One Nation Under God

[Ibanez]

The second part of the quote that John St. Wrong didn't post...
"I found that they differed upon matters of detail alone, and that they all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point."

Kalm already said that, you dirty, smelly hippy.

[Chizzang]

Since you two knuckleheads lack the curiosity to look into HI54UNI's John Oliver post and I KNOW you lack the attention span to youtube his video:



http://www.vox.com/2016/2/22/11092358/j ... ek-tonight

Jeezus Christ

Even you know Chizzy likes to shoot shit out of his ass without one ounce of proof or fact. I find it very amusing that AZ called him out on it like I have on several occasions.

Good old con artist Chizzang...
That guy never makes a valid points or says anything factual

[Ivytalk]

Jeezus Christ

Even you know Chizzy likes to shoot **** out of his ass without one ounce of proof or fact. I find it very amusing that AZ called him out on it like I have on several occasions.

Good old con artist Chizzang...
That guy never makes a valid points or says anything factual

Don't know about "factual," but you sure have turned into a cranky old geezer. What happened? Turned 50? Run out of spray starch?

[Chizzang]

Good old con artist Chizzang...
That guy never makes a valid points or says anything factual

Don't know about "factual," but you sure have turned into a cranky old geezer. What happened? Turned 50? Run out of spray starch?

[AZGrizFan]

Since you two knuckleheads lack the curiosity to look into HI54UNI's John Oliver post and I KNOW you lack the attention span to youtube his video:

Moreover, legal abortions have a mortality rate of 0.00073 percent. "That is nearly 10 times less than what one study found was the risk for dying as the result of a colonoscopy," Oliver said. "And let's agree, by the way, all of us: Death by colonoscopy has to be one of the worst ways to die."

But with all the restrictions some states are passing, abortion has become impossible for some women, even young rape victims. In a video played by Oliver, Marva Sadler, the clinical director of Whole Woman's Health in Texas, explained how she had to reject one such patient.

"In order to see her, I need to put her to sleep. And in order to do that, I need a nurse anesthetist. And because of this crazy law, it is impossible to find people to work for us," Sadler said. "She's 13 years old. And she is a victim of rape. And she drove four hours from McAllen to San Antonio. And we had to turn her away."

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/22/11092358/j ... ek-tonight

This is the last review for that clinic by someone who went there trying to avoid being part of that .00073%:

This clinic was overall a bad choice for me..first for the clinics employees they were all nice everyone was helpful during and after the process.
I met the Dr once the day before and after...she seemed iffy at first it was all very quick..
After in the recovering area I stayed for a while...I felt very sick...when we left within about 20 minutes I felt more sick I started to black out so I returned to the clinic and all they did was give me some juice. The Dr saw me and said I had a low blood sugar.. And I might have had a allergic reaction to one of the medicines they used during the procedure..it was a numbing medicine. So after being there we left.. It was hopeless being there...
Five days after the procedure I woke up with a terrible pain that lasted for about two hours, this clinic said they had a 24 hr nurse I could call any moment and the first time I call she didn't answer it was asking to leave a message...my thing is when we're having a medical issue she should answer her phone!
I couldn't stand it anymore I had to go to the E.R after being there all day under their care I had to be kept over night due to a issue with the abortion that wasn't done right.. This was a terrible experience for me.. And I just feel like I would never recommend this clinic to anyone. Not saying all this to scare you...but to be prepared for the risks after the procedure.. Although they made me very aware by signing all these papers in the beginning including what risks happen after a abortion I feel like this shouldn't have happened... the Dr in there shouldn't be doing these procedures If they aren't completed correctly! Well there you go one star for you

Regular Florence Nightengales, they are....

[Baldy]

Jeezus Christ

Even you know Chizzy likes to shoot shit out of his ass without one ounce of proof or fact. I find it very amusing that AZ called him out on it like I have on several occasions.

Good old con artist Chizzang...
That guy never makes a valid points or says anything factual

Now now, I didn't say that.

However, you do have a tendency to shoot from the hip.

[houndawg]

Abortion is very nearly illegal in Texas..
There is a case in Texas going to the state highest courts right now

a 13 year old girl RAPED is being forced to carry to term
Because she can't drive the 5 hours to New Mexico and pay the $5,000 dollars

and she cannot get anybody in Texas to perform the abortion

So may I suggest a hearty F*ck You Tom... with all sincerity applied
and your personal ignorance as well as your stupid blind support of your party on this

Yes raped children's ability to get an abortion is absolutely AT STAKE
that's how SICK and PERVERTED the RIGHT WING MACHINE has become all to get a few votes on the fringe

Good lord. Calm down son, you're gonna give yourself the vapors.

And I would LOVE to see some links to some stories from this decade regarding Texas abortion laws. The only story I could find was about a 14-year-old in Corpus Christi who doesn't WANT to get an abortion but whose family is trying to force her to.....

You really shouldn't make **** up. You're ALREADY on shaky ground here....

hey - get your own material

[houndawg]

Perhaps I titled the thread poorly, but the main assertion the research makes is that Christian values being the foundation of the US is actually a recent idea born from opposition to the New Deal

If that is the case, how is it that Alexis de Tocqueville came to observe the United States culture and, in a work published in 1835, wrote this:

Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief.

I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/detocq.html

That was an independent observer from another land making observations about the culture of the United States during the early 1800s.

If the assertion of the research is what you say it is, the research is pretty clearly full of crap.

That's nice and all John, but by then it was already the law that "..the United States are in no sense a Christian nation.."

You need to learn a new trick, son.

[Ibanez]

If that is the case, how is it that Alexis de Tocqueville came to observe the United States culture and, in a work published in 1835, wrote this:



http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/detocq.html

That was an independent observer from another land making observations about the culture of the United States during the early 1800s.

If the assertion of the research is what you say it is, the research is pretty clearly full of crap.

That's nice and all John, but by then it was already the law that "..the United States are in no sense a Christian nation.."

You need to learn a new trick, son.

I agree with John Adams, he would know better than anyone of us.

[JohnStOnge]

ohn, when do you stop embarrassing yourself with this...?
Misquoting Alexis de Tocqueville is old hat for Fundamentalist Christians
and your site is a Religious HACK site

The rest of the Alexis de Tocqueville quote is as follows...

"I found that they differed upon matters of detail alone, and that they all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point."



I went to school John and de Tocqueville is perhaps the most misquoted historian by Christians...
and I'm glad to see you also misunderstand the man and America to suit your needs



Christians will stop at nothing to re-write American history and their own damned Bible
which largely goes unread along with American history

Dude, I did not misquote him at all. I copied and pasted his words. A completely accurate quote. And notice that the additional quote you added includes reference to "the peaceful dominion of religion."

What do you think that means? It means he perceived religion as having dominion.

[Ibanez]

ohn, when do you stop embarrassing yourself with this...?
Misquoting Alexis de Tocqueville is old hat for Fundamentalist Christians
and your site is a Religious HACK site

The rest of the Alexis de Tocqueville quote is as follows...

"I found that they differed upon matters of detail alone, and that they all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point."



I went to school John and de Tocqueville is perhaps the most misquoted historian by Christians...
and I'm glad to see you also misunderstand the man and America to suit your needs



Christians will stop at nothing to re-write American history and their own damned Bible
which largely goes unread along with American history

Dude, I did not misquote him at all. I copied and pasted his words. A completely accurate quote. And notice that the additional quote you added includes reference to "the peaceful dominion of religion."

What do you think that means? It means he perceived religion as having dominion.

You also ignored the beginning of that chapter

Care taken by the Americans to separate the church from the state--The laws, public opinion, and even the exertions of the clergy concur to promote this end

And immediately after what you had posted, Tocqueville says,

This led me to examine more attentively than I had hitherto done the station which the American clergy occupy in political society. I learned with surprise that they filled no public appointments; 4 I did not see one of them in the administration, and they are not even represented in the legislative assemblies. In several states 5 the law excludes them from political life; public opinion excludes them in all. And when I came to inquire into the prevailing spirit of the clergy, I found that most of its members seemed to retire of their own accord from the exercise of power, and that they made it the pride of their profession to abstain from politics

That's very interesting assessment. Tocqueville tells us that while religion is important, Americans had gone to great lengths to avoid the combination of church and state which includes legally barring them.

And lastly,

If the Americans, who change the head of the government once in four years, who elect new legislators every two years, and renew the state officers every twelve months; if the Americans, who have given up the political world to the attempts of innovators, had not placed religion beyond their reach, where could it take firm hold in the ebb and flow of human opinions? Where would be that respect which belongs to it, amid the struggles of faction? And what would become of its immortality, in the midst of uni- versal decay? The American clergy were the first to perceive this truth and to act in conformity with it. They saw that they must renounce their religious influence if they were to strive for political power, and they chose to give up the support of the state rather than to share its vicissitudes.

America. Was. Not. Founded. As. A. Christian. Nation. It was founded by Protestants, Catholics and Deists but that doesn't make it a religious country.

[GannonFan]

Dude, I did not misquote him at all. I copied and pasted his words. A completely accurate quote. And notice that the additional quote you added includes reference to "the peaceful dominion of religion."

What do you think that means? It means he perceived religion as having dominion.

You also ignored the beginning of that chapter

Care taken by the Americans to separate the church from the state--The laws, public opinion, and even the exertions of the clergy concur to promote this end

And immediately after what you had posted, Tocqueville says,

This led me to examine more attentively than I had hitherto done the station which the American clergy occupy in political society. I learned with surprise that they filled no public appointments; 4 I did not see one of them in the administration, and they are not even represented in the legislative assemblies. In several states 5 the law excludes them from political life; public opinion excludes them in all. And when I came to inquire into the prevailing spirit of the clergy, I found that most of its members seemed to retire of their own accord from the exercise of power, and that they made it the pride of their profession to abstain from politics

That's very interesting assessment. Tocqueville tells us that while religion is important, Americans had gone to great lengths to avoid the combination of church and state which includes legally barring them.

And lastly,

If the Americans, who change the head of the government once in four years, who elect new legislators every two years, and renew the state officers every twelve months; if the Americans, who have given up the political world to the attempts of innovators, had not placed religion beyond their reach, where could it take firm hold in the ebb and flow of human opinions? Where would be that respect which belongs to it, amid the struggles of faction? And what would become of its immortality, in the midst of uni- versal decay? The American clergy were the first to perceive this truth and to act in conformity with it. They saw that they must renounce their religious influence if they were to strive for political power, and they chose to give up the support of the state rather than to share its vicissitudes.

America. Was. Not. Founded. As. A. Christian. Nation. It was founded by Protestants, Catholics and Deists but that doesn't make it a religious country.

If there was ever a cause for an /thread line this is it. Well done.

/thread

[Ibanez]

You also ignored the beginning of that chapter



And immediately after what you had posted, Tocqueville says,


That's very interesting assessment. Tocqueville tells us that while religion is important, Americans had gone to great lengths to avoid the combination of church and state which includes legally barring them.

And lastly,




America. Was. Not. Founded. As. A. Christian. Nation. It was founded by Protestants, Catholics and Deists but that doesn't make it a religious country.

If there was ever a cause for an /thread line this is it. Well done.

/thread

Thank you. I eagerly await JSO's rebuttal.

[JohnStOnge]

Fellas, nothing you posted changes the fact that de Tocqueville wrote this:

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious.

That is what it is. You can say all you want about what he wrote about Separation of Church and State. But he wrote that his observation was that the sovereign authority was religious.

I'm sorry guys, but try as you may you can't get around that if you're intellectually honest.

[Chizzang]

Fellas, nothing you posted changes the fact that de Tocqueville wrote this:

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious.

That is what it is. You can say all you want about what he wrote about Separation of Church and State. But he wrote that his observation was that the sovereign authority was religious.

I'm sorry guys, but try as you may you can't get around that if you're intellectually honest.

Oh yes John,
You're the only intellectually honest person here
You have no motive other than the truth in its simplest most unadulterated form

[Ibanez]

Fellas, nothing you posted changes the fact that de Tocqueville wrote this:

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious.

That is what it is. You can say all you want about what he wrote about Separation of Church and State. But he wrote that his observation was that the sovereign authority was religious.

I'm sorry guys, but try as you may you can't get around that if you're intellectually honest.

Do you even know what he's talking about? He's talking about the devoutness (?) of Americans. Not the government. Please, tell me who the religious leaders were in the 1830s that were running the US Government. On any level. Please, i'll be waiting for the list of Priests, Rabbis, Pastors, etc...

Again, look at what I posted.

You are just wrong on this.

And speaking of intellectual honesty, if you're going to post Tocq, post the entire entry.

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

He's talking about the people, not the government.

[JohnStOnge]

You're the only intellectually honest person here
You have no motive other than the truth in its simplest most unadulterated form

I don't know if the first statement is accurate. But the second one is.

Look, he said what he said about the "sovereign" thing and none of the stuff you guys posted changes that.

[Ibanez]

You're the only intellectually honest person here
You have no motive other than the truth in its simplest most unadulterated form

I don't know if the first statement is accurate. But the second one is.

Look, he said what he said about the "sovereign" thing and none of the stuff you guys posted changes that.

Actually, using the full text of Tocqueville (the text you are conveniently not including) proves that you are wrong. You're posting incomplete excerpts, totally out of context. How can you justify that?

[Ibanez]

You're the only intellectually honest person here
You have no motive other than the truth in its simplest most unadulterated form

I don't know if the first statement is accurate. But the second one is.

Look, he said what he said about the "sovereign" thing and none of the stuff you guys posted changes that.

Cleets is being sarcastic, btw.

[Chizzang]

I don't know if the first statement is accurate. But the second one is.

Look, he said what he said about the "sovereign" thing and none of the stuff you guys posted changes that.

Cleets is being sarcastic, btw.

Ibanez,
How can a man claim to understand Alexis de Tocqueville and simultaneously not understand sarcasm..?
Interesting for sure

And de Tocqueville's point in this case is a long descriptive monologue about "Americans"
picking and choosing snippets from it is not useful unless you wish to deceive

Shortening the quotes and removing the parts that don't suit your argument
As John has done - THAT - is intellectual dishonesty

[YoUDeeMan]

You can argue Tocque all you want, but when someone says that the people are religious, and that religion lead them to create a government that is to be admired, then you can't honestly say that religion has no place in government.

Sure, he followed that religious leaders should not hold governmental posts...and they should not preach their politics from the pulpit (good luck with that)...but that doesn't mean that Toc didn't expect the people who elected their political leaders should forget their moral compass...their souls...their Christian religious souls, when leading, and making decisions concerning, this country.


Full Definition of sovereign
1
a : one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty
b : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere
c : an acknowledged leader :




Hello.

[∞∞∞]

This discussion actually got me to pick up "Democracy in America" earlier tonight. I'll be reading it over the next week or two when I have time.

[Chizzang]

This discussion actually got me to pick up "Democracy in America" earlier tonight. I'll be reading it over the next week or two when I have time.

Dude,
That's top notch work right there ^ I look forward to your findings...

[∞∞∞]

This discussion actually got me to pick up "Democracy in America" earlier tonight. I'll be reading it over the next week or two when I have time.

Dude,
That's top notch work right there ^ I look forward to your findings...

I wish I realized this yesterday, but the Kindle version is free on Amazon:

http://amzn.com/B0082ZJMPY

http://amzn.com/B0082ZJNN0

Returning the physical copy today.

[Ivytalk]

I don't believe we're the minority, Gil. Just not as easy to pin down, and not represented by either major party.

What are you nodding about, densedawg? You're no frickin' moderate.