Things you'll never hear a Christian say...

[kalm]

Quit sucking up to God with Canadian rock formations, hoser!

I read an article this morning on how the City of Medicine Hat has eliminated homelessness by providing housing to all of it's indigents. I then wiki'd the city to learn more about it (geography nerd), saw something on the Crowsnest highway, then googled Crowsnest and bam! Pretty damn baddass hunk of rock at 9,000 plus feet.

I then of course went on to google flyfishing and lodging in SW Alberta and SE BC (fishing nerd)

I seem to remember you visiting that area and was wondering if you'd recognize it.

(Good story, Bro)

[Grizalltheway]

Quit sucking up to God with Canadian rock formations, hoser!

I read an article this morning on how the City of Medicine Hat has eliminated homelessness by providing housing to all of it's indigents. I then wiki'd the city to learn more about it (geography nerd), saw something on the Crowsnest highway, then googled Crowsnest and bam! Pretty damn baddass hunk of rock at 9,000 plus feet.

I then of course went on to google flyfishing and lodging in SW Alberta and SE BC (fishing nerd)

I seem to remember you visiting that area and was wondering if you'd recognize it.

(Good story, Bro)

Looks like it's about an hour away from Fernie, where I went skiing last year. I'll have to check it out next time. Maybe. But probably not.

[YoUDeeMan]

Hmmm...stating that believing in a God that cares about each and every individual, and one that is all loving but somehow enjoys seeing his children rape each other and chop off 4-year old children's heads, is absurd is somehow taken as an attempt to convert God believers into non-believers?

If I say that Lower Delawareans are slow thinking folks who have, by their voting records, encouraged the development of land so that furiners from Washington and other places across the Chesapeake Bay can overrun the local beaches and create immense traffic jams, it is not an attempt to convert those slower Delawareans to any type of different thinking...it is simply pointing out the obvious.

As far as InsecureInSeattle goes, if you feel stupid when people point out facts, then that is on you. But don't ask others to put on your blinders or to not laugh at absurd ideas that were created to control your weak mind. You laugh at Jim Jones and other cult leaders...give us the same respect that you give yourself (yeah....never mind the statement that you having self-respect might not be entirely accurate) as we employ a diverse approach that laughs at all cults.

[89Hen]

Hmmm...stating that believing in a God that cares about each and every individual, and one that is all loving but somehow enjoys seeing his children rape each other and chop off 4-year old children's heads, is absurd is somehow taken as an attempt to convert God believers into non-believers?

If I say that Lower Delawareans are slow thinking folks who have, by their voting records, encouraged the development of land so that furiners from Washington and other places across the Chesapeake Bay can overrun the local beaches and create immense traffic jams, it is not an attempt to convert those slower Delawareans to any type of different thinking...it is simply pointing out the obvious.

As far as InsecureInSeattle goes, if you feel stupid when people point out facts, then that is on you. But don't ask others to put on your blinders or to not laugh at absurd ideas that were created to control your weak mind. You laugh at Jim Jones and other cult leaders...give us the same respect that you give yourself (yeah....never mind the statement that you having self-respect might not be entirely accurate) as we employ a diverse approach that laughs at all cults.

[CAA Flagship]

He said:

Hmmm...stating that believing in a God that cares about each and every individual, and one that is all loving but somehow enjoys seeing his children rape each other and chop off 4-year old children's heads, is absurd is somehow taken as an attempt to convert God believers into non-believers?

If I say that Lower Delawareans are slow thinking folks who have, by their voting records, encouraged the development of land so that furiners from Washington and other places across the Chesapeake Bay can overrun the local beaches and create immense traffic jams, it is not an attempt to convert those slower Delawareans to any type of different thinking...it is simply pointing out the obvious.

As far as InsecureInSeattle goes, if you feel stupid when people point out facts, then that is on you. But don't ask others to put on your blinders or to not laugh at absurd ideas that were created to control your weak mind. You laugh at Jim Jones and other cult leaders...give us the same respect that you give yourself (yeah....never mind the statement that you having self-respect might not be entirely accurate) as we employ a diverse approach that laughs at all cults.

[JoltinJoe]

Hmmm...stating that believing in a God that cares about each and every individual, and one that is all loving but somehow enjoys seeing his children rape each other and chop off 4-year old children's heads, is absurd is somehow taken as an attempt to convert God believers into non-believers?

If I say that Lower Delawareans are slow thinking folks who have, by their voting records, encouraged the development of land so that furiners from Washington and other places across the Chesapeake Bay can overrun the local beaches and create immense traffic jams, it is not an attempt to convert those slower Delawareans to any type of different thinking...it is simply pointing out the obvious.

As far as InsecureInSeattle goes, if you feel stupid when people point out facts, then that is on you. But don't ask others to put on your blinders or to not laugh at absurd ideas that were created to control your weak mind. You laugh at Jim Jones and other cult leaders...give us the same respect that you give yourself (yeah....never mind the statement that you having self-respect might not be entirely accurate) as we employ a diverse approach that laughs at all cults.

Do you want free will or do you want to be controlled by "god?" There's some contradiction in your post.

[YoUDeeMan]

Hmmm...stating that believing in a God that cares about each and every individual, and one that is all loving but somehow enjoys seeing his children rape each other and chop off 4-year old children's heads, is absurd is somehow taken as an attempt to convert God believers into non-believers?

If I say that Lower Delawareans are slow thinking folks who have, by their voting records, encouraged the development of land so that furiners from Washington and other places across the Chesapeake Bay can overrun the local beaches and create immense traffic jams, it is not an attempt to convert those slower Delawareans to any type of different thinking...it is simply pointing out the obvious.

As far as InsecureInSeattle goes, if you feel stupid when people point out facts, then that is on you. But don't ask others to put on your blinders or to not laugh at absurd ideas that were created to control your weak mind. You laugh at Jim Jones and other cult leaders...give us the same respect that you give yourself (yeah....never mind the statement that you having self-respect might not be entirely accurate) as we employ a diverse approach that laughs at all cults.

Do you want free will or do you want to be controlled by "god?" There's some contradiction in your post.

Ahhh...an either or test. Extremism seems to be in vogue all over these threads.

To answer: free will.

But how does that pertain to needing a God or having the limited choice of a controlling God?

We don't need a God to give us free will. However, if you say there is a God that watches over each of us, and he has good intent, then you must be joking that he would allow some of the crap that happens.

To put it into other terms, I am not for anarchy.

If I elect a government, I want it to control violence. So...give us free will, but put things in place to prevent total anarchy. Will the government be perfect? Nope. But, God should be perfect (pssst...remember, you guys say He/She/It is perfect).

This world would not be a bad place if He would allow people to exercise their free will right up until the saw starts cutting into some innocent child's neck. At that point, I'd expect a police officer to gun down the nut job...and I expect a loving God to intercede to save the innocent child. The would-be killer exercised free will, but the good cop exercised his free range shooting skills.

Instead, God just allows the kid to feel her neck getting cut off. That must be something every loving parent (we are His children, right) desires, right...their child feeling a neck getting sawed off? Sure, He'll make things OK for her after the fact...if the kid paid her proper respects. If not, she rots in Hell.

Brilliant.

Sorry, joe...your God doesn't pass the sensibility test. Nor does your free will versus controlling God question. Nice try though.

[JoltinJoe]

Do you want free will or do you want to be controlled by "god?" There's some contradiction in your post.

Ahhh...an either or test. Extremism seems to be in vogue all over these threads.

To answer: free will.

But how does that pertain to needing a God or having the limited choice of a controlling God?

We don't need a God to give us free will. However, if you say there is a God that watches over each of us, and he has good intent, then you must be joking that he would allow some of the crap that happens.

To put it into other terms, I am not for anarchy.

If I elect a government, I want it to control violence. So...give us free will, but put things in place to prevent total anarchy. Will the government be perfect? Nope. But, God should be perfect (pssst...remember, you guys say He/She/It is perfect).

This world would not be a bad place if He would allow people to exercise their free will right up until the saw starts cutting into some innocent child's neck. At that point, I'd expect a police officer to gun down the nut job...and I expect a loving God to intercede to save the innocent child. The would-be killer exercised free will, but the good cop exercised his free range shooting skills.

Instead, God just allows the kid to feel her neck getting cut off. That must be something every loving parent (we are His children, right) desires, right...their child feeling a neck getting sawed off? Sure, He'll make things OK for her after the fact...if the kid paid her proper respects. If not, she rots in Hell.

Brilliant.

Sorry, joe...your God doesn't pass the sensibility test. Nor does your free will versus controlling God question. Nice try though.

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

[Chizzang]

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

I always enjoy your more direct and sincere posts Joe...
That is nice ^

Talking about God - bouncing it around - is one of my favorite things to do...
The whole notion that:
There is at least as much evidence that God is a monster as there is anything else related to God
has always been one that fascinated me

[kalm]

Ahhh...an either or test. Extremism seems to be in vogue all over these threads.

To answer: free will.

But how does that pertain to needing a God or having the limited choice of a controlling God?

We don't need a God to give us free will. However, if you say there is a God that watches over each of us, and he has good intent, then you must be joking that he would allow some of the crap that happens.

To put it into other terms, I am not for anarchy.

If I elect a government, I want it to control violence. So...give us free will, but put things in place to prevent total anarchy. Will the government be perfect? Nope. But, God should be perfect (pssst...remember, you guys say He/She/It is perfect).

This world would not be a bad place if He would allow people to exercise their free will right up until the saw starts cutting into some innocent child's neck. At that point, I'd expect a police officer to gun down the nut job...and I expect a loving God to intercede to save the innocent child. The would-be killer exercised free will, but the good cop exercised his free range shooting skills.

Instead, God just allows the kid to feel her neck getting cut off. That must be something every loving parent (we are His children, right) desires, right...their child feeling a neck getting sawed off? Sure, He'll make things OK for her after the fact...if the kid paid her proper respects. If not, she rots in Hell.

Brilliant.

Sorry, joe...your God doesn't pass the sensibility test. Nor does your free will versus controlling God question. Nice try though.

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

[YoUDeeMan]

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

Sorry, joe...you wiff again. I don't mind rigidity and extremism because God either exists or he doesn't. I believe he doesn't. Hmmmm....now explain again why you thought I didn't see that rigidity.

You admit that you are holding a rigid, and quite extreme, position on what type of God in which, or whom, you have chosen to believe. But then you toss in an odd question about wanting free will or a controlling God...as though those were the only two possibilities to avert some forms of evil and pain on someone's children. Sure, a policeman might not be there all the time...and a loving parent might not be able to always save their child from death as a result of their (and other's) free will decisions...but you can bet that they'd damned sure try. A loving God should try. Yours doesn't.

If God were a parent, he's be in jail for being a bad parent and failing to protect his children.

[JoltinJoe]

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

More irony.

[kalm]

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein

More irony.

Do you really think I would have posted that without realizing there was something in there for you as well?

Your arrogance truly makes you dumb some...scratch...much of the time.

[JoltinJoe]

The irony is you don't even see the rigidity and extremism in your own position. You reason because savage evil exists, there can be no benevolent God.

Your position is at least as rigid as mine. I say because savage evil exists, there MUST be a benevolent God, --because otherwise there is no real justice.

Typing another four-paragraph essay isn't going to change there is little difference in how we reason. We just reach different conclusions. Obviously the police officer doesn't always arrive in time. So your concept of what can be called justice is more random than mine.

Sorry, joe...you wiff again. I don't mind rigidity and extremism because God either exists or he doesn't. I believe he doesn't. Hmmmm....now explain again why you thought I didn't see that rigidity.

You admit that you are holding a rigid, and quite extreme, position on what type of God in which, or whom, you have chosen to believe. But then you toss in an odd question about wanting free will or a controlling God...as though those were the only two possibilities to avert some forms of evil and pain on someone's children. Sure, a policeman might not be there all the time...and a loving parent might not be able to always save their child from death as a result of their (and other's) free will decisions...but you can bet that they'd damned sure try. A loving God should try. Yours doesn't.

If God were a parent, he's be in jail for being a bad parent and failing to protect his children.

You see, you ignore the possibility of everlasting life, albeit in a different form. What you see as an unmitigated evil is immediately cared for by a loving God.

You also overlook another cause of the evil we perceive: that being a force for evil that draws us to commit evil. God does not will evil. Justice Scalia observed not too long ago that a leading cause of a lack of a belief in God is a lack in belief in a Devil. Yes, I know it is very uncool to belief in a Devil: with horns, a pitchfork, and red skin. That is the artful trick of this diabolical force that seeks to destroy us: it has tricked us into seeing this diabolical force as a caricature, when it is something alluring, dark, and powerful -- beyond our comprehension. So people like you blame God for evil and you don't get challenged because no one who wants to be perceived as smart or cool wants to say there is a Devil. So they stop short, and say simply God is not responsible.

I know you will say it is naive (actually, something much worse ) to believe in the Devil. But when I read history, and the writings of Hitler, for example, I find it naive to think he was not being lured by something dark and powerful, far beyond any psychosis.

You know, there is a great discussion in Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" in which a man discusses what right God can claim to allow evil, and more troubling, what right he can claim to forgive evil. It involves the case of a rich man who allowed pack of his dogs to maul a poor child who had come onto his land looking for something to eat. He argued that God, should he exist, could claim no right to forgive that man -- only the mother of the child could do that. I commend that reading to you. It's been years since I've read it, but I'm going to read it now.

I'm not going to say that it is going to change your mind, but I think it will show you that there are very thoughtful arguments (on both sides), but ultimately, if the human experience has any significance at all, there must be a benevolent and even forgiving God. Without that, the story always ends with a dead child, a bereaved mother, and the appearance that evil has won.

The ending in which the man accepts what he has done is evil, and seeks forgiveness, means that he must at first atone for the act that he has done, accept the consequences of his actions, and seek the pardon of the one he was harmed.

[JoltinJoe]

More irony.

Do you really think I would have posted that without realizing there was something in there for you as well?

Your arrogance truly makes you dumb some...scratch...much of the time.

I'm not sure how what I posted invited this response, or even suggested that I didn't understand what your point was. I got it. I was merely pointing our, again, that the observations being made here are two-way streets.

So maybe stop labeling and address concepts.

[kalm]

Do you really think I would have posted that without realizing there was something in there for you as well?

Your arrogance truly makes you dumb some...scratch...much of the time.

I'm not sure how what I posted invited this response, or even suggested that I didn't understand what your point was. I got it. I was merely pointing our, again, that the observations being made here are two-way streets.

So maybe stop labeling and address concepts.

IOW's I posted it BECAUSE it could be construed as a two way street. BECAUSE it could taken as ironic in light of the argument.

Your reply was lacking.

[Chizzang]

You see, you ignore the possibility of everlasting life, albeit in a different form. What you see as an unmitigated evil is immediately cared for by a loving God.

You also overlook another cause of the evil we perceive: that being a force for evil that draws us to commit evil. God does not will evil. Justice Scalia observed not too long ago that a leading cause of a lack of a belief in God is a lack in belief in a Devil. Yes, I know it is very uncool to belief in a Devil: with horns, a pitchfork, and red skin. That is the artful trick of this diabolical force that seeks to destroy us: it has tricked us into seeing this diabolical force as a caricature, when it is something alluring, dark, and powerful -- beyond our comprehension. So people like you blame God for evil and you don't get challenged because no one who wants to be perceived as smart or cool wants to say there is a Devil. So they stop short, and say simply God is not responsible.

I know you will say it is naive (actually, something much worse ) to believe in the Devil. But when I read history, and the writings of Hitler, for example, I find it naive to think he was not being lured by something dark and powerful, far beyond any psychosis.

You know, there is a great discussion in Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" in which a man discusses what right God can claim to allow evil, and more troubling, what right he can claim to forgive evil. It involves the case of a rich man who allowed pack of his dogs to maul a poor child who had come onto his land looking for something to eat. He argued that God, should he exist, could claim no right to forgive that man -- only the mother of the child could do that. I commend that reading to you. It's been years since I've read it, but I'm going to read it now.

I'm not going to say that it is going to change your mind, but I think it will show you that there are very thoughtful arguments (on both sides), but ultimately, if the human experience has any significance at all, there must be a benevolent and even forgiving God. Without that, the story always ends with a dead child, a bereaved mother, and the appearance that evil has won.

The ending in which the man accepts what he has done is evil, and seeks forgiveness, means that he must at first atone for the act that he has done, accept the consequences of his actions, and seek the pardon of the one he was harmed.

So Joe,
You're arguing that it is more likely that God and The Devil exist
As explained in Revelation

Rather than God being perhaps nothing like what the old Testament provides
Basically: instead of dismissing the Old Testament you're going ALL IN on it...



Which of course opens pandora's box

[YoUDeeMan]

You see, you ignore the possibility of everlasting life, albeit in a different form. What you see as an unmitigated evil is immediately cared for by a loving God.

You also overlook another cause of the evil we perceive: that being a force for evil that draws us to commit evil. God does not will evil. Justice Scalia observed not too long ago that a leading cause of a lack of a belief in God is a lack in belief in a Devil. Yes, I know it is very uncool to belief in a Devil: with horns, a pitchfork, and red skin. That is the artful trick of this diabolical force that seeks to destroy us: it has tricked us into seeing this diabolical force as a caricature, when it is something alluring, dark, and powerful -- beyond our comprehension. So people like you blame God for evil and you don't get challenged because no one who wants to be perceived as smart or cool wants to say there is a Devil. So they stop short, and say simply God is not responsible.

I know you will say it is naive (actually, something much worse ) to believe in the Devil. But when I read history, and the writings of Hitler, for example, I find it naive to think he was not being lured by something dark and powerful, far beyond any psychosis.

You know, there is a great discussion in Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" in which a man discusses what right God can claim to allow evil, and more troubling, what right he can claim to forgive evil. It involves the case of a rich man who allowed pack of his dogs to maul a poor child who had come onto his land looking for something to eat. He argued that God, should he exist, could claim no right to forgive that man -- only the mother of the child could do that. I commend that reading to you. It's been years since I've read it, but I'm going to read it now.

I'm not going to say that it is going to change your mind, but I think it will show you that there are very thoughtful arguments (on both sides), but ultimately, if the human experience has any significance at all, there must be a benevolent and even forgiving God. Without that, the story always ends with a dead child, a bereaved mother, and the appearance that evil has won.

The ending in which the man accepts what he has done is evil, and seeks forgiveness, means that he must at first atone for the act that he has done, accept the consequences of his actions, and seek the pardon of the one he was harmed.

Joe, I appreciate your responses...I really do. I don't agree with you, but when you aren't being snarky you can provide some context into your beliefs.

So you believe the Devil exists. That deserves the question, "why does God let the Devil exist?" Yup, you are correct that if there is a God that is involved, as you say, then I certainly blame God for Evil. God created EVERYTHING (you can't get around that no matter where you go), therefor, God created the Devil. If you lay out a possibility that perhaps God didn't create the Devil...man did, with his free will, then I will say that was equivalent to a parent giving a 1 year old a loaded gun and then attributing any accidents to the child's free will.

Seriously, what parent, in their right mind, would create such an environment?

Perhaps God first needs to forgive himself.

As to everlasting life...yeah, hell of a story. Complicated. Lots of different ideas about that, and some here will say that Christians simply stole that from other religions/faiths/whatever. Again, the possibility of eternal life varies according to one's belief system, but you choose a God with a specific plan. Strange plan. Hey, suffer, but believe in me and you'll be saved. Otherwise, fvck you and your poor choice.

Sorry, joe...that doesn't seem very loving.

We all die, joe. No one gets out alive. I am at peace with that. If there is some energy that gets passed on to another plane...woo-hoo! Not sure I will remember myself...but the idea that some God has planned it all out and will reward only those who believe in Him, is odd, and, if you'll pardon the expression, beyond belief. A different idea is that you die knowing that you did your best for yourself and those around you. I think my grandfather on my mother's side was generally happy with his life. My father...perhaps not so much. Me? I want to continue living my life as best I can and hoping my son can enjoy life to his liking. I can die peacefully with that thought. I also have hope that future generations of humans will figure out how to ignore the petty things and make something good for themselves. A belief in a benevolent God is not needed to embrace my positive outlook, and I don't believe that life simply is about dead children and Evil's victory.

To each his own. But no one should be immune to, or embarrassed by, others questioning their beliefs. We're social animals...communication is important. If someone throws out a thought, idea, or law, it needs to be challenged. That is how we evolve (although some folks didn't get the memo).

BTW, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check out that book...my brother read it and I believe he recommended it to me years ago.

[JoltinJoe]

So you believe the Devil exists. That deserves the question, "why does God let the Devil exist?"

I'll say this. I go snarky and troll when I think people have been snarky first. Hey, that's what we do here.

As for the answer to this question, though, the answer is I don't completely know or understand. If you read Genesis (allegorically, please), the suggestion is that we choose the allure of evil as a consequence of our free will. Which sort of brings us back to where we started.

The allegorical story is that it was God's will that we live in Paradise with him, but that we chose knowledge of good and evil. Which is an allegorical explanation, in some sense, that we are born without such knowledge but that we ultimately become aware of the difference of good and evil, and allured toward evil, as we inevitably get older (this weakness being, in Catholic philosophy, resulting from being born into our collective, original sin).

[kalm]

I'll say this. I go snarky and troll when I think people have been snarky first. Hey, that's what we do here.

Like, Cluck, I truly enjoy your more sober posts too, Joe. You are easily within the top 10 of posters I most look forward to reading, and occasionally you've changed my mind or at least rocked a foundation or two and that's a great thing!

But your snarky replies (especially when you fire the opening salvo) are just as fun.

Sincerely, thanks. Don't ever change!

[CID1990]

If there IS a god I doubt he knows we exist - we were an accident of impossible proportions.

He was probably just trying to make a better grilled cheese

[JoltinJoe]

I'll say this. I go snarky and troll when I think people have been snarky first. Hey, that's what we do here.

Like, Cluck, I truly enjoy your more sober posts too, Joe. You are easily within the top 10 of posters I most look forward to reading, and occasionally you've changed my mind or at least rocked a foundation or two and that's a great thing!

But your snarky replies (especially when you fire the opening salvo) are just as fun.

Sincerely, thanks. Don't ever change!

Hey, thanks.

I've got a friend who is a alot like Cluck. When we were in college, he didn't didn't believe in God because of the very problem Cluck has. We had a long discussion over beers one night in the El-D (a/k/a as The ElDorado, a legendary old Bronx bar). We were getting nowhere.

So I said, "Let me explain God in a way that you can relate to. Think of God's justice as the ultimate expression of the saying that revenge is a dish best served cold."

I think that actually helped him become a believer over time.

BTW, if you're interested in the El-D, check out this link. And this only scratches the surface. In the glory days of the Bronx in the 40's and 50's, guys like Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, and Jake LaMotta use to hang at the El-D. Nick, the barkeep, use to tell great stories about those days. I once asked Nick if Joe D ever bought Marilyn Monroe to the El-D, and he said, "No. But that's only because he knew I could take her from him."

http://mleddy.blogspot.com/2009/07/nick ... orado.html

[Ibanez]

You see, you ignore the possibility of everlasting life, albeit in a different form. What you see as an unmitigated evil is immediately cared for by a loving God.

You also overlook another cause of the evil we perceive: that being a force for evil that draws us to commit evil. God does not will evil. Justice Scalia observed not too long ago that a leading cause of a lack of a belief in God is a lack in belief in a Devil. Yes, I know it is very uncool to belief in a Devil: with horns, a pitchfork, and red skin. That is the artful trick of this diabolical force that seeks to destroy us: it has tricked us into seeing this diabolical force as a caricature, when it is something alluring, dark, and powerful -- beyond our comprehension. So people like you blame God for evil and you don't get challenged because no one who wants to be perceived as smart or cool wants to say there is a Devil. So they stop short, and say simply God is not responsible.

I know you will say it is naive (actually, something much worse ) to believe in the Devil. But when I read history, and the writings of Hitler, for example, I find it naive to think he was not being lured by something dark and powerful, far beyond any psychosis.

You know, there is a great discussion in Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov" in which a man discusses what right God can claim to allow evil, and more troubling, what right he can claim to forgive evil. It involves the case of a rich man who allowed pack of his dogs to maul a poor child who had come onto his land looking for something to eat. He argued that God, should he exist, could claim no right to forgive that man -- only the mother of the child could do that. I commend that reading to you. It's been years since I've read it, but I'm going to read it now.

I'm not going to say that it is going to change your mind, but I think it will show you that there are very thoughtful arguments (on both sides), but ultimately, if the human experience has any significance at all, there must be a benevolent and even forgiving God. Without that, the story always ends with a dead child, a bereaved mother, and the appearance that evil has won.

The ending in which the man accepts what he has done is evil, and seeks forgiveness, means that he must at first atone for the act that he has done, accept the consequences of his actions, and seek the pardon of the one he was harmed.

Joe, I appreciate your responses...I really do. I don't agree with you, but when you aren't being snarky you can provide some context into your beliefs.

So you believe the Devil exists. That deserves the question, "why does God let the Devil exist?" Yup, you are correct that if there is a God that is involved, as you say, then I certainly blame God for Evil. God created EVERYTHING (you can't get around that no matter where you go), therefor, God created the Devil. If you lay out a possibility that perhaps God didn't create the Devil...man did, with his free will, then I will say that was equivalent to a parent giving a 1 year old a loaded gun and then attributing any accidents to the child's free will.

Seriously, what parent, in their right mind, would create such an environment?

Perhaps God first needs to forgive himself.

As to everlasting life...yeah, hell of a story. Complicated. Lots of different ideas about that, and some here will say that Christians simply stole that from other religions/faiths/whatever. Again, the possibility of eternal life varies according to one's belief system, but you choose a God with a specific plan. Strange plan. Hey, suffer, but believe in me and you'll be saved. Otherwise, fvck you and your poor choice.

Sorry, joe...that doesn't seem very loving.

We all die, joe. No one gets out alive. I am at peace with that. If there is some energy that gets passed on to another plane...woo-hoo! Not sure I will remember myself...but the idea that some God has planned it all out and will reward only those who believe in Him, is odd, and, if you'll pardon the expression, beyond belief. A different idea is that you die knowing that you did your best for yourself and those around you. I think my grandfather on my mother's side was generally happy with his life. My father...perhaps not so much. Me? I want to continue living my life as best I can and hoping my son can enjoy life to his liking. I can die peacefully with that thought. I also have hope that future generations of humans will figure out how to ignore the petty things and make something good for themselves. A belief in a benevolent God is not needed to embrace my positive outlook, and I don't believe that life simply is about dead children and Evil's victory.

To each his own. But no one should be immune to, or embarrassed by, others questioning their beliefs. We're social animals...communication is important. If someone throws out a thought, idea, or law, it needs to be challenged. That is how we evolve (although some folks didn't get the memo).

BTW, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check out that book...my brother read it and I believe he recommended it to me years ago.

I pretty much share your belief. The following is a general series of question, not directed at you.

If God created everything, why did he create evil? Why create evil then punish us for it? I was never able to reconcile the two Gods. I was never able to reconcile the God of the OT (vengeful) with the God of the NT(all loving).

It's like having a drunk and abusive father in the morning, but at night he turns into a loving, caring person.

Do we really have free will? If you tell me that i'm going to hell unless I go to Church and adhere to rules, then is my following them truly my own will? Aren't you taking away my free will of a child with your threat of damnation?

Is there any act that is truly of your own volition or is every act a response to something?


To take it further, if God is good and God created everything, then logically wouldn't anything he created be good? Take free will out of it because out of everything he's created, we only recognize 1 species with that capability. Opium is good. Cannabis is good. Tobacco is good. It's human intervention, in those situations, that make them "bad".


There probably isn't a correct answer for any of those questions. Each and every time I question religion, the answer inevitably boils down to, "have faith."

Spoiler: show

I have a pretty firm grasp on Catholicism and Religious philosophy. I was a devout until I was 19 yrs old. Attended and did very well in every religion class I took. I come from a devout household, we all attended Catholic schools. I aced philosophy in college and as my atheist professor wrote on my final, "...one of a few students over the years to make me think and question my own beliefs as it pertained to the existence of a deity." It's a subject that I enjoy very much to the point that I continue to study the subject in my spare time.

[YoUDeeMan]

We had a long discussion over beers one night...

Discussions over good beer...really good beer.

OK, joe, ya' got me...there is a God.

[Ibanez]

We had a long discussion over beers one night...

Discussions over good beer...really good beer.

OK, joe, ya' got me...there is a God.

It was a Lowenbrau.