US SOCCER

[BDKJMU]

I turned it off at the 40 minute mark and barely went back to the game. That was just sad to see the reality of how far away the US is in the world.

I tolerate soccer once every 4 years so I haven't watched any of this N/S American tournament. I see the US got their ass kicked and are far away from being able to compete with the top teams in the world.

I remember hearing in the 1980s that there was a massive growth in the amount of youth playing soccer in the US and there woukd be a breakthrough someday where the US could compete with the best in the world. And heard the same thing in the 1990s. And the 2000s. And the 2010s. Have been hearing about a breakthrough in US soccer for going on 30 years and it apparently hasn't happened. So when is it going to happen? The 2020s? 2030s? 2040s? 2050s?

[GannonFan]

I turned it off at the 40 minute mark and barely went back to the game. That was just sad to see the reality of how far away the US is in the world.

I tolerate soccer once every 4 years so I haven't watched any of this N/S American tournament. I see the US got their ass kicked and are far away from being able to compete with the top teams in the world.

I remember hearing in the 1980s that there was a massive growth in the amount of youth playing soccer in the US and there woukd be a breakthrough someday where the US could compete with the best in the world. And heard the same thing in the 1990s. And the 2000s. And the 2010s. Have been hearing about a breakthrough in US soccer for going on 30 years and it apparently hasn't happened. So when is it going to happen? The 2020s? 2030s? 2040s? 2050s?

Well, let's keep it in perspective, there has been incredible improvement on the national scene over the timeframe you're talking about. We went from being a national side that hadn't made the World Cup in something like 50 years to now being a side that is basically a lock every four years to be in the World Cup (barring disaster of course). That's happened in just the last 20 years, so yeah, that's pretty good improvement. And heck, not only are we a lock to be in the World Cup every four years, we're often a very reasonable shot to get out of group play, so we're just not happy to be there, we're generally competitive as well. So again, all that in just the course of 20 years.

As for the being able to compete with the very top of the world, remember that we're talking about a thrashing from Argentina, who probably is the best team in the world currently with the best player in the world currently as well - most people lose to teams like that. Once you get outside of the top 3 or 4, we can hang with, but not readily beat, the top 10. Outside of the top 10, we're pretty even and can probably win 50/50 of those games. We sucked incredibly against Argentina, but we're not bottom of the barrel either.

[89Hen]

But we have enough furriners and kids playing soccer in the US for the last 20 years that we should be able to compete with anyone in the world.

I heard somebody say, but all our best athletes are playing football, baseball, etc... that's a weak excuse. I honestly don't think the worlds best soccer players are world class athletes in general. Yes, they're in good shape, but they don't have to catch, don't have to hit, don't have to grapple (without being called for a foul), don't have to skate... You think Messi would be a good baseball or football player because he can dribble and shoot a soccer ball?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaWSR33HrYQ[/youtube]

[Grizalltheway]

So, let's see Clayton Kershaw score on a free kick like Messi's the other night...

[89Hen]

So, let's see Clayton Kershaw score on a free kick like Messi's the other night...

Does that contradict what I've said?

[Grizalltheway]

So, let's see Clayton Kershaw score on a free kick like Messi's the other night...

Does that contradict what I've said?

Well I think the point is that if people like LeBron James had grown up mastering soccer skills instead of basketball ones, our national team would be much more formidable.

When you look at the best players for Spain, Germany, etc, they all grew up attending the youth academies of big European clubs. America doesn't really have anything that can compare to those in terms of developing world class players from a very young age.

[89Hen]

Does that contradict what I've said?

Well I think the point is that if people like LeBron James had grown up mastering soccer skills instead of basketball ones, our national team would be much more formidable.

Your first post actually supports what I believe... that a great basketball player does not mean he's be a great soccer player (Rinaldo can't throw a ball and Kershaw probably can't make a free kick).

There are some guys who are just good athletes, but do you really think LeBron would be a world class soccer player if he had played soccer his whole life just because he's a great bball player? That's folly. Just watch some episodes of Pros v Joes and see how actually terrible an athlete some of these superstars are. It's laughable.

[GannonFan]

Lebron's probably too big (tall) to have ever been a really good soccer player. You rarely see top flight soccer players much bigger than 6'0" - Ronaldo is an anomaly at 6'1". Messi is 5'7", about an inch smaller than Pele was, and about two inches smaller than what's probably the average (5'9"). Maybe some defenders just a little bigger, but not considerably. Keepers can certainly be much taller. Peter Crouch is easily the tallest one I remember and he was/is 6'7" and he looked ginormous out there and was only ever really good at heading the ball. For a game played at your feet and with the value of small touches in between steps, being tall is a liability, no matter how athletic you are. That would seem to disqualify most NBA players and a lot of NFL players from the pool of potentially good soccer players playing other sports.

[clenz]

The issue with youth development in America is the way Americans view athletes.

Look at the best soccer players in the world, look at the best clubs in the world, and then look what those players look like.

They are 5'7-5'10 and 150-175lbs. Harry Kane is the best striker in England right now and is a giant on the pitch at 6'2. He weights a whopping 143 lbs though.

The youth Amercan development is coaches look at soccer players the same way as football and basketball - "Give me the tallest, biggest and fastest" and seem to completely ignore the finesse and artistry that soccer requires. I've had the argument with FormerPokeCenter on AGS that soccer sucks because it has terrible athletes and since even the best soccer players in the world (Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, Neymar, Kane, Bale, Muller, etc...) don't look like NFL saftey's, linebackers, running backs, etc... they aren't real athletes and to win you need that kind of athlete.

The US needs to focus on foot skill, and artestry, more than size and "athlete" as we know it


Beaten by seconds by Gannon

[Grizalltheway]

How quickly you've forgotten Jan Koller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Koller

[GannonFan]

How quickly you've forgotten Jan Koller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Koller

He's a half inch taller than Crouch, and yes, I did forget him.

[89Hen]

I think you guys are missing the point. It wasn't really could LeBron or an NBA player be good at soccer. It's that it's a red herring that the US isn't good at soccer because our best athletes aren't playing soccer. SOCCER PLAYERS ARE NOT THE BEST ATHLETES. Yes, our youth prospects are watered down because they are playing football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey, lacrosse, etc... but we have SEVEN times the population of an Argentina or Colombia, 17x the population of Chile, 29x the population of Belgium... we should be better.

[clenz]

Yes, our youth prospects are watered down because they are playing football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey, lacrosse, etc... but we have SEVEN times the population of an Argentina or Colombia, 17x the population of Chile, 29x the population of Belgium... we should be better.

This plays a bigger impact thing you think it does, even with the population difference.

It's not just sports, its non athletic things pulling interests away.

What else do Children in Chile, Columbia, Argentina, Belgium (meh example at this), etc... have to look forward too? The entire country revolves around one thing. Hell, the same is true in much of Europe. England doesn't give a fuck less about anything not soccer related. Germany? Nope.

Yes, we have a larger population but realistically by the time other sports all get their kids, other interests are taken out, etc... the US may have a smaller youth population to pull from.

Even those dedicated to soccer have interests elsewhere. None of the other countries have that.

[89Hen]

What else do Children in Chile, Columbia, Argentina, Belgium (meh example at this), etc... have to look forward too? The entire country revolves around one thing. Hell, the same is true in much of Europe. England doesn't give a fuck less about anything not soccer related. Germany? Nope.

Yes, we have a larger population but realistically by the time other sports all get their kids, other interests are taken out, etc... the US may have a smaller youth population to pull from.

Even those dedicated to soccer have interests elsewhere. None of the other countries have that.

In 1994 18% of NHL players were from the US. Last year the number was 25%. I used 1994 because that's when the US hosted the World Cup. If you to back to the early 80's the number was below 12%. Hockey development in the US has skyrocketed while soccer development hasn't moved. The US average world ranking since FIFA started doing them is 19. Today they rank 31.

[tribe_pride]

What else do Children in Chile, Columbia, Argentina, Belgium (meh example at this), etc... have to look forward too? The entire country revolves around one thing. Hell, the same is true in much of Europe. England doesn't give a **** less about anything not soccer related. Germany? Nope.

Yes, we have a larger population but realistically by the time other sports all get their kids, other interests are taken out, etc... the US may have a smaller youth population to pull from.

Even those dedicated to soccer have interests elsewhere. None of the other countries have that.

In 1994 18% of NHL players were from the US. Last year the number was 25%. I used 1994 because that's when the US hosted the World Cup. If you to back to the early 80's the number was below 12%. Hockey development in the US has skyrocketed while soccer development hasn't moved. The US average world ranking since FIFA started doing them is 19. Today they rank 31.

Although next month, we will be right back around 19 (maybe slightly worse) after the Copa and Euro results are posted. That 19 also includes when we were extremely misranked at around 7 or 8 in the world at one point. FIFA rankings are not very good.

[clenz]

In 1994 18% of NHL players were from the US. Last year the number was 25%. I used 1994 because that's when the US hosted the World Cup. If you to back to the early 80's the number was below 12%. Hockey development in the US has skyrocketed while soccer development hasn't moved. The US average world ranking since FIFA started doing them is 19. Today they rank 31.

Although next month, we will be right back around 19 (maybe slightly worse) after the Copa and Euro results are posted. That 19 also includes when we were extremely misranked at around 7 or 8 in the world at one point. FIFA rankings are not very good.

This.

The US was in the semis of Copa America
In the 2014 WC was 2 dumb plays by the bald reject away from beating Portugal.
1 goal away from beating Germany
and real damn close to beating Belgium while playing park the bus the entire game.

To say we aren't close, simply because shit went pear shaped against Argentina is just silly

[89Hen]

In 1994 18% of NHL players were from the US. Last year the number was 25%. I used 1994 because that's when the US hosted the World Cup. If you to back to the early 80's the number was below 12%. Hockey development in the US has skyrocketed while soccer development hasn't moved. The US average world ranking since FIFA started doing them is 19. Today they rank 31.

Although next month, we will be right back around 19 (maybe slightly worse) after the Copa and Euro results are posted. That 19 also includes when we were extremely misranked at around 7 or 8 in the world at one point. FIFA rankings are not very good.

So overall no improvement since 1994.

[89Hen]

Although next month, we will be right back around 19 (maybe slightly worse) after the Copa and Euro results are posted. That 19 also includes when we were extremely misranked at around 7 or 8 in the world at one point. FIFA rankings are not very good.

This.

The US was in the semis of Copa America
In the 2014 WC was 2 dumb plays by the bald reject away from beating Portugal.
1 goal away from beating Germany
and real damn close to beating Belgium while playing park the bus the entire game.

To say we aren't close, simply because shit went pear shaped against Argentina is just silly

Close to what? Not losing as badly?

Look, I realize I'm a typical "I want it now" American, but you'd be stupid not to want that. I also know ice hockey and soccer are different, but another example of how far the US has come there...

World Junior Championships, number of medals for the US...

1974 - 2006: 4
Last 10 years: 5

[bandl]

[
To say we aren't close, simply because shit went pear shaped against Argentina is just silly

I assume you watched the game...it really was a game of men vs. boys out there. Granted, Argentina right now seems to be head and shoulders above anyone right now. But that game was an absolute joke, and showed how far the US has to go if they really want to play with the adults. Yeah, they can play a good game sometimes, but when a great team like Argentina wants to make the US its bitch...well, that's exactly what happened. The US didn't have the balls to play with them. They didn't even look like they wanted to play with them the way they refused to actually possess the ball.

The US overall as a whole (excluding the Argentina raping this week) does look better than say 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, but when it really counts they just aren't in the same league as the big boys. They just aren't. A decent match here and there just isn't enough. It really isn't.

[Grizalltheway]

Isn't it

[bandl]

It is. It really is.

[89Hen]

The US overall as a whole (excluding the Argentina raping this week) does look better than say 20 years ago, even 10 years ago

No, it doesn't. That's the point. I would say 2002-09 was the pinnacle of US soccer, when it looked like we were putting El Tri behind us for good and Clenzy mentioned close ones, there's nothing closer than losing 1-0 to finalist Germany on a hand ball that wasn't called and then moving on the finals of the Confederations Cup beating world #1 Spain in the semis. All downhill since then.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg3psAYfOv8[/youtube]

[Ivytalk]

It is. It really is.

You sound like JSO.

[BDKJMU]

Lebron's probably too big (tall) to have ever been a really good soccer player. You rarely see top flight soccer players much bigger than 6'0" - Ronaldo is an anomaly at 6'1". Messi is 5'7", about an inch smaller than Pele was, and about two inches smaller than what's probably the average (5'9"). Maybe some defenders just a little bigger, but not considerably. Keepers can certainly be much taller. Peter Crouch is easily the tallest one I remember and he was/is 6'7" and he looked ginormous out there and was only ever really good at heading the ball. For a game played at your feet and with the value of small touches in between steps, being tall is a liability, no matter how athletic you are. That would seem to disqualify most NBA players and a lot of NFL players from the pool of potentially good soccer players playing other sports.

Its played at your head, too, it seems like from limited watching. Height is an advantage in head balls, no?

Last time I saw a whole US soccer game was vs Belgium. Didn't Belgium have some dude who was something like 6'4"/215ish who trucked one of the US players before scoring the game winning goal? Looked a physical speciman, man vs boys vs the US players is what I remember..I remember thinking all our guys like that are playing football..

[UNI88]

When you look at the best players for Spain, Germany, etc, they all grew up attending the youth academies of big European clubs. America doesn't really have anything that can compare to those in terms of developing world class players from a very young age.

I think that's changing. I know the Chicago Fire have major youth development programs that they've started and I believe many other MLS teams have as well. The quality of players and teams at the top level of youth soccer in the US is better now than it was 10-20 years ago.

Isn't it a little ironic that a golfer is questioning the athleticism of soccer players? And baseball players aren't the best comparison. There have been a lot of All Star baseball players whose athleticism you could question.

Just because you don't appreciate soccer and the athleticism it requires doesn't mean it isn't there. It's a lot easier to catch a ball, dribble and shoot it with your hands than it is to trap, dribble and shoot with your feet.