

You can't.

And with free speech, there comes responsibility for that speech. Or do you not believe in responsibility?

If a restaurant owner said that they do not like blacks, and that blacks should not have equal rights, and blacks boycotted the restaurant, would you say the restaurant owner was being persecuted?
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by dbackjon »

travelinman67 wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
Thanks to GLSEN, there's been several cases in CA of Bible Clubs being banned at High Schools, and one case of a college student being threatened with expulsion for praying at school as it was found to be "threatening" to staff.
Another case where a father objected to James Howes' "The Misfits" being read to grade school students, he eventually removed his child from the school, then spent two years in court to defend his decision. After the court case was over, the district opted to "stop reading" The Misfits to grades lower than H.S.

...want me to go on...
A - PUBLIC SCHOOL. They can still have their bible class outside of school.

Sounds more like some students, probably pushed by their parents, were trying to SHOVE THEIR RELIGION down the throat of others.

And how many thousands of GLBT themed books have been removed from schools because of religious HATE GROUPS. Tens of thousands.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by wkuhillhound »

Amen. pastor Dback! :P

If you are a SWM (straight white male) in this country, the deck is stacked in your favor in virtually every way. No wonder why most SWMs feel the way they do about someone that is different than them. They can't help it. It's in their nature. If I get flack for this post, oh well.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
CHRISTIANS have lost their freedom of speech and freedom to practice their religion.
Show me ONE instance where someone has been denied the ability to practice their religion.

Show me ONE instance where someone's free speech has been denied.

You can't.
I can.
· Eleven Christians in Philadelphia were arrested in 2004 and charged with “ethnic
intimidation” in violation of Pennsylvania’s hate-crime law for carrying signs and
singing hymns at a “gay pride” rally. After spending the night in jail, and enduring an
arduous legal process, charges against the Philadelphia Eleven were eventually
dropped.

· Former homosexual David Ott was arrested and charged with a hate crime for giving
his testimony to a homosexual in Madison, Wisconsin. He paid seven thousand
dollars in legal fees and was ordered to attend re-education classes taught by a lesbian
at the University ofWisconsin.

· In May of this year, two 16-year-old girls were arrested and charged with a felony
hate crime for passing out flyers at their school showing two boys kissing and
including “anti-homosexual” comments. In order to avoid a trial and a possible felony
conviction, both pleaded guilty to lesser charges.
Stockholm, Sweden, Jul. 6, 2004 (LifesiteNews.com/CWN) -

The Rev. Ake Green, the pastor of a Swedish Pentecostal church in Kalmar, Sweden, has been sentenced to one month in prison for inciting hatred against homosexuals. Green was prosecuted in January for "hate speech against homosexuals" for a sermon he preached last summer citing Biblical references to homosexuality.

Sweden has a "hate crimes" law that forbids criticism of homosexuality. According to the church newspaper Kyrkans Tidning , the prosecutor in the case, Kjell Yngvesson, justifies the arrest of Green: "One may have whatever religion one wishes, but this is an attack on all fronts against homosexuals. Collecting Bible citations on this topic as he (Green) does makes this hate speech."
A police force was caught up in a freedom of speech row after its officers arrested an anti-gay campaigner for handing out leaflets at a homosexual rally.
South Wales police admitted evangelical Christian Stephen Green was then charged purely because his pamphlets contained anti-gay quotations from the Bible.
Mr Green faces a court appearance today charged with using 'threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour' after his attempt to distribute the leaflets at the weekend 'Mardi Gras' event in Cardiff.
A spokesman for the police said the campaigner had not behaved in a violent or aggressive manner, but that officers arrested him because 'the leaflet contained Biblical quotes about homosexuality'.
The arrest of Mr Green


And if HB 1913 passes...
The US Senate Judiciary committee is now considering the so-called Hate Crimes Prevention Act passed by the House April 29, under the sponsorship of Rep John Conyers (D-MI) and 120 other Representatives. Dubbed the ”Thought Crimes Prevention Act” by some House Republicans, HB1913 includes pedophilia as a protected sexual orientation.

Prior to approval by the whole House, a party-line 10-13 vote of Conyers’ House Judiciary Committee April 23 rejected a proposal by Republican Rep Steve King (R-IA) “to define the term `sexual orientation’ as used in the bill to explicitly exclude pedophilia.” Wisconsin Democrat Tammy Baldwin, an open lesbian, called the amendment, “unnecessary and inflammatory.”

When judges are required to interpret any Act resulting from passage of HB1913, they will refer to this vote and see that the intent of the lawmakers was to protect pedophiles. This could lead to federal felony prosecutions against anyone who acts to expel a pedophile from his neighborhood. Federal felony convictions require a minimum one year incarceration in a federal penitentiary.

Catholic League President Bill Donohue explained:

“The debate is over: for liberals, child molesters should be given the same rights as homosexuals. Moreover, they should be given more rights than pregnant women and veterans; the latter two categories were explicitly denied coverage under the hate crimes bill. Even worse, an amendment that would bar prosecution based in whole or in part on religious beliefs quoted from the Bible, the Tanakh (Judaism’s sacred book) or the Koran was defeated by Democrats along party lines, 11-8. In other words, religious speech may be denied First Amendment protection.

“There would be national outrage over this if the media were to report on it and the public were allowed to weigh in on it. But the clock is ticking and freedom and morality are hanging in the balance.”
Reason why we don't see eye to eye on things, Jon. I support same-sex marriage, but the same recognition/constitutional protections that YOU seek for yourself, you're not willing to fight for if they apply to someone who disagrees with you.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by dbackjon »

Wrong T-man.

First off, what happens in Sweden and England is irrelevant to the United States.

And, there will be some over-zealous police/prosecutors - but you will see the ACLU, etc defend their rights to hate speech. I don't condone, nor agree with examples in your first quote (but would like links to research).

And do not use the homophobic (sorry JoltinJoe, but they are) Catholic League as a source - HB 1913 would not do what that bigot espouses.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by travelinman67 »

And since you're the one who brought up "agendas" (rightwing, Christian extremists), then I know you won't mind my quoting a nice passage from Kirk and Madsen's "After The Ball"...the playbook for GLBT extremists...

(it's long...so I'll Spoil it so as to not frighten the ADD'ers)
Spoiler: show
From "After the Ball - How America will conquer its fear and hatred of Gays in the 90s." - Penguin Books, 1989 pp. 147-157.
by Marshall K. Kirk and Hunter Madsen

"PUSHING THE RIGHT BUTTONS: HALTING, DERAILING, OR REVERSING THE 'ENGINE OF PREJUDICE' "
In the past, gays have tinkered ineptly with the engine of prejudice. Is it possible to tinker more favorably? We present (in order of increasing vigor and desirability) three general approaches [which are vastly better than what we've tried in the past].

These approaches, once understood, will lead us directly to the principles upon which a viable campaign can be erected.

I. DESENSITIZATION

From the point of view of evolution, prejudice is an alerting signal, warning tribal mammals that a potentially dangerous alien mammal is in the vicinity, and should be fought or fled. Alerting mechanisms respond to novelties in the environment, because novelties represent change from the usual, and are, therefore, potentially important.

One of two things can happen: (1) If the alerting mechanism is very strongly activated, it will produce an unendurable emotional state, forcing the tribal mammal to fight the novelty or flee it. (2) If, however, the novelty is either low-grade, or simply odd without being threatening, the alerting mechanism will be mildly activated, producing an emotional state that, if other environmental circumstances militate against it, will be too weak to motivate any actual behavioral response. In the latter case, the mammal may peer curiously at the novelty for quite some time, but will not do anything about it, or to it.

As a general physio-psychological rule, novelties cease to be novel if they just stick around long enough; they also cease to activate alerting mechanisms. There are excellent evolutionary reasons for this: if the mammal either has no good reason to respond, or is for some reason incapable of doing so, it is actually hindered in its normal activities if its attention continues to be taken up by an irrelevancy. You'll have noted this in your own life: if you hear a protracted, earsplitting mechanical screech, you'll either be so alarmed, or so annoyed, that you'll be forced to take action; if you hear a softer--though, perhaps, nonetheless annoying--sound, like the ticking of a clock, and can't shut it off, you will, eventually, shut it out, and may cease to hear it altogether. Similarly with a rank odor, smelled upon entering a room; if you can't get rid of it, you eventually cease to smell it.

Franz Kafka wrote a delightful fable ("The Animal in the Synagogue") that might almost have had Desensitization in mind. His story--never finished-deals with a peculiar animal, the only one of its kind, which has been living, since time immemorial, in a synagogue. The elders take a dim view of this state of affairs; though quiet, the animal emerges from its nook during services and distracts the women (who sit at the back) from their devotions. Moreover, there is no telling, with so very odd an animal, what its habits might eventually prove to be. Suppose it bites? There is talk of mounting an expedition to catch and kill it. But the synagogue is very large and very old, with a thousand bolt- holes in which the animal might hide, and it is capable of climbing high and running fast. Any such expedition would be difficult, and would run the risk not only of failure, but of damaging irreplaceable artwork. The upshot is that the elders call the whole thing off; and, as the animal never gives anyone the least trouble, they get used to its presence, and eventually cease to think about it at all.

Apply this to the problem of homohatred. If gays present themselves-- or allow themselves to be presented--as overwhelmingly different and threatening, they will put straights on a triple-red alert, driving them to overt acts of political oppression or physical violence. If, however, gays can live alongside straights, visibly but as inoffensively as possible, they will arouse a low-grade alert only, which, though annoying to straights, will eventually diminish for purely physiological reasons. Straights will be desensitized. Put more simply, if you go out of your way to be unendurable, people will try to destroy you; otherwise, they might eventually get used to you. This commonsense axiom should make it clear that living down to the stereotype, a la Gender-Bending, is a very bad idea.

We can extract the following principle for our campaign to desensitize straights to gays and gayness, inundate them in a continuous flood of gay-related advertising, presented in the least offensive fashion possible. If straights can't shut off the shower, they may at least eventually get used to being wet.

Of course, while sheer indifference is, itself, vastly preferable to hatred and threats, we would like to do better than that. We turn next to more difficult, but also more vigorous and rewarding, tactics.

2. JAMMING

The engine of prejudice can be made to grind to a halt not only by Desensitization, in which it is simply allowed to run out of steam, but also by the more active process of Jamming. As the name implies, Jamming involves the insertion into the engine of a pre-existing, incompatible emotional response, gridlocking its mechanism as thoroughly as though one had sprinkled fine sand into the workings of an old-fashioned pocket watch. Jamming, as an approach, is more active and aggressive than Desensitization; by the same token, it is also more enjoyable and heartening.

Jamming makes use of the rules of Associative Conditioning (the psychological process whereby, when two things are repeatedly juxtaposed, one's feelings about one thing are transferred to the other) and Direct Emotional Modeling (the inborn tendency of human beings to feel what they perceive others to be feeling).

Turning Associative Conditioning and Direct Emotional Modeling against themselves, we Jam by forging a fresh link between, on the one hand, some part of the mechanism, and, on the other, a pre-existing, external, opposed, and therefore incompatible emotional response. Ideally, the bigot subjected to such counterconditioning will ultimately experience two emotional responses to the hated object, opposed and competing. The consequent internal confusion has two effects: first, it is unpleasant-- we can call it 'emotional dissonance,' after Festinger--and will tend to result in an alteration of previous beliefs and feelings so as to resolve the internal conflict. Since the weaker of the clashing emotional associations is the more likely to give way, we can achieve optimal results by linking the prejudicial response to a stronger and more fundamental structure of belief and emotion. (Naturally, in some people this will be impossible, as prejudicial hatred is the strongest ) element in their beliefs, emotions, and motivations. Without resorting to prefrontal lobotomy--ah! sweet dreams!--these people are more or less unsalvageable.) Second, even where an optimal resolution does not occur, the internal dissonance will tend to inhibit overt expression of the prejudicial emotion--which is, in itself, useful and relieving.

The 'incompatible emotional response' is directed primarily against the emotional rewards of prejudicial solidarity. All normal people feel shame when they perceive that they are not thinking, feeling, or acting like one of the pack. And, these days, all but the stupidest and most unregenerate of bigots perceive that prejudice against all other minority groups-e.g., blacks, Jews, Catholics, women, et al.--has long since ceased to be approved, let alone fashionable, and that to express such prejudices, if not to hold them, makes one decidedly not one of the pack. It was permissible, some forty years ago, to tell the vilest ethnic jokes at the average party, and, if the joke was reasonably well told, the joker could expect to receive applause and approval from his or her roistering confreres. (Should you find this hard to believe, read 2500 Jokes for All Occasions, a popular 1942 compilation by Powers Moulton, which will surely stand your hair on end.) With the exception of certain benighted social classes and backward areas of the country, this is quite generally no longer the case.

The trick is to get the bigot into the position of feeling a conflicting twinge of shame, along with his reward, whenever his homohatred surfaces, so that his reward will be diluted or spoiled. This can be accomplished in a variety of ways, all making use of repeated exposure to pictorial images or verbal statements that are incompatible with his self-image as a well-liked person, one who fits in with the rest of the crowd. Thus, propagandistic advertisement can depict homophobic and homohating bigots as crude loudmouths and assholes--people who say not only 'faggot' but 'nigger,' 'kike,' and other shameful epithets--who are 'not Christian.' It can show them being criticized, hated, shunned. It can depict gays experiencing horrific suffering as the direct result of homohatred-suffering of which even most bigots would be ashamed to be the cause. It can, in short, link homohating bigotry with all sorts of attributes the bigot would be ashamed to possess, and with social consequences he would find unpleasant and scary. The attack, therefore, is on self-image and on the pleasure in hating.

When our ads show a bigot--just like the members of the target audience--being criticized, hated, and shunned, we make use of Direct Emotional Modeling as well. Remember, a bigot seeks approval and liking from 'his crowd.' When he sees someone like himself being disapproved of and disliked by ordinary Joes, Direct Emotional Modeling ensures that he will feel just what they feel --and transfer it to himself. This wrinkle effectively elicits shame and doubt, Jamming any pleasure he might normally feel. In a very real sense, every time a bigot sees such a thing, he is un- learning a little bit of the lesson of prejudice taught him by his parents and peers.

Such an approach may seem much too weak to work, yet bear these thoughts in mind: (a) the procedure is exactly that which formed the prejudicial complex to begin with; (b) the majority of casual bigots do not, in fact, see themselves as unpleasant people and would hate to think that others see them as such, let alone that their hatred has caused suffering and death; (c) there has, in fact, been a major turnaround in the acceptability, in this country, of prejudice against other minority groups, due, in our opinion, in no small part to exactly such counterconditioning and linking; and (d) such an approach has actually been used in TV advertisements, most memorably in an antidrinking ad showing a teenage boy drinking at a party, but not meeting with approval: indeed, as he gets more and more drunk, his behavior becomes more and more obnoxious, and he is regarded by the other partiers with disgust; ultimately, his head turns into that of a heehawing jackass. One can readily see how this sort of thing could be adapted to our own purposes.

Note that the bigot need not actually be made to believe that he is such a heinous creature, that others will now despise him, and that he has been the immoral agent of suffering. It would be impossible to make him believe any such thing. Rather, our effect is achieved without reference to facts, logic, or proof. Just as the bigot became such, without any say in the matter, through repeated infralogical emotional conditioning, his bigotry can be alloyed in exactly the same way, whether he is conscious of the attack or not. Indeed, the more he is distracted by any incidental, even specious, surface arguments, the less conscious he'll be of the true nature of the process--which is all to the good.

In short, Jamming succeeds insofar as it inserts even a slight frisson of doubt and shame into the previously unalloyed, self- righteous pleasure. The approach can be quite useful and effective -- if our message can get the massive exposure upon which all else depends.

3.CONVERSION

Desensitization aims at lowering the intensity of antigay emotional reactions to a level approximating sheer indifference; Jamming attempts to blockade or counteract the rewarding 'pride in prejudice' (peace, Jane Austen!) by attaching to homohatred a pre-existing, and punishing, sense of shame in being a bigot, a horse's ass, and a beater and murderer. Both Desensitization and Jamming, though extremely useful, are mere preludes to our highest --though necessarily very long-range--goal, which is Conversion.

It isn't enough that antigay bigots should become confused about us, or even indifferent to us--we are safest, in the long run, if we can actually make them like us. Conversion aims at just this.

Please don't confuse Conversion with political Subversion. The word 'subversion' has a nasty ring, of which the American people are inordinately afraid--and on their guard against. Yet, ironically, by Conversion we actually mean something far more profoundly threatening to the American Way of Life, without which no truly sweeping social change can occur. We mean conversion of the average American's emotions, mind, and will, through a planned psychological attack, in the form of propaganda fed to the nation via the media. We mean 'subverting' the mechanism of prejudice to our own ends--using the very processes that made America hate us to turn their hatred into warm regard--whether they like it or not.

Put briefly, if Desensitization lets the watch run down, and Jamming throws sand in the works, Conversion reverses the spring so that the hands run backward.

Conversion makes use of Associative Conditioning, much as Jamming does--indeed, in practice the two processes overlap-- but far more ambitiously. In Conversion, the bigot, who holds a very negative stereotypic picture, is repeatedly exposed to literal picture/label pairs, in magazines, and on billboards and TV, of gay- explicitly labeled as such!--who not only don't look like his picture of a homosexual, but are carefully selected to look either like the bigot and his friends, or like any one of his other stereotypes of all-right guys-- the kind of people he already likes and ` admires. This image must, of necessity, be carefully tailored to be free of absolutely every element of the widely held stereotypes of how 'faggots' look, dress, and sound. He--or she--must not be too well or fashionably dressed; must not be too handsome--that is, mustn't look like a model--or well groomed. The image must be that of an icon of normality--a good beginning would be to take a long look at Coors beer and Three Musketeers candy commercials. Subsequent ads can branch out from that solid basis to include really adorable, athletic teenagers, kindly grandmothers, avuncular policemen, ad infinitem.

The objection will be raised--and raised, and raised--that we t would 'Uncle Tommify' the gay community; that we are exchanging one false stereotype for another equally false; that our ads are lies; that that is not how all gays actually look; that gays know it, and bigots know it. Yes, of course--we know it, too. But it makes no difference that the ads are lies; not to us, because we're using them to ethically good effect, to counter negative stereotypes that are every bit as much lies, and far more wicked ones; not to bigots, because the ads will have their effect on them whether they believe them or not.

When a bigot is presented with an image of the sort of person of whom he already has a positive stereotype, he experiences an involuntary rush of positive emotion, of good feeling; he's been conditioned to experience it. But, here, the good picture has the bad label--gay! (The ad may say something rather like 'Beauregard Smith--beer drinker, Good Ole Boy, pillar of the community, 100% American, and gay as a mongoose.') The bigot will feel two incompatible emotions: a good response to the picture, a bad response to the label. At worst, the two will cancel one another, and we will have successfully Jammed, as above. At best, Associative Conditioning will, to however small an extent, transfer the positive emotion associated with the picture to the label itself, not immediately replacing the negative response, but definitely weakening it.

You may wonder why the transfer wouldn't proceed in the opposite direction. The reason is simple: pictures are stronger than words and evoke emotional responses more powerfully. The bigot is presented with an actual picture; its label will evoke in his mind his own stereotypic picture, but what he sees in his mind's eye will be weaker than what he actually sees in front of him with the eyes in his face. The more carefully selected the advertised image is to reflect his ideal of the sort of person who just couldn't be gay, the more effective it will be. Moreover, he will, by virtue of logical necessity, see the positive picture in the ad before it can arouse his negative 'picture,' and first impressions have an advantage over second.

In Conversion, we mimic the natural process of stereotype- learning, with the following effect: we take the bigot's good feelings about all- right guys, and attach them to the label 'gay,' either weakening or, eventually, replacing his bad feelings toward the label and the prior stereotype.

Understanding Direct Emotional Modeling, you'll readily foresee its application to Conversion: whereas in Jamming the target is shown a bigot being rejected by his crowd for his prejudice against gays, in Conversion the target is shown his crowd actually associating with gays in good fellowship. Once again, it's very difficult for the average person, who, by nature and training, almost invariably feels what he sees his fellows feeling, not to re-spend in this knee-jerk fashion to a sufficiently calculated advertisement. In a way, most advertisement is founded upon an answer of Yes, definitely! to Mother's sarcastic question: I suppose if all the other kids jumped off a bridge and killed themselves, you would, too?


We've now outlined three major modes by which we can alter the itinerary of the engine of prejudice in our favor. Desensitization lets the engine run out of steam, causing it to halt on the tracks indefinitely. Jamming, in essence, derails it. Conversion-- our ambitious long-range goal--puts the engine into reverse gear and sends it back whence it came.

These modes are abstract--we've only hinted, here and there, at how they can be harnessed and put to work for us in a practical propaganda campaign . . .

Our goal, being high, is also difficult. The bottleneck in reaching it, however, isn't lack of knowledge of the psychological principles . involved, nor lack of efficacy in the methods available; the principles are known, and the methods work. The bottleneck is purely and simply achieving a sufficient scope for the dissemination of our propaganda. Success depends, as always, on flooding the media. And that, in turn, means money, which means man-hours, which means unifying the gay community for a concerted effort. Let's be blunt: those who aren't with us in this effort, either because they have better ways of wasting their time, or because they think we're politically incorrect, are most decidedly against us, against unification, and against the best interests of the gay community as a whole.
What's at issue, is not the end results, but the method in achieving it.

World Peace would be great...but not when it's achieved by murdering all your adversaries. The U.S. Constitution does not empower "social engineers".

BTW, you didn't refute the three cases cited from the U.S., so...

...yes, I am right.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by dbackjon »

Never heard of it.

I asked for a link, T-man
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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AZGrizFan wrote:
danefan wrote:
99% of the people in the country could have a certain opinion on something. But that doesn't necessarily make it the correct and just opinion.

I'm not necessarily saying that holds true in this case, but what I'm saying is that I'm not necessarily on-board with the legal precedent that Consitutional amendments can be made by a slim majority vote. Thats just bad policy IMO.

There are just too many uneducated and flippant voters out there.
Aren't we still a government OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people? Since when doesn't majority rule? :roll: :roll: :roll:
When Bush beat Gore
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by travelinman67 »

dbackjon wrote:Never heard of it.

I asked for a link, T-man
No, you did not. You said:
dbackjon wrote:Show me ONE instance where someone has been denied the ability to practice their religion.

Show me ONE instance where someone's free speech has been denied.
I chronicled three for you. If you want links, Google, "Philadelphia 11", "David Ott arrested", and "Girls Face Hate Crime Charges Over Anti-Gay Flier".

And, BTW...the cases in Sweden and UK ARE relevant as the lying scum who run Capitol Hill are pulling all stops to enable transnational application of criminal offenses, i.e., Congress can subject American's to other country's socialist, oppressive laws, then wring their hands and feign shock.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by slycat »

travelinman67 wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I don't think that's accurate at all.

For the record, I have never been oppressed or felt I was being oppressed by any gay person.

And also for the record, I've never heard of a news story about a bunch of gays ganging up to kick the crap out of a heterosexual.
Thanks to GLSEN, there's been several cases in CA of Bible Clubs being banned at High Schools, and one case of a college student being threatened with expulsion for praying at school as it was found to be "threatening" to staff.
Another case where a father objected to James Howes' "The Misfits" being read to grade school students, he eventually removed his child from the school, then spent two years in court to defend his decision. After the court case was over, the district opted to "stop reading" The Misfits to grades lower than H.S.

...want me to go on...
Oh my god give me a break. You are going to throw in a few examples of Christians getting picked on yet leave out everyone else. Ever since 9/11 every moron in this country leaves in fear of his Muslim neighbor just because of his religion. Christians, Whites, etc bitching about inequality is a joke. Everybody knows it pales in judgment to everything else.

I work a lot in rural areas and I've never heard so many racists in my life. If you aren't a WASP then you are looked down on.

That being said I've seen others pull the race card on me as a fear tactic to try and scare me off.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by slycat »

dbackjon wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
Thanks to GLSEN, there's been several cases in CA of Bible Clubs being banned at High Schools, and one case of a college student being threatened with expulsion for praying at school as it was found to be "threatening" to staff.
Another case where a father objected to James Howes' "The Misfits" being read to grade school students, he eventually removed his child from the school, then spent two years in court to defend his decision. After the court case was over, the district opted to "stop reading" The Misfits to grades lower than H.S.

...want me to go on...
A - PUBLIC SCHOOL. They can still have their bible class outside of school.

Sounds more like some students, probably pushed by their parents, were trying to SHOVE THEIR RELIGION down the throat of others.

And how many thousands of GLBT themed books have been removed from schools because of religious HATE GROUPS. Tens of thousands.
No shit. And yet if another religion was even breathed in that school all hell would break loose.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by slycat »

Sucks this happened. You would think people would have learned tolerance by now. BUt its crazy how many people live in fear of the gay lifestyle, how many people are naive to facts about it, and how many people would never even take the time to get to know and befriend a gay.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by travelinman67 »

slycat wrote:Oh my god give me a break. You are going to throw in a few examples of Christians getting picked on yet leave out everyone else. Ever since 9/11 every moron in this country leaves in fear of his Muslim neighbor just because of his religion. Christians, Whites, etc bitching about inequality is a joke. Everybody knows it pales in judgment to everything else.

I work a lot in rural areas and I've never heard so many racists in my life. If you aren't a WASP then you are looked down on.

That being said I've seen others pull the race card on me as a fear tactic to try and scare me off.
I never said there wasn't racism or bigotry against GLBT's. What I CLEARLY stated was that two wrongs don't make a right.

I've been saying this for 35 years. What was needed was an anti-discrimination bill that applied to all people of all classes, including Christians.

Funny, but I saw an ad today for some Women's Health Group looking for employees...and two of their "applicant qualifications" were that the applicant be a "pro-choice woman".

Imagine if some clinic advertised only for "pro-life male" applicants... :roll:

How long before the lawsuits were filed?
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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travelinman67 wrote:
slycat wrote:Oh my god give me a break. You are going to throw in a few examples of Christians getting picked on yet leave out everyone else. Ever since 9/11 every moron in this country leaves in fear of his Muslim neighbor just because of his religion. Christians, Whites, etc bitching about inequality is a joke. Everybody knows it pales in judgment to everything else.

I work a lot in rural areas and I've never heard so many racists in my life. If you aren't a WASP then you are looked down on.

That being said I've seen others pull the race card on me as a fear tactic to try and scare me off.
I never said there wasn't racism or bigotry against GLBT's. What I CLEARLY stated was that two wrongs don't make a right.

I've been saying this for 35 years. What was needed was an anti-discrimination bill that applied to all people of all classes, including Christians.

Funny, but I saw an ad today for some Women's Health Group looking for employees...and two of their "applicant qualifications" were that the applicant be a "pro-choice woman".

Imagine if some clinic advertised only for "pro-life male" applicants... :roll:

How long before the lawsuits were filed?
OK I see what you are getting at.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

wkuhillhound wrote:Amen. pastor Dback! :P

If you are a SWM (straight white male) in this country, the deck is stacked in your favor in virtually every way. No wonder why most SWMs feel the way they do about someone that is different than them. They can't help it. It's in their nature. If I get flack for this post, oh well.
Hey Hillhound I just want you to know that I am not offended by you saying "It's in their nature". We all have our little prejudices so you are allowed yours as well. One thing to consider though. The high turnout of the Black male vote is one of the reasons that Prop 8 is the problem it is right now. I just think if we're gonna point fingers then maybe we should point them at all groups involved. Black men are traditionally very anti gay. It's in their nature.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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I think its the tough guy image of any race to be sacred or uncomfortable of gays and therefor hate them.

I had a real meathead roommate in college that hated gays. There was a GLBT Halloween Ball in San Marcos and a gay guy got the shit beat out of him after it. When my roommate heard he said that he wishes he had been there to join in.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

slycat wrote:I think its the tough guy image of any race to be sacred or uncomfortable of gays and therefor hate them.

I had a real meathead roommate in college that hated gays. There was a GLBT Halloween Ball in San Marcos and a gay guy got the shit beat out of him after it. When my roommate heard he said that he wishes he had been there to join in.
Dumb is all around us at all times.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
slycat wrote:I think its the tough guy image of any race to be sacred or uncomfortable of gays and therefor hate them.

I had a real meathead roommate in college that hated gays. There was a GLBT Halloween Ball in San Marcos and a gay guy got the shit beat out of him after it. When my roommate heard he said that he wishes he had been there to join in.
Dumb is all around us at all times.
Whats crazy in when people just assume you are racist. I've talked to older guys in the country or gun store and they will suddenly just start attacking different races or religions. Of course I had a black guy call me racist just because he had a complaint called on his business. He said we were picking on him because he was black.
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

Post by UNHWildCats »

Wedgebuster wrote:
D1B wrote:Gays can thank three primarys here:

First and foremost christian fundamentalists and the Catholic Church

The Republican Party (Z, T, wild and you other shitheads)

Black men - for some reason they are threatened by gay men. I just don't get it.

Don't leave out the fucking mormons on this, they footed the bill for Prop 8. Think the next time they come knocking on my door I'll invite 'em in for a damn good ass buggering just to see how fast they retreat.
Maybe they can use that in an appeal to the SCOTUS.... Would the Mormon church funding the Yes On 8 campaign be a violation of seperation of Church and State?
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Re: Prop 8 Ruling this morning

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As for why blacks are soo opposed to same sex marriage?

I honestly wonder if they are just pissed off that the gay rights movement is compared to the civil rights movement.
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