Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by Col Hogan »

dbackjon wrote:
The "Conservatives" on the court have been proven statistically to be almost twice as likely to overturn legislation...

The Conservative Four Horsemen are the real activist judges, if you took the time to look at it...
Please explain how overturning legislation that is unconstitutional makes a judge "activist"...it thinks that exactly what the Founding Fathers envisions a Supreme Court Justice doing...

They did not envision a justice inserting "empathy" into a ruling...there's a reason that statue of Lady Justice has a blindfold on...
“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by dbackjon »

Col Hogan wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
The "Conservatives" on the court have been proven statistically to be almost twice as likely to overturn legislation...

The Conservative Four Horsemen are the real activist judges, if you took the time to look at it...
Please explain how overturning legislation that is unconstitutional makes a judge "activist"...it thinks that exactly what the Founding Fathers envisions a Supreme Court Justice doing...
That seems to be the cry from the right every time a law is overturned...
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by AZGrizFan »

dbackjon wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
I have nothing against her being a woman. Nothing against her being a latino. But be careful what you wish for with the whole "living document" thing. Because as soon as a CONK starts "interpreting" the constitution as a living document, y'all will grab the pitchforks and start descending on Washington!
What is funny is that Alito made a very similiar comment about his upbringing... :lol: 8-) :lol:


The "Conservatives" on the court have been proven statistically to be almost twice as likely to overturn legislation...

The Conservative Four Horsemen are the real activist judges, if you took the time to look at it...
Sorry, Jon. That was before I gave a crap.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by D1B »

AZGrizFan wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
I'm fine with her interpretation of the law, and understanding of the Constitution as a living document. moreover, i LOOOOOVE how she makes conks head spin...
I have nothing against her being a woman. Nothing against her being a latino. But be careful what you wish for with the whole "living document" thing. Because as soon as a CONK starts "interpreting" the constitution as a living document, y'all will grab the pitchforks and start descending on Washington!
Yo, Z, there aint gonna be a conk doing anything of substance in DC for decades. :lol: :lol:

Relax and enjoy the ride. You will die right smack in the middle of final stages of the liberalization of the american government.... your lifelong ideals rotting in the dust bin of history and your children and grandchildren laughing at you.

It's going to be beautiful.
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."

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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by JoltinJoe »

TwinTownBisonFan wrote: and understanding of the Constitution as a living document...
You are a walking book of cliches.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote: and understanding of the Constitution as a living document...
You are a walking book of cliches.
Joe, what's up? You've turned into cs.com's resident schoolyard bully. You're posts of late are nothing but personal attacks.

There is an annoying arrogance about you where anyone who doesn't accept your poorly informed and narrow view of the world is a walking book of cliches or worse.

Joe, you aint that smart. Sorry.
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."

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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
You are a walking book of cliches.
Joe, what's up? You've turned into cs.com's resident schoolyard bully. You're posts of late are nothing but personal attacks.

There is an annoying arrogance about you where anyone who doesn't accept your poorly informed and narrow view of the world is a walking book of cliches or worse.

Joe, you aint that smart. Sorry.
I hate that cliche. It is a crutch used to throw out legitimate constitutional analysis by people and special-interest groups who abuse the court system for a substitute for the legislative process. Brain-dead politicians use it to justify court rulings which are based on nothing more than personal preferences and political expediency. Joe Biden, plagiarist and bottom of the class graduate from a mediocre law school does it all the time.

You don't think I'm so smart. Well I was smart enough to grab a free-ride to college without having to play football. Sit in my con law class sometime.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
D1B wrote:
Joe, what's up? You've turned into cs.com's resident schoolyard bully. You're posts of late are nothing but personal attacks.

There is an annoying arrogance about you where anyone who doesn't accept your poorly informed and narrow view of the world is a walking book of cliches or worse.

Joe, you aint that smart. Sorry.
I hate that cliche. It is a crutch used to throw out legitimate constitutional analysis by people and special-interest groups who abuse the court system for a substitute for the legislative process. Brain-dead politicians use it to justify court rulings which are based on nothing more than personal preferences and political expediency. Joe Biden, plagiarist and bottom of the class graduate from a mediocre law school does it all the time.

You don't think I'm so smart. Well I was smart enough to grab a free-ride to college without having to play football. Sit in my con law class sometime.
Joe, have you published anything? Just curious.
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."

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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I hate that cliche. It is a crutch used to throw out legitimate constitutional analysis by people and special-interest groups who abuse the court system for a substitute for the legislative process. Brain-dead politicians use it to justify court rulings which are based on nothing more than personal preferences and political expediency. Joe Biden, plagiarist and bottom of the class graduate from a mediocre law school does it all the time.

You don't think I'm so smart. Well I was smart enough to grab a free-ride to college without having to play football. Sit in my con law class sometime.
Joe, have you published anything? Just curious.
I've written a movie script ... trying to sell it right now.

I have published articles in legal journals.

I have thought about writing some legal books... but I have too many client demands and they pay the bills you know. So it's a slow process.

I'd like to write to write a book about the impact of footnote four in the Carolene Products decision -- probably the most significant footnote ever, which has really had a remarkable impact on our judicial and political processes. I've even researched it but haven't started writing and don't know when I will.

I would also like to write a book about Justice Black's brilliant dissent in Griswold and his plea that not every "dumb" law is unconstitutional law -- and how accurate his prediction of the political turmoil that would follow the decision in Griswold has turned out to be, if courts were essentially start ruling on the "wisdom" of laws rather than the constitutionality of laws. He feared a disruption to the "tranquility of our nation" and he has been proven correct.

I also have two fictional books that I have started with the working titles: "Rain on the Fourth of July" and "The Autobiography of Jeffrey Allen Borroughs." It will be years before either one of these are finished. It took me five years to finish the movie script.

But I have to do what pays the bills ... got sucked into this at an early age and it is just a time-comsuming occupation.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by dbackjon »

What is footnote four?
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by JoltinJoe »

dbackjon wrote:What is footnote four?
In Carolene Products (1938), the Supreme Court upheld a piece of New Deal economic legislation ... and held that generally speaking, legislative acts are presumptively valid ... This holding was a continued repudiation of the "Lochner Doctrine," under which the Court had for a period of about a quarter of a century struck down progressive economic legislation on the basis that it offended a " fundamental right to contract" (which existed nowhere in the constitution and was a creation of the dubious concept of "substantive due process).

Affixed to the holding that legislative acts were presumptively valid constitutionally was footnote four:

There may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten amendments, which are deemed equally specific when held to be embraced within the Fourteenth. See Stromberg v. California, 283 U. S. 359, 283 U. S. 369-370; Lovell v. Griffin, 303 U. S. 444, 303 U. S. 452.

It is unnecessary to consider now whether legislation which restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation is to be subjected to more exacting judicial scrutiny under the general prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment than are most other types of legislation. On restrictions upon the right to vote, see Nixon v. Herndon, 273 U. S. 536; Nixon v. Condon, 286 U. S. 73; on restraints upon the dissemination of information, see Near v. Minnesota ex rel. Olson, 283 U. S. 697, 283 U. S. 713-714, 283 U. S. 718-720, 283 U. S. 722; Grosjean v. American Press Co., 297 U. S. 233; Lovell v. Griffin, supra; on interferences with political organizations, see Stromberg v. California, supra, 283 U. S. 369; Fiske v. Kansas, 274 U. S. 380; Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357, 274 U. S. 373-378; Herndon v. Lowry, 301 U. S. 242, and see Holmes, J., in Gitlow v. New York, 268 U. S. 652, 268 U. S. 673; as to prohibition of peaceable assembly, see De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U. S. 353, 299 U. S. 365.

Nor need we enquire whether similar considerations enter into the review of statutes directed at particular religious, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510, or national, Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U. S. 390; Bartels v. Iowa, 262 U. S. 404; Farrington v. Tokushige, 273 U. S. 284, or racial minorities, Nixon v. Herndon, supra; Nixon v. Condon, supra: whether prejudice against discrete and insular minorities may be a special condition, which tends seriously to curtail the operation of those political processes ordinarily to be relied upon to protect minorities, and which may call for a correspondingly more searching judicial inquiry. Compare 17 U. S. 428; South Carolina v. Barnwell Bros.,@ 303 U. S. 177, 303 U. S. 184, n 2, and cases cited.


Essentially, as later applied by the Court, this footnote creates a presumption of constitutional illegitimacy of any legislative act which affects the rights of a "discrete and insular minority" or which restricts or impairs what is considered a "fundamental right." This footnote has had a dramatic impact on the relationship between the legislatures and the federal court systems, and has framed much of the political debate of the 20th century as to which social groups are deserving of being a "protected class" entitled to the "strict scrutiny" of legislation as set forth in this footnote.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by AZGrizFan »

D1B wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
I have nothing against her being a woman. Nothing against her being a latino. But be careful what you wish for with the whole "living document" thing. Because as soon as a CONK starts "interpreting" the constitution as a living document, y'all will grab the pitchforks and start descending on Washington!
Yo, Z, there aint gonna be a conk doing anything of substance in DC for decades. :lol: :lol:

Relax and enjoy the ride. You will die right smack in the middle of final stages of the liberalization of the american government.... your lifelong ideals rotting in the dust bin of history and your children and grandchildren laughing at you.

It's going to be beautiful.
DECADES? America doesn't have that kind of attention span. This too, shall pass. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by dbackjon »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Essentially, as later applied by the Court, this footnote creates a presumption of constitutional illegitimacy of any legislative act which affects the rights of a "discrete and insular minority" or which restricts or impairs what is considered a "fundamental right." This footnote has had a dramatic impact on the relationship between the legislatures and the federal court systems, and has framed much of the political debate of the 20th century as to which social groups are deserving of being a "protected class" entitled to the "strict scrutiny" of legislation as set forth in this footnote.
Sounds like a great place to argue for Gay Marriage - DOMA/DADT clear affects the rights of a minority, and impairs fundemental rights.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by Ivytalk »

dbackjon wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
Essentially, as later applied by the Court, this footnote creates a presumption of constitutional illegitimacy of any legislative act which affects the rights of a "discrete and insular minority" or which restricts or impairs what is considered a "fundamental right." This footnote has had a dramatic impact on the relationship between the legislatures and the federal court systems, and has framed much of the political debate of the 20th century as to which social groups are deserving of being a "protected class" entitled to the "strict scrutiny" of legislation as set forth in this footnote.
Sounds like a great place to argue for Gay Marriage - DOMA/DADT clear affects the rights of a minority, and impairs fundemental rights.
The trouble is, dback, that the SCOTUS has never found that gays are a "discrete and insular minority." I've always thought that DOMA is more vulnerable to a Full Faith and Credit attack.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by dbackjon »

Ivytalk wrote:
dbackjon wrote:
Sounds like a great place to argue for Gay Marriage - DOMA/DADT clear affects the rights of a minority, and impairs fundemental rights.
The trouble is, dback, that the SCOTUS has never found that gays are a "discrete and insular minority." I've always thought that DOMA is more vulnerable to a Full Faith and Credit attack.
So what is a discrete and insular minority?

And is marriage a fundamental right? Does the granting of benefits by state and federal government to those married make it one?
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by Ivytalk »

dbackjon wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:
The trouble is, dback, that the SCOTUS has never found that gays are a "discrete and insular minority." I've always thought that DOMA is more vulnerable to a Full Faith and Credit attack.
So what is a discrete and insular minority?

And is marriage a fundamental right? Does the granting of benefits by state and federal government to those married make it one?
Interesting question. I'm not sure the SCOTUS has ever called marriage a fundamental right (gotta re-read Loving v. Virginia). When I was a young lawyer, I co-authored a brief in the SCOTUS on an appeal from the Delaware Supreme Court. The issue was the constitutionality of Delaware's interspousal tort immunity statute (since repealed), which provided that one spouse could not sue the other in tort for damages. The basis that we argued to uphold the law -- as the Delaware court had found --was that allowing one spouse to sue another would have disrupted the marital relationship, which the state had a legitimate interest in upholding. There was Third Circuit authority on point in our favor. The SCOTUS refused the appeal from my state's highest court, meaning that we won. That was over 25 years ago.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by JoltinJoe »

dbackjon wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:
All of these questions are invited by footnote four of Carolene Products. And that is precisely the problem. Carolene Products has invited a number of questions which are, in my opinion, not truly relevant.

Who cares if "gays" are a "discreet and insular" minority and why should they have to show that before some dubious law which affects their ability to fully participate in benefits made available to others be stricken? Let's say "Law A" has the impact of affecting the ability of a gay person to determine who can make health care decisions for their benefit in the event of a disabling injury; however, the government proposes a rational reason for this law. Why should the constitutionality of that law depend on whether gays are a "discreet and insular minority?" If they are, the law fails the strict scrutiny test; but if they aren't, the law passes the "rational basis test." Same law, same impact; but if gays are deemed to be a discreet and insular minority, the law is unconstitutional. I have problems with that. A law should be deemed unconstitutional if it has an unconstitutional impact, regardless of who is "victimized" by the law. Although minorities are beyond a doubt the targets of such laws, their status as minorities shouldn't be relevant. It is the law itself, and the impact of the law, which is relevant.

Fundamentally, Carolene Products creates a subgroup of American citizens who are specially protected and who thus have special standing in our courts to object to laws -- a subgroup of citizens against whom restrictive laws are presumptively invalid. This creates the tendency on the part of special-interest groups to try to portray themselves as victims in order to achieve that special standing; and it invites pretextual arguments on behalf of interest groups as to why they oppose laws, and of behalf of legislatures as to why they enacted laws.

One of the points of the book I hope to write someday is to show how both interest groups and legislatures have often advanced pretextual reasons for their conduct, in light of Carolene Products.

In any event, it has been frequently noted by commentators that groups with special interests frequently depict themselves as "victims," and go to lengths to show how they have been victimized -- the "victim" in American politics. Why has this happened? Because Carolene Products gives victims a leg up in our political and judicial systems.

A law which prevents a person, because of his sexual orientation, from choosing someone other than the closest blood relative to make decisions about his health in the event of a disabling injury is unconsititional, in my opinion, because it restricts his liberty to make such an important decision based on sexual orientation. It makes no difference whether marriage is a fundamental right; or whether gays are a discreet or insular minority. The law is wrong because it has discriminatory impact in and of itself, and deprives a person of a liberty right that other people take for granted.
Last edited by JoltinJoe on Sat May 30, 2009 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sotomayor is God.....Obama Is Christ.....Hillary The Virgin

Post by dbackjon »

Very enlightening, JJ
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