In defense of an asshole... (and shouting down)

[Chizzang]

Not long ago Cluck posted a controversial opinion on Military Service...
and the response on here was exactly like the Yale students response to the professor who said that if you're offended by a Halloween costume - you have two choices 1) Ignore it or 2) Communicate like an adult what your frustrations are with that person

Somebody on here posted that incident at Yale
and everybody proceeded to make fun of the stupid Liberal Yale pussies who got pissed at the professor for telling them like it is... As an adult you "move on" or "express your well thought out response"



and yet here we are...
Exhibiting the identical behavior as the Liberal Yale pussies

It's hard to remain adult and civil when somebody pisses you off
Regardless of how dumb the reasons you're pissed might be - or - how valid
There is no difference because "validity" is in the eye of the beholder

And if they (those you disagree with) can make a reasonable argument
and you're a blathering pissed off snarling dog... You lose

[CAA Flagship]

Not long ago Cluck posted a controversial opinion on Military Service...
and the response on here was exactly like the Yale students response to the professor who said that if you're offended by a Halloween costume - you have two choices 1) Ignore it or 2) Communicate like an adult what your frustrations are with that person

Somebody on here posted that incident at Yale
and everybody proceeded to make fun of the stupid Liberal Yale pussies who got pissed at the professor for telling them like it is... As an adult you "move on" or "express your well thought out response"



and yet here we are...
Exhibiting the identical behavior as the Liberal Yale pussies

It's hard to remain adult and civil when somebody pisses you off
Regardless of how dumb the reasons you're pissed might be - or - how valid
There is no difference because "validity" is in the eye of the beholder

And if they (those you disagree with) can make a reasonable argument
and you're a blathering pissed of snarling dog... You lose

*

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

What if you never act grown up and just say things that come to mind in response to liberal pussies? You know, like CNN does all day to the GOP?

Is that OK?

[Pwns]

Yeah, it's not often people get a little miffed with things on this board...

But at least no one is going to call for Cluck to be banned, let alone for him to lose his job. And no one here seems to think we have a right to not be offended.

[Chizzang]

What if you never act grown up and just say things that come to mind in response to liberal pussies? You know, like CNN does all day to the GOP?

Is that OK?

It's all "okay" Alpha
Almost everybody acts the same regardless of how tough or honest
or whatever word they like to call themselves...

My point is:
Those Liberal Pussies at Yale we were so happy to make fun of
Aren't any different than the tough talking non-PC conservatives on this forum

It all just comes down to what button you press

[Ivytalk]

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to be an azzhole. -- Patrick Hussein Henry, Esq.

[AZGrizFan]

Jesus, what a bunch of sensitive douches.

Alls I did was agree with Cluck that he's an asshole.

I mean, I love the guy and all, but he said it first.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

What if you never act grown up and just say things that come to mind in response to liberal pussies? You know, like CNN does all day to the GOP?

Is that OK?

It's all "okay" Alpha
Almost everybody acts the same regardless of how tough or honest
or whatever word they like to call themselves...

My point is:
Those Liberal Pussies at Yale we were so happy to make fun of
Aren't any different than the tough talking non-PC conservatives on this forum

It all just comes down to what button you press

I disagree

[Chizzang]

Jesus, what a bunch of sensitive douches.

Alls I did was agree with Cluck that he's an asshole.

I mean, I love the guy and all, but he said it first.

Yup,
I only "like" about 50% of what Cluck says
and I dislike about 25%
and I down right hate about 25% of it...

But I rarely disagree with him - even when I hate what he's saying

[CID1990]

Jesus, what a bunch of sensitive douches.

Alls I did was agree with Cluck that he's an asshole.

I mean, I love the guy and all, but he said it first.

Yup,
I only "like" about 50% of what Cluck says
and I dislike about 25%
and I down right hate about 25% of it...

But I rarely disagree with him - even when I hate what he's saying

I must have missed the thread


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[kalm]

What I like about Cluck is that he at least knows he's an asshole.

[YoUDeeMan]

What I like about Cluck is that he at least knows he's an asshole.

Nah...but I know some people think I am an asshole...at least when there is a bee in their bonnet, so I thought I'd get that out of the way.

BTW, it is good to see that there are some thinkers on this site. Too few, though.

93 posted a good PBS video...and there was a lot of focus on the warrior mentality. It also alluded to the idea that a lot of those recruits ask themselves very early on, WTF are they doing there. <---- No kidding.

There was a LOT of psychological manipulation in that PBS video/training. Always has been in military training. Breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team, and making you believe you are the point of a sword or some other, "in the know/head of the pack" group.

Oddly enough, that sure sounds a lot like some tactics used by religious fanatics and other whack jobs, too.

Now, I know that ^ line will draw some flack, but it is what it is. And the quick, knee jerk, aggressive defense of the military by some folks, often without actually trying to understand what is being said, is another example of the results of such, "training." Hilarious stuff about not being brave enough/bad enough/unselfish enough to help others. Plenty of books written about that type of thinking...and a lot of funny movies, too.

I could add a post on the other thread, and might, but it is funny as hell that someone looking a that, "Which way would you run" advertisement would cite the desire to deliver aid to others as reasoning for joining. The same idea was briefly floated in 93's video. But, the ad begins with the sound of gunfire, shows armed marines, and talks about tyranny...yeah, seems like a public service national disaster food drop to me.

Oh, one of the best lines of that PBS video was that one guy was proud that he served his country, but he wasn't proud of the things he had to do to serve his country. And that was in WWII against an enemy that attacked us. War is Hell...but from many written accounts of veterans, it is a little more Hellish when you don't know why you are fighting and the situation on the ground doesn't exactly match what is being sold to the peeps back home. But, as a Marine, you give up your right to ask, "What if?" At least according to some jokers around here.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk[/youtube]



Anyway, good to have a discussion on here.

[AZGrizFan]

There was a LOT of psychological manipulation in that PBS video/training. Always has been in military training. Breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team, and making you believe you are the point of a sword or some other, "in the know/head of the pack" group.

Oddly enough, that sure sounds a lot like some tactics used by religious fanatics and other whack jobs, too.

Cluck, not sure if you ever went through any type of basic training, but I can assure you the "breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team" has a far larger purpose than getting them to think they're at the point of the sword.

A) Not every military action is aiding some reprehensible despot who we're propping up while killing women and children.

B) That being said, when the shit DOES hit the fan, all that "rebuilding to think as a team" shit comes in pretty fucking handy....trust me, what you DO NOT have time for in a crisis situation is a squad/division/boat full of Chiefs without any Indians. Assuming the orders aren't unlawful, you need people who follow orders instantaneously, without questioning every damned thing. Sounds "cultish", I know, but in a crisis scenario it's the only thing that works.

I was fortunate in 22 years to never find myself in a combat situation where I was firing at (or being fired upon by) the enemy, but I had plenty of situations at sea where I needed my crew, my division or my bridge watch team to act instaneously, upon my order, without questioning it. Under duress, it's absolutely imperative the TEAM operate as a well oiled machine. May not fit your narrative, but it is what it is.

[Bisonfanatical]

In the 70's, I was trained to know that you do not have to follow orders you know to be unlawful.

If we don't have the rule of law then what have we become.

I agree that you need strong loyalty from each other in the military .. there is no time to take "surveys" about how you "feel" on this decision.

I have a lot of respect for our armed services .. I do not have that same respect for our leaders who have taken 9-11 And use it to break down our Constitution. We have become a type of Germany where we are unseating and assasinating soverign leaders with out any legal right to do so. We are toppling governments that kept order within their borders and are 100% responsible for the mess over there, and at the same time we take the stand that Islam is a religion of peace ... rotf

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[93henfan]

There was a LOT of psychological manipulation in that PBS video/training. Always has been in military training. Breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team, and making you believe you are the point of a sword or some other, "in the know/head of the pack" group.

Oddly enough, that sure sounds a lot like some tactics used by religious fanatics and other whack jobs, too.

Cluck, not sure if you ever went through any type of basic training, but I can assure you the "breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team" has a far larger purpose than getting them to think they're at the point of the sword.

A) Not every military action is aiding some reprehensible despot who we're propping up while killing women and children.

B) That being said, when the shit DOES hit the fan, all that "rebuilding to think as a team" shit comes in pretty fucking handy....trust me, what you DO NOT have time for in a crisis situation is a squad/division/boat full of Chiefs without any Indians. Assuming the orders aren't unlawful, you need people who follow orders instantaneously, without questioning every damned thing. Sounds "cultish", I know, but in a crisis scenario it's the only thing that works.

I was fortunate in 22 years to never find myself in a combat situation where I was firing at (or being fired upon by) the enemy, but I had plenty of situations at sea where I needed my crew, my division or my bridge watch team to act instaneously, upon my order, without questioning it. Under duress, it's absolutely imperative the TEAM operate as a well oiled machine. May not fit your narrative, but it is what it is.

Precisely. We'll let the hippies go on thinking it's a baby-killing cult of neanderthals who had no job options out of high school. It fits their narrative. Thank God the country has never had to depend on them for anything of significance.

[CAA Flagship]

There was a LOT of psychological manipulation in that PBS video/training. Always has been in military training. Breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team, and making you believe you are the point of a sword or some other, "in the know/head of the pack" group.

Oddly enough, that sure sounds a lot like some tactics used by religious fanatics and other whack jobs, too.

Cluck, not sure if you ever went through any type of basic training, but I can assure you the "breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team" has a far larger purpose than getting them to think they're at the point of the sword.

A) Not every military action is aiding some reprehensible despot who we're propping up while killing women and children.

B) That being said, when the shit DOES hit the fan, all that "rebuilding to think as a team" shit comes in pretty fucking handy....trust me, what you DO NOT have time for in a crisis situation is a squad/division/boat full of Chiefs without any Indians. Assuming the orders aren't unlawful, you need people who follow orders instantaneously, without questioning every damned thing. Sounds "cultish", I know, but in a crisis scenario it's the only thing that works.

I was fortunate in 22 years to never find myself in a combat situation where I was firing at (or being fired upon by) the enemy, but I had plenty of situations at sea where I needed my crew, my division or my bridge watch team to act instaneously, upon my order, without questioning it. Under duress, it's absolutely imperative the TEAM operate as a well oiled machine. May not fit your narrative, but it is what it is.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure of another way to "train" that will have an equal effect. You wouldn't let 18-22 year olds make critical business decisions in their first few years on a job, so I'm not sure why you would let them make their own decisions on a battlefield where lives are at stake.

Cluck, I need to hear more from you on this. It's just not making sense. What is your alternative plan?

[Ibanez]

Cluck, not sure if you ever went through any type of basic training, but I can assure you the "breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team" has a far larger purpose than getting them to think they're at the point of the sword.

A) Not every military action is aiding some reprehensible despot who we're propping up while killing women and children.

B) That being said, when the shit DOES hit the fan, all that "rebuilding to think as a team" shit comes in pretty fucking handy....trust me, what you DO NOT have time for in a crisis situation is a squad/division/boat full of Chiefs without any Indians. Assuming the orders aren't unlawful, you need people who follow orders instantaneously, without questioning every damned thing. Sounds "cultish", I know, but in a crisis scenario it's the only thing that works.

I was fortunate in 22 years to never find myself in a combat situation where I was firing at (or being fired upon by) the enemy, but I had plenty of situations at sea where I needed my crew, my division or my bridge watch team to act instaneously, upon my order, without questioning it. Under duress, it's absolutely imperative the TEAM operate as a well oiled machine. May not fit your narrative, but it is what it is.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure of another way to "train" that will have an equal effect. You wouldn't let 18-22 year olds make critical business decisions in their first few years on a job, so I'm not sure why you would let them make their own decisions on a battlefield where lives are at stake.

Cluck, I need to hear more from you on this. It's just not making sense. What is your alternative plan?

That doesn't fit the narrative. I guess...some form of altruism in our military actions/responses?

[andy7171]

I find the faster you realize that you ARE an asshole, the free-er you are.

I'm more or less a nice guy, and well intentioned. But I can be a real dick too. I mean asshole.

[YoUDeeMan]

There was a LOT of psychological manipulation in that PBS video/training. Always has been in military training. Breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team, and making you believe you are the point of a sword or some other, "in the know/head of the pack" group.

Oddly enough, that sure sounds a lot like some tactics used by religious fanatics and other whack jobs, too.

Cluck, not sure if you ever went through any type of basic training, but I can assure you the "breaking people down, isolating them as a group, rebuilding them to think as a team" has a far larger purpose than getting them to think they're at the point of the sword.

A) Not every military action is aiding some reprehensible despot who we're propping up while killing women and children.

B) That being said, when the shit DOES hit the fan, all that "rebuilding to think as a team" shit comes in pretty fucking handy....trust me, what you DO NOT have time for in a crisis situation is a squad/division/boat full of Chiefs without any Indians. Assuming the orders aren't unlawful, you need people who follow orders instantaneously, without questioning every damned thing. Sounds "cultish", I know, but in a crisis scenario it's the only thing that works.

I was fortunate in 22 years to never find myself in a combat situation where I was firing at (or being fired upon by) the enemy, but I had plenty of situations at sea where I needed my crew, my division or my bridge watch team to act instaneously, upon my order, without questioning it. Under duress, it's absolutely imperative the TEAM operate as a well oiled machine. May not fit your narrative, but it is what it is.

Oh, I get the need for training. Police, firefighters, any highly competitive athletic individual or team member, doctors, EMTs...the list goes on. You need people to fall back on their training, both mentally and physically, when times get tough. There is no doubt about that. In a crisis, you learn who has the ability to stay calm and minimize damage so that you have a future. Some people panic in such situations while others focus on the tasks at hand because if you know you do your part, and your teammates do theirs, that is the best chance you have at getting through. Of course, you learn a lot about people, and yourself, while in training...things you want to find out BEFORE the shit hits the fan. No training is perfect...but it is necessary if you want to minimize errors.

To respond to your points:

A) Obviously. But that doesn't excuse the other actions.

b) Yup...if people are questioning every decision DURING a crisis, you will waste time which can lead to lost lives.

So, we agree on a lot. But none of what you wrote negates what I've said.

There have been very few times when our military was needed for a Nobel Peace Prize winning effort. More often than not, our military is used for profit in the name of keeping 'Merica strong. The use of our military has been a sham that has benefited the wealthy while killing the very people that we are supposed to be protecting (the boy next door...ours and theirs).

Perhaps in the past, people could have not known the above. When our country told Americans that Hitler was going to cross the Atlantic and put Nazi flags up all over America, I could see the farm boys lining up to go to war. Korea? Damned Chinks trying to take over the world. Who would argue with that?

But in today's world, with the continued consistent misuse of our armed forces, and the wealth of information available to anyone who is willing to read...from Vietnam to...cripes, just about any engagement in the last several decades, no one should be happy about the way our military is used.

Which brings us back to the statement that I question why anyone would choose the military these days knowing that you can be called up at anytime to kill some person (or be killed by that person) half way across the world when that person isn't any threat to us. For most people, there has to be a better decision.

[YoUDeeMan]

In the 70's, I was trained to know that you do not have to follow orders you know to be unlawful.

If we don't have the rule of law then what have we become.

I agree that you need strong loyalty from each other in the military .. there is no time to take "surveys" about how you "feel" on this decision.

I have a lot of respect for our armed services .. I do not have that same respect for our leaders who have taken 9-11 And use it to break down our Constitution. We have become a type of Germany where we are unseating and assasinating soverign leaders with out any legal right to do so. We are toppling governments that kept order within their borders and are 100% responsible for the mess over there, and at the same time we take the stand that Islam is a religion of peace ... rotf

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Lawful? According to what/whose laws?

That is the thing...to a good chunk of this world's population, what we are doing is completely unlawful (and immoral). What would Jesus do?

[YoUDeeMan]

My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure of another way to "train" that will have an equal effect. You wouldn't let 18-22 year olds make critical business decisions in their first few years on a job, so I'm not sure why you would let them make their own decisions on a battlefield where lives are at stake.

Cluck, I need to hear more from you on this. It's just not making sense. What is your alternative plan?

You change the leadership and the way we make decisions to go to war.

Uh, wait...several of our dictators...errrr, Presidents have already done that. Unfortunately, in the wrong direction. We go to war on limited information and with very few people questioning why.

We have a volunteer army. If everyone stopped volunteering, it would be interesting to see what happened. Of course, the poor economy helps push a lot of people into the military. So does the call for war/patriotism against fluffed up and imagined enemies (plenty of 18 year old testosterone filled fools - yes fools, want to go kick some ass, no matter whose are they are kicking). Scream and protest all you (not you specifically...others who said that many kids don't go because of having no where else to go) want, the numbers don't lie. Nor do the ads. The military doesn't spend millions on ads to be ineffective...they know their audience well.

As for other solutions, some countries have a mandatory draft. If everyone were drafted (which would also be the case if no one volunteered), my bet is that you'd get a hell of a lot more participation in honest decisions regarding going to war, whether that is through Congressional action or through the ballot box.

Either way, I'd like to see a big change in how our military is used.

[YoUDeeMan]

I'm more or less a nice guy, and well intentioned. But I can be a real dick too. I mean asshole.

I've used almost those exact line many times...just did it again while discussing some folk's performances recently.

[Chizzang]

My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure of another way to "train" that will have an equal effect. You wouldn't let 18-22 year olds make critical business decisions in their first few years on a job, so I'm not sure why you would let them make their own decisions on a battlefield where lives are at stake.

Cluck, I need to hear more from you on this. It's just not making sense. What is your alternative plan?

You change the leadership and the way we make decisions to go to war.

Uh, wait...several of our dictators...errrr, Presidents have already done that. Unfortunately, in the wrong direction. We go to war on limited information and with very few people questioning why.

We have a volunteer army. If everyone stopped volunteering, it would be interesting to see what happened. Of course, the poor economy helps push a lot of people into the military. So does the call for war/patriotism against fluffed up and imagined enemies (plenty of 18 year old testosterone filled fools - yes fools, want to go kick some ass, no matter whose are they are kicking). Scream and protest all you (not you specifically...others who said that many kids don't go because of having no where else to go) want, the numbers don't lie. Nor do the ads. The military doesn't spend millions on ads to be ineffective...they know their audience well.

As for other solutions, some countries have a mandatory draft. If everyone were drafted (which would also be the case if no one volunteered), my bet is that you'd get a hell of a lot more participation in honest decisions regarding going to war, whether that is through Congressional action or through the ballot box.

Either way, I'd like to see a big change in how our military is used.

This ^
Because of Vietnam and the Draft we will never go back to the way it was
And that's the draft I'm talking about

Once you force citizens to fight and die
They (the people) have the full power to control the events we become involved in

The volunteer military allows our Federal Government and it's cohorts in resource gathering
To say: You don't like it then don't join
Whilst endlessly beating the drum of patriotism and Nationalism
and creating "bad guys" worth dying for

Notably Not:
Saudi Arabia / North Korea etc.
And handing out a model for democracy that nobody wants or is asking for
But it sells wars at home

[Bisonfanatical]

By lawful I am referring to the same oath taken by military AND leaders, to preserve, protect, and defend the "constitution of the U.S." ... but I agree that they cloud this issue.

My views are not based on the views of the world, just the Constitution.

Lol ... as for that part about "Jesus", I don't know if you believe that or it is meant as tongue in cheek?
2000 years ago there was no Hebrew Messiah named "Jesus" because there was NO letter "j" in the ancient Hebrew, Greek, or Latin ... this is problematic to say the least, I do believe in this Messiah, but the name above all names is Yeshua.

We ususlly believe what we are taught with out checking to see if it is true.


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[Ibanez]

I find the faster you realize that you ARE an asshole, the free-er you are.

I'm more or less a nice guy, and well intentioned. But I can be a real dick too. I mean asshole.

This is accurate.