What is it with the Cruz "Theocracy" thing?

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:08 pm

Ok I've seen some of you guys say Cruz wants a Theocracy. Today I was riding around with someone for work purposes and they said Cruz wants a Theocracy. What exactly has Cruz said that make y'all think he wants a Theocracy?

I swear I haven't heard him say anything to suggest he wants a Theocracy. I don't know where the heck this is coming from but it's obviously out there.

So what is it? What has he said?

Post by **Ivytalk** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:54 pm

Ask your wife.

Post by **kalm** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:25 pm

Well he believes in hobbit homes so maybe it's some sort of new age Tolkien fantasy type of thing. Which would actually be cool.

Post by **Ibanez** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:48 am

JohnStOnge wrote:Ok I've seen some of you guys say Cruz wants a Theocracy. Today I was riding around with someone for work purposes and they said Cruz wants a Theocracy. What exactly has Cruz said that make y'all think he wants a Theocracy?

I swear I haven't heard him say anything to suggest he wants a Theocracy. I don't know where the heck this is coming from but it's obviously out there.

So what is it? What has he said?

Listen to him speak and try to keep an open mind.

He's a dominionist (sp). Just listen to his speeches.

Post by **Ibanez** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:49 am

Ivytalk wrote:Ask your wife.

Haha. /thread

Post by **kalm** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:56 am

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute…
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source…
I want a chief executive whose public acts are responsible to all groups and obligated to none; who can attend any ceremony, service or dinner his office may appropriately require of him; and whose fulfillment of his presidential oath is not limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual or obligation.

- John F. Kennedy

I’m a Christian first, American second, conservative third and Republican fourth. I’ll tell ya, there are a whole lot of people in this country that feel exactly the same way.

- Ted Cruz

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressiv ... QoI2y.dpuf

Post by **Ibanez** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:03 am

There's nothing wrong with letting your faith guide you. But I do have a problem where you impose your faith onto others through legislation and a perverted view of history.

Pwns · Post by **Pwns** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:20 am

It's one of the left's bugaboos.

Mass gun confiscations are more likely to happen than theocracy. In other words, not going to happen.

YoUDeeMan · Post by **YoUDeeMan** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:03 am

Ivytalk wrote:Ask your wife.

No, that would result in a Sheocracy.

YoUDeeMan · Post by **YoUDeeMan** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:06 am

kalm wrote:
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute…
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source…

- John F. Kennedy

Damn...Trump and Kennedy...sticking it to the Pope!

Chizzang · Post by **Chizzang** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:05 am

Ted Curz:
I'm a Christian fist, Canadian Second, American third...

Truth

Post by **Ibanez** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:19 am

Would this be a Theocracy?

Post by **andy7171** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 am

JohnStOnge wrote:Ok I've seen some of you guys say Cruz wants a Theocracy. Today I was riding around with someone for work purposes and they said Cruz wants a Theocracy. What exactly has Cruz said that make y'all think he wants a Theocracy?

I swear I haven't heard him say anything to suggest he wants a Theocracy. I don't know where the heck this is coming from but it's obviously out there.

So what is it? What has he said?

insert just dback.

Ibanez wrote:

Would this be a Theocracy?

89Hen · Post by **89Hen** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:10 am

kalm wrote:
I want a chief executive whose public acts are responsible to all groups and obligated to none and whose private acts are none of your damn business.

- John F. Kennedy

Post by **kalm** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:34 am

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:

Word.

GrizFanStuckInUtah · Post by **GrizFanStuckInUtah** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:39 am

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote:
Word.

He dipped his wick and the candles burned out......

BDKJMU · Post by **BDKJMU** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:12 pm

kalm wrote:
I’m a Christian first, American second, conservative third and Republican fourth. I’ll tell ya, there are a whole lot of people in this country that feel exactly the same way.

- Ted Cruz
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressiv ... QoI2y.dpuf

And what us wrong with that quote?

Post by **kalm** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:25 pm

BDKJMU wrote:
kalm wrote:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressiv ... QoI2y.dpuf
And what us wrong with that quote?

I'm with Pwns on this in that I don't think it's that big of a deal. And I would expect most religious people to say that. But I suppose it depends on what kind of a Christian you are and how seriously you carry your beliefs. There are obviously some issues where Christianity and the laws conflict. If you place your faith ahead of the law then...

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:10 pm

Ok guys I saw Ibanez say listen to his speeches. I have. That's why I'm asking the question. I haven't heard him say anything to suggest he wants a Theocracy. But, Ibanez, if you want to quote something from one of his speeches that makes you think that I hope you will do it.

The thing about him saying he puts his Christianity first doesn't mean he wants a Theocracy. That's pretty much a given if you're really a Christian. And I think a person can be a Christian without believing the United States should be a Theocracy.

So far I haven't seen anything to support the idea that Cruz wants the United States to be a Theocracy. Again: What I see in Cruz is that he's an Originalist. He believes in proceeding according to the original understanding of the Constitution. Now, that does mean that he does not believe the "Separation of Church and State" as we know it today is really in the Constitution. But he's right about that. Plus in believing that he's no more a believer in Theocracy than the guys who ratified the First Amendment were. He just construes it the way they construed it.

Chizzang · Post by **Chizzang** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:08 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:Ok guys I saw Ibanez say listen to his speeches. I have. That's why I'm asking the question. I haven't heard him say anything to suggest he wants a Theocracy. But, Ibanez, if you want to quote something from one of his speeches that makes you think that I hope you will do it.

The thing about him saying he puts his Christianity first doesn't mean he wants a Theocracy. That's pretty much a given if you're really a Christian. And I think a person can be a Christian without believing the United States should be a Theocracy.

So far I haven't seen anything to support the idea that Cruz wants the United States to be a Theocracy. Again: What I see in Cruz is that he's an Originalist. He believes in proceeding according to the original understanding of the Constitution. Now, that does mean that he does not believe the "Separation of Church and State" as we know it today is really in the Constitution. But he's right about that. Plus in believing that he's no more a believer in Theocracy than the guys who ratified the First Amendment were. He just construes it the way they construed it.

Truth has no agenda... and YOU have an obvious agenda John

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:11 pm

Truth has no agenda... and YOU have an obvious agenda John

My agenda is to find the truth. To stick to the truth.

For example:

The current "Separation of Church and State" concept in the United States does not exist in the language of the Constitution nor does it exist in the understanding people had of the Constitution when it was generated then ratified. It is an invention of the 20th Century Judiciary.

That is the truth.

Chizzang · Post by **Chizzang** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:26 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
Truth has no agenda... and YOU have an obvious agenda John
My agenda is to find the truth. To stick to the truth.

For example:

The current "Separation of Church and State" concept in the United States does not exist in the language of the Constitution nor does it exist in the understanding people had of the Constitution when it was generated then ratified.

That is the truth.

Okay, if you answer these questions "honestly" without quoting Bill Lockwood
I will take your word on your truth statement
If you avoid them like you avoid everything you can't explain - I'm stick with my original assessment

1) What Church or Religion is mentioned in the constitution?
2) How is the Constitution aligned with any religious texts or Religious beliefs?
3) How many times is the word GOD used in the constitution?
4) The word RELIGIOUS is used how many times in the original document?
5) and under what context?

1954 and 1956 have significance to the USA in regards to the word GOD and our National image
prior to that - not so much...

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:42 pm

1) What Church or Religion is mentioned in the constitution?

None.

2) How is the Constitution aligned with any religious texts or Religious beliefs?

The answer to that question could be a long one. For now, suffice to say that the religious beliefs of the people of the day certainly played a role in what they thought of as right and wrong. And the founding document of the nation, the Declaration of Independence, invoked a "Creator" as having "endowed" rights. The Constitution is not the founding document of the nation. It's the Standard Operating Procedures.

3) How many times is the word GOD used in the constitution?

Zero.

4) The word RELIGIOUS is used how many times in the original document?

Once.

5) and under what context?

no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Now, I have a question for you. Here is the Establishment Clause:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

How do you parse that into saying that, for instance, a local public school system cannot as an informal practice read a Christian prayer over the intercom every morning?

If you're intellectually honest, you can't.

Post by **kalm** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:21 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
1) What Church or Religion is mentioned in the constitution?
None.

2) How is the Constitution aligned with any religious texts or Religious beliefs?
The answer to that question could be a long one. For now, suffice to say that the religious beliefs of the people of the day certainly played a role in what they thought of as right and wrong. And the founding document of the nation, the Declaration of Independence, invoked a "Creator" as having "endowed" rights. The Constitution is not the founding document of the nation. It's the Standard Operating Procedures.

3) How many times is the word GOD used in the constitution?
Zero.

4) The word RELIGIOUS is used how many times in the original document?
Once.

5) and under what context?

no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Now, I have a question for you. Here is the Establishment Clause:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
How do you parse that into saying that, for instance, a local public school system cannot as an informal practice read a Christian prayer over the intercom every morning?

If you're intellectually honest, you can't.

1). The Declaration also invoked "the laws of nature" which came before "nature's God" so we are clearly an animistic/pagan nation...if you subscribe to the constitution.

2). That same constitution also guaranteed the rights of the Dearborn Michigan school district to begin the day with a bow to Mecca and call to Allah if they choose. You of course are fine with that...

Chizzang · Post by **Chizzang** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:30 pm

JohnStOnge wrote:
1) What Church or Religion is mentioned in the constitution?
None.

2) How is the Constitution aligned with any religious texts or Religious beliefs?
The answer to that question could be a long one. For now, suffice to say that the religious beliefs of the people of the day certainly played a role in what they thought of as right and wrong. And the founding document of the nation, the Declaration of Independence, invoked a "Creator" as having "endowed" rights. The Constitution is not the founding document of the nation. It's the Standard Operating Procedures.

3) How many times is the word GOD used in the constitution?
Zero.

4) The word RELIGIOUS is used how many times in the original document?
Once.

5) and under what context?

no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Now, I have a question for you. Here is the Establishment Clause:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
How do you parse that into saying that, for instance, a local public school system cannot as an informal practice read a Christian prayer over the intercom every morning?

If you're intellectually honest, you can't.

I like how you answered #2
By referencing The Declaration of Independence
and then admitting that the Constitution is THE OPERATING PROCEDURES

and in the users manual that is our Constitution the answer is - it is NOT aligned with any religion
but you wouldn't answer the question which doesn't surprise me

and sure:
a school can read the Koran or Satanic Verses if they want to...

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